"Works Salvation"

[civic]

Not being water baptized is rejecting the gospel of Christ 2 Thess 1:8.

--what is the gospel? 1 Cor 15:2-4 the gospel is the death, burial and resurrection of Christ.

How then does one obey these historical facts about Christ?

Rom 6:2-5 when one submits to water baptism, the old man of sin must DIE, one then is BURIED in a watery grave and then is RAISED UP FROM (resurrected) that watery grave to walk in newness of life. So there is a death burial and resurrection when one is water baptized and is HOW one obeys the gospel per 2 Thess 1:8. It is not by accident or coincidence there is a death, burial and resurrection when one is water baptized, that is how God planned and designed it to be.

Rom 6:2,4
"God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?"
"Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life."

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Again, 1 Cor 1:13 Paul said one must be baptized in the name of Christ to be "of Christ".

Christ being crucified alone does not make one 'of Christ' for it takes BOTH Christ's crucifixion AND one being baptized in Christ to be of Christ. The phrase "in the name of" is a legal term. I buy a new car then I must go and register that new car "in the name of Seabass" and that shows my ownership of the car. Those who have been baptized in the name of Christ are then in Christ's ownership. Those that have not been baptized are not in His ownership.

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The Bible does not say that salvation is received by grace through faith ALONE...you added the word 'alone'. Faith and faith alone are two totally different things. Faith justifies Rom 5:1 where faith alone does not justify James 2:24. If faith and faith alone were the same things then both would justify or neither one would justify.

I believe water baptism should be the first act of obedience for every believer. Its an outward expression of an inward reality that happened at the moment on e became born again, a new creation in Christ. It identifies us as a follower of Christ, one who had place their faith in Him alone for their salvation and it an external witness of what has taken place in the believers heart- God has given them a new heart. It symbolizes we have been buried with Him in Baptism going under crucifying the flesh the old man, and being raised of in Resurrection life and power with the new man, new heart, new Master/ Lord and we are living for Him. Dead to self and alive to God. This teaching is lacking in our modern/western church where Jesus is Lord/Master and we are His doulos( slaves). The culture has robbed the church of slave/Master relationship and its even effected our modern translations of the Greek word doulos and they have removed slave and replaced in with servant which gives it an entirely different meaning and softens the word.

On a side note have you been fishing recently?

 

[Seabass]

From the bible:
The Bible directly separates faith from works:

Faith is a work.
Mk 2:5
"When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee." What Jesus saw was the work those men did in getting the sick man to Him and that work is called faith.

DOES YOURS SAY SOMETHING DIFFERENT?

Paul literally contrasts “working” WITH “believing”

If believing = working, then this verse makes no sense.

Again, from the bible.

Salvation comes through faith (not before it)​

Ephesians 2:8–9 “For by grace are ye saved through faith… not of works”

Grace is the source. Faith is the means. Not.......

Grace instead of faith BUT Grace through faith

From the bible, Faith is required but is not meritorious

Not of works in Eph 2:9 refers to works of merit, not obedience.

In Paul's Roman epistle Paul wrote about obedience to the faith, "obedience unto righteousness", how the Romans obeyed from the heart THEN freed from sin,(Rom 6:16-18) how the Jews were lost because they would not submit to God's righteousness Rom 10:3) would not obey the gospel (Rom 10:16).

The Holy SPirit Who inspired Paul would then turn around and eliminate obedience from being saved.

Acts 16:31 “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved”

John 3:16 “Whosoever believeth… shall not perish”

Romans 5:1 “Therefore being justified by faith…”

These are not suggestions ....... they ARE conditions plainly stated.

YOU CAN SUM THESE UP IN WHAT HAS BEEN SAID BEFORE....

then there is Lk 13:3 where Christ required one to repent or perish and Mt 10:32-33 He required one confess Him or He would not confess that one before His Father and He required baptism (Mk 16:16). The sum of God's word shows that salvation requires more than just a mental assent of the mind, of a "mental agreement" with certain facts and nothing more.

Scripture never defines faith as a work, Romans 4:5 actually contrasts the two: “to him that worketh not, but believeth.” If believing were a work, that verse would collapse.

The Bible consistently says we are saved by grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8–9), and that justification happens when we believe (Romans 5:1). Faith is not something that earns salvation,it is simply trusting in what Christ has already done.

Receiving a gift is not a work, and neither is believing.

If I was giving you a car as a free gift and in order for you to receive that free gift you must go to the car dealership on Main Street and ask for a salesman named Fred and he will give you the keys and title to the car, then can you receive my free gift by doing nothing? by simply having faith alone you will get the free car by doing nothing more?

 

[civic]

Rom 5:18-19 are if-then type statements...if the (a) first half of the verse is true then (b) the second half is equally true.

If the "condition" Adam created by sinning means ALL are UNIVERSALLY UNCONDITIONALLY made sinners then it is equally true the "condition" Christ created by dying on the cross means that ALL will UNIVERSALLY UNCONDITIONALLY be made righteous and your ARE pushing Universalism.

Again, NOTHING in the context remotely suggest people are unconditionally made sinners or UNconditionally made righteous. People are CONDITIONALLY made righteous by obedience....hence Paul says serving "obedience unto righteousness" (Rom 6:16)

BTW good to see you !!

 

[Seabass]

I believe water baptism should be the first act of obedience for every believer. Its an outward expression of an inward reality that happened at the moment on e became born again, a new creation in Christ. It identifies us as a follower of Christ, one who had place their faith in Him alone for their salvation and it an external witness of what has taken place in the believers heart- God has given them a new heart. It symbolizes we have been buried with Him in Baptism going under crucifying the flesh the old man, and being raised of in Resurrection life and power with the new man, new heart, new Master/ Lord and we are living for Him. Dead to self and alive to God. This teaching is lacking in our modern/western church where Jesus is Lord/Master and we are His doulos( slaves). The culture has robbed the church of slave/Master relationship and its even effected our modern translations of the Greek word doulos and they have removed slave and replaced in with servant which gives it an entirely different meaning and softens the word.

On a side note have you been fishing recently?

A person does not have a NT belief unless/until they repent, confess and are baptized. Without an active belief in repenting, confessing Christ and being baptized that is a dead belief.


I do all my fishing these days at Long John Silver's.

 

[Seabass]

BTW good to see you !!

 

[civic]

A person does not have a NT belief unless/until they repent, confess and are baptized. Without an active belief in repenting, confessing Christ and being baptized that is a dead belief.


I do all my fishing these days at Long John Silver's.

I agree repentance is involved 100 %

 

[civic]

I do all my fishing these days at Long John Silver's.

Hilarious

My brother fishes all of the time so I get fresh fish from him.

 

[Doug Brents]

I believe water baptism should be the first act of obedience for every believer. Its an outward expression of an inward reality that happened at the moment on e became born again, a new creation in Christ.

Where in Scripture is this language, or anything even remotely similar, used?

It identifies us as a follower of Christ, one who had place their faith in Him alone for their salvation and it an external witness of what has taken place in the believers heart- God has given them a new heart. It symbolizes we have been buried with Him in Baptism going under crucifying the flesh the old man, and being raised of in Resurrection life and power with the new man, new heart, new Master/ Lord and we are living for Him.

Rom 6 does not portray the image you are describing here. It says that it is IN baptism that we die to sin, and from baptism that we are raised to new life.

Dead to self and alive to God. This teaching is lacking in our modern/western church where Jesus is Lord/Master and we are His doulos (slaves). The culture has robbed the church of slave/Master relationship and its even effected our modern translations of the Greek word doulos and they have removed slave and replaced in with servant which gives it an entirely different meaning and softens the word.

I agree that we are slaves, not "paid" servants. We are either slaves of Jesus, or slaves of Satan, and there is no in between or anyone who is not a slave of one or the other.

But we do not change from being Satan's slave to being Jesus' slave just because we "believe" in who Jesus is. Read John 12:42-43. The clear indication is that those who "believed" in Jesus but did not confess Him, because "they loved the approval of people rather than the approval of God.", were not accepted by God; they were not reborn.

 

[civic]

Where in Scripture is this language, or anything even remotely similar, used?

Rom 6 does not portray the image you are describing here. It says that it is IN baptism that we die to sin, and from baptism that we are raised to new life.

I agree that we are slaves, not "paid" servants. We are either slaves of Jesus, or slaves of Satan, and there is no in between or anyone who is not a slave of one or the other.

But we do not change from being Satan's slave to being Jesus' slave just because we "believe" in who Jesus is. Read John 12:42-43. The clear indication is that those who "believed" in Jesus but did not confess Him, because "they loved the approval of people rather than the approval of God.", were not accepted by God; they were not reborn.

a slave obeys his master. no obedience=no salvation, no life, no love etc.......

Jesus said if you love Me you will obey/keep My commandments. John 14:15, cf Matthew 7:21, 1 John 2:3-5,

 

[FreeInChrist]

Faith is a work.
Mk 2:5
"When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee." What Jesus saw was the work those men did in getting the sick man to Him and that work is called faith.

WOW... you single handedly managed to explaint to me why people will leave someone who has fallen on the street alone and walk on.... THEY DO NOT WANT TO BE ACCUSED OF WORKS in helping another human being lest they loose their salvation.....

I sure hope you wife never hqad a baby.... Talk about works.....SMH

Not of works in Eph 2:9 refers to works of merit, not obedience.

In Paul's Roman epistle Paul wrote about obedience to the faith, "obedience unto righteousness", how the Romans obeyed from the heart THEN freed from sin,(Rom 6:16-18) how the Jews were lost because they would not submit to God's righteousness Rom 10:3) would not obey the gospel (Rom 10:16).

The Holy SPirit Who inspired Paul would then turn around and eliminate obedience from being saved.





then there is Lk 13:3 where Christ required one to repent or perish and Mt 10:32-33 He required one confess Him or He would not confess that one before His Father and He required baptism (Mk 16:16). The sum of God's word shows that salvation requires more than just a mental assent of the mind, of a "mental agreement" with certain facts and nothing more.

If I was giving you a car as a free gift and in order for you to receive that free gift you must go to the car dealership on Main Street and ask for a salesman named Fred and he will give you the keys and title to the car, then can you receive my free gift by doing nothing? by simply having faith alone you will get the free car by doing nothing more?

 

[Jim]

Rom 5:18-19 are if-then type statements...if the (a) first half of the verse is true then (b) the second half is equally true.

If the "condition" Adam created by sinning means ALL are UNIVERSALLY UNCONDITIONALLY made sinners then it is equally true the "condition" Christ created by dying on the cross means that ALL will UNIVERSALLY UNCONDITIONALLY be made righteous and your ARE pushing Universalism.

Again, NOTHING in the context remotely suggest people are unconditionally made sinners or UNconditionally made righteous. People are CONDITIONALLY made righteous by obedience....hence Paul says serving "obedience unto righteousness" (Rom 6:16)

If the first parts of those two verses relate to the condition of one at birth, then the second parts also relate to the condition of one at birth.

What is actually being presented there is the fact that if there was original sin imposed as a result of Adam's sin, then that was actually set aside by the sacrifice of Jesus. Thus though original sin might have been the condition were it not for the cross of Christ. Man is not born in sin. Man is born in grace. It is only when he sins that he becomes a sinner.

Man is not born in a condition of original sin, he is born in a condition of original grace.

 

[Jim]

From the bible:
The Bible directly separates faith from works:

The Bible directly separates faith from works of law.

To have faith means to believe in God. To believe is something one does. Something one does is a work, but it is not a work of law.

 

[Doug Brents]

a slave obeys his master. no obedience=no salvation, no life, no love etc.......

Jesus said if you love Me you will obey/keep My commandments. John 14:15, cf Matthew 7:21, 1 John 2:3-5,

Precisely. We do not become His servant until we are obedient to Him. Just believing in who He is doesn't make us His. It is when we surrender to His authority that He claims us. As He told us in Matt 10:32, IF we confess Him, THEN He will confess us; IF we refuse to confess Him, THEN He will refuse to confess us. And the president carries over to baptism: if we die with Him in baptism, then He will resurrect us; but if we do not die with Him then He will not resurrect us.

 

[Jim]

Not of works in Eph 2:9 refers to works of merit, not obedience.

Works refers to works of law.

Rom 3:20 For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

Rom 3:27 Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith.

Rom 3:28 For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.

Gal 2:16 yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

Gal 3:5 Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith-

Gal 3:10 For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, "Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.

Both Paul and Peter spoke of what would happen to those who fail to obey the gospel.

Rom 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?"

2Th 1:8 in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.

1Pe 4:17 For it is time for judgment to begin at the household of God; and if it begins with us, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God?

The clear inference is what would happen to those who do obey the gospel.

 

[civic]

Precisely. We do not become His servant until we are obedient to Him. Just believing in who He is doesn't make us His. It is when we surrender to His authority that He claims us. As He told us in Matt 10:32, IF we confess Him, THEN He will confess us; IF we refuse to confess Him, THEN He will refuse to confess us. And the president carries over to baptism: if we die with Him in baptism, then He will resurrect us; but if we do not die with Him then He will not resurrect us.

Its the beginning point- unless a man deny himself , take up his cross and follow Me he cannot be My disciple. The great commission is the call to go make disciples- thats the starting point. Being a disciple is not an afterthought, something that happens later- its the starting point. The western church has mislead many into thinking you can be saved apart from being His disciple. The easy believism without counting the cost mentality has many deceived into thinking they are saved. And God forbid you mention repentance form sin.

 

[Jim]

Its the beginning point- unless a man deny himself , take up his cross and follow Me he cannot be My disciple. The great commission is the call to go make disciples- thats the starting point. Being a disciple is not an afterthought, something that happens later- its the starting point. The western church has mislead many into thinking you can be saved apart from being His disciple. The easy believism without counting the cost mentality has many deceived into thinking they are saved. And God forbid you mention repentance form sin.

in the great commission, baptizing and teaching are adverbial participles modifying the verb make. It explains the procedure to be use to make disciples. Baptizing and teaching are how disciples are to be made.

 

[brightfame52]

Rom 5:18-19 are if-then type statements...if the (a) first half of the verse is true then (b) the second half is equally true.

Yeah both are equally true and confirm one another so its limited to the Justified. The Justification of life pertains to the Justified elect Rom 8:30,33

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

 

[Jim]

Yeah both are equally true and confirm one another so its limited to the Justified. The Justification of life pertains to the Justified elect Rom 8:30,33

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

Yeah, who are God's elect? They are the ones God called. Who are the called?

They are those who love God (Rom 8:28).

 

[brightfame52]

Yeah, who are God's elect?

Those He chose in Christ b4 the foundation of the world Eph 1:4, 7 they are redeemed by His Blood Vs 7

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

7 In whom we[The chosen of vs 4] have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

 

[Doug Brents]

Its the beginning point- unless a man deny himself , take up his cross and follow Me he cannot be My disciple. The great commission is the call to go make disciples- thats the starting point. Being a disciple is not an afterthought, something that happens later- its the starting point. The western church has mislead many into thinking you can be saved apart from being His disciple. The easy believism without counting the cost mentality has many deceived into thinking they are saved. And God forbid you mention repentance form sin.

Amen!

But many even accept repentance, but they refuse to accept baptism as being required also. Baptism is NOT the first thing you should do AFTER you receive salvation. It is the point at which salvation is received.