brightfame52
Active Member
I didnt say they were.
"Works Salvation"
- Thread starter Seabass
- Start date
brightfame52
Active Member
Christs obedience was the condition. Now how shall they be made righteous according to Rom 5:19 ?
brightfame52
Active Member
Thats works salvation. Faith is for them who Christ saved
Seabass
Active Member
Not being water baptized is rejecting the gospel of Christ 2 Thess 1:8.
--what is the gospel? 1 Cor 15:2-4 the gospel is the death, burial and resurrection of Christ.
How then does one obey these historical facts about Christ?
Rom 6:2-5 when one submits to water baptism, the old man of sin must DIE, one then is BURIED in a watery grave and then is RAISED UP FROM (resurrected) that watery grave to walk in newness of life. So there is a death burial and resurrection when one is water baptized and is HOW one obeys the gospel per 2 Thess 1:8. It is not by accident or coincidence there is a death, burial and resurrection when one is water baptized, that is how God planned and designed it to be.
Rom 6:2,4
"God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?"
"Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life."
===================
Again, 1 Cor 1:13 Paul said one must be baptized in the name of Christ to be "of Christ".
Christ being crucified alone does not make one 'of Christ' for it takes BOTH Christ's crucifixion AND one being baptized in Christ to be of Christ. The phrase "in the name of" is a legal term. I buy a new car then I must go and register that new car "in the name of Seabass" and that shows my ownership of the car. Those who have been baptized in the name of Christ are then in Christ's ownership. Those that have not been baptized are not in His ownership.
==================
The Bible does not say that salvation is received by grace through faith ALONE...you added the word 'alone'. Faith and faith alone are two totally different things. Faith justifies Rom 5:1 where faith alone does not justify James 2:24. If faith and faith alone were the same things then both would justify or neither one would justify.
Last edited:
Seabass
Active Member
by obedience "obedience unto righteousness". The verse does not say many are made UNconditionally righteous. Only those who conditionally obey are the ones made righteous.
brightfame52
Active Member
Christs obedience was the condition. Now how shall they be made righteous according to Rom 5:19 ?
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous
Jay
Active Member
Requiring anything in addition to faith in Jesus Christ for salvation is a works-based salvation. To add anything to the gospel is to say that Jesus’ death on the cross was not sufficient to purchase our salvation. To say that baptism is necessary for salvation is to say we must add our own good works and obedience to Christ’s death in order to make it sufficient for salvation.
Jesus’ death alone paid for our sins (Romans 5:8; 2 Corinthians 5:21). Jesus’ payment for our sins is appropriated to our “account” by faith alone (John 3:16; Acts 16:31; Ephesians 2:8-9). Therefore, baptism is an important step of obedience after salvation but cannot be a requirement for salvation.
Got?
brightfame52
Active Member
dwight92070
Active Member
Jesus said, "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life." John 3:16
We should listen to Jesus, who saves us, to learn how to be saved. When men contradict Him, we must listen to Him. Believe in Him.
The prophet John the Baptist said, "He who believes in the Son has eternal life ..." John agrees with Jesus: "believe in the Son". John 3:36
Jesus said, "... Repent and believe in the gospel of God"
If we obey Him (John 3:36) by repenting and believing, we will be saved. You don't obey someone that you do not believe in. So believing must come first, then obedience. Salvation comes first, then obedient works.
Also you can't repent without believing in Him, nor can you believe in Him without repenting.
Jesus said, "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved". God said through Peter by the Holy Spirit, "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit"
Can you believe without being baptized?
Seabass
Active Member
Incorrect
If the "condition" Adam creating by sinning means all men are UNIVERSALLY, UNCONDITIONALLY made sinners then it is equally true that the "condition" Christ created by dying on the cross makes the same all men UNIVERSALLY, UNCONDITIONALLY righteous and you are pushing the idea of Universalism.
Calvinists and those who push the OSAS agenda like to read the idea of "unconditional" into verses when it is not there.
Seabass
Active Member
I am not adding anything to faith In Christ for salvation, so that is not the issue.
The obvious issue here is that faith-onlyists are SUBTRACTING from faith in Christ essential items that Christ made a necessary part of faith. Christ clearly made repentance (Lk 13:3) confession (Mt 10:32-33) baptism (Mk 16:16) essential, necessary components of the NT system of belief. Meaning all the belief only in the world cannot save those who will not repent (Rom 2:4-5), All the belief only in the world cannot save those who will not confess (Jn 12:42). All the belief only in the world cannot keep one out of flaming fire if he will not obey the gospel by being baptized (2 Thess 1:8).
No one has the ability or authority to change or dismiss God's plan of salvation and attempt to save themselves by formulating their own plan of salvation
Faith-onlyists often engage in cherry picking verses they feel support their position while ignoring a hosts of verses that do not. Cherry picking goes against basic rules of logic and exegesis and leads to deception. It is very rare that just one or two verses exhaust all their is to know about a subject especially the subject of salvation where there are dozens upon dozens of verses that deal with that particular subject. Proper logic and exegesis requires ALL verses to be examined in order to arrive at a COMPLETE understanding of the subject. Examining a verse or two leaves an incomplete picture of the subject.
An illustration I used before, one cannot read just the first sentence of the first paragraph on page one of a 500 page novel and claim to know all their is to know about the novel. The main plot, sub-plots, characters in the novel and how the novel ends is not found in that one sentence alone...one must read ALL the novel to have a complete picture of what the novel is about. Much like one cannot read Genesis 1:1 only and then claim to have a complete understanding of NT salvation.
Cherry picking can lead to deception to the unsuspecting Bible novice. Cherry picking shows the novice only selected verses that push a particular agenda while trying to obscure all other verses that are necessary, essential to salvation the novice needs to know to have a complete understanding.
Edit: the guy in your video is SUBRACTING from what Christ included and requires in NT faith to be saved. He even cited Rom 6 that when one is baptized, one is buried and raised up like Christ was. Therefore water baptism is HOW one obeys the gospel (death burial resurrection of Christ) per 2 Thess 1:8. How does he miss that simplicity?
Last edited:
Seabass
Active Member
Jesus said far more than what one reads in Jn 3:16. Jesus also said one must repent or perish (Lk 13:3) confess (Mt 10:32-33) and be baptized (Mk 16:16). Jn 3:16 is an important verse but not the only important verse when it comes to salvation. One MUST examine all verses that deal with salvation to have a COMPLETE picture of what Christ said about salvation. Reading Jn 3:16 alone leaves an incomplete picture.
You point out Jesus said to repent, hence belief alone cannot ever save the impenitent (Rom 2:4-5)
You leave out verses that require confession (Mt 10:32-33; Rom 10:9-10) and baptism (Mt 28:19-20; Mk 16:16; Acts 2:38; 1 Pet 3:21; etc,). No one can SUBTRACT from NT faith necessary, essential components from salvation that Christ has required.
Seabass
Active Member
Mark 16:16 the participles 'believe' and 'baptized' are aorist participles meaning one who having already believed and having already been baptized shall be saved. The aorist participles precede the leading verb 'saved' according to various Greek scholars.
Here is what AI has to say about the grammatical construction of Mark 16:16:
The grammatical analysis of Mark 16:16 is a subject of significant study, focusing on the Greek aorist tense participles (pisteusas - "having believed" and baptistheis - "having been baptized") in relation to the main verb (sothesetai - "shall be saved").
Grammatical Structure and Tense
- Aorist Participles: In Greek, the aorist participle commonly indicates action that takes place prior to the action of the main verb (antecedent action).
- Sequence: The aorist verbs "believed" and "baptized" precede the main verb "will be saved".
- Interpretation: This grammatical construction implies that the actions of believing and being baptized are viewed as completed or foundational to the state of being saved.
- Significance of Aorist: Scholars like R.C.H. Lenski argue that both belief and baptism precede the future act of salvation, acting as a complete unit.
The Assault upon Mark 16:16
The denominational community has long assaulted Mark 16:16 due to the simplicity of the passage in including baptism as a preliminary condition of salvation. Now, such attacks are coming even from certain "change agents" within the body of Christ. This article highlights one such recent effort.
christiancourier.com
brightfame52
Active Member
No its not. Christs obedience, just His One, secured a righteous standing b4 God, for the many He represented as their federal Head. Rom 5:19
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
Now for anyone to negate this and impose their act of obedience as being that to ,ake one right before God, is evil
FreeInChrist
Active Member
From the bible:
The Bible directly separates faith from works:
DOES YOURS SAY SOMETHING DIFFERENT?
Paul literally contrasts “working” WITH “believing”
If believing = working, then this verse makes no sense.
Again, from the bible.
Salvation comes through faith (not before it)
Ephesians 2:8–9 “For by grace are ye saved through faith… not of works”Grace is the source. Faith is the means. Not.......
Grace instead of faith BUT Grace through faith
From the bible, Faith is required but is not meritorious
Acts 16:31 “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved”
John 3:16 “Whosoever believeth… shall not perish”
Romans 5:1 “Therefore being justified by faith…”
These are not suggestions ....... they ARE conditions plainly stated.
YOU CAN SUM THESE UP IN WHAT HAS BEEN SAID BEFORE....
Scripture never defines faith as a work, Romans 4:5 actually contrasts the two: “to him that worketh not, but believeth.” If believing were a work, that verse would collapse.
The Bible consistently says we are saved by grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8–9), and that justification happens when we believe (Romans 5:1). Faith is not something that earns salvation,it is simply trusting in what Christ has already done.
Receiving a gift is not a work, and neither is believing.
brightfame52
Active Member
Yes because the scripture teaches that Faith is a gift of Gods Grace, and not in man naturally when it comes to a spiritual faith.
But if you hijack it from being of grace, and put it in the natural man in salvation, it defaults to work merit
Seabass
Active Member
Rom 5:18-19 are if-then type statements...if the (a) first half of the verse is true then (b) the second half is equally true.
If the "condition" Adam created by sinning means ALL are UNIVERSALLY UNCONDITIONALLY made sinners then it is equally true the "condition" Christ created by dying on the cross means that ALL will UNIVERSALLY UNCONDITIONALLY be made righteous and your ARE pushing Universalism.
Again, NOTHING in the context remotely suggest people are unconditionally made sinners or UNconditionally made righteous. People are CONDITIONALLY made righteous by obedience....hence Paul says serving "obedience unto righteousness" (Rom 6:16)
Similar threads
- Sticky
