"Works Salvation"
- Thread starter Seabass
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brightfame52
Active Member
Huh ? What kind of riddle is this lol
Seabass
Active Member
Noah did not work to build the ark because he was already saved from a flood that had not happened but built the ark "to the saving of his house" Heb 11....built the ark in order to receive God's grace.
Naaman did not dip 7 times in the Jordan River because he was already healed, but dipped in order to receive God's gracious healing.
The Jews in Acts 2 repented and baptized not because they were already saved, but in order to be saved-to receive God's grace.
God does not save people who are in and continue in rebellion, disobedience to His will. People must first comply to God's will then they are saved. Paul said "obedience UNTO righteousness" Rom 6:16.....not obey because you are already righteous. One is and remains unrighteousness unless/until they first obey God.
Rom 6:17-18
"But God be thanked, that ye (1) were the servants of sin, but ye have (2) obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Being (3) then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness."
Order of events:
1) - servants of sin
2) - obeyed from the heart
3) - then freed from sin (justified)
Obedience BEFORE justification.
========================
"For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."
The "we" refers to Christians, that is, the "we" refers to those who have already obeyed with God's will, those who already believed, repented, confessed & baptized. Those who have already obeyed to God's will are the ones who are to do good works.
Doing good works will not save the sinner, that takes obedience to God's will (belief, repentance, confession, baptism).
obedience to God's will >> Christian >> do good works
Just as salvation cannot be earned by good works, neither does it need good works to be maintained or sustained. Good works and changed lives are the inevitable results of salvation.
What is the use (profit), my brethren, for anyone to profess to have faith if he has no [good] works [to show for it]? Can [such] faith save [his soul]?
James 2:14.
What is the use (profit), my brethren, for anyone to profess to have faith if he has no [good] works [to show for it]? Can [such] faith save [his soul]?
James 2:14.
brightfame52
Active Member
False Noah found Grace b4 the he was commanded to build the ark, he was already saved by grace, he was already justified Gen 6
7 And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.
8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord.
9 These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.
He makes my point, he was saved unto good works Eph 2:10
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
God had before ordained that he build that ark
Seabass
Active Member
The issue is this....would Noah have CONTINUED to find grace in God's eyes had he disobeyed and not built the ark. The answer is NO! Noah was saved by God's grace but God CONDITIONED receiving His grace upon Noah building the ark. Not building the ark would be the same as Noah rejecting God's grace...receiving God's grace "in vain" 2 Cor 6:1.
Eph 2:10 does not support your claims. Again, the "we" refers to those who have already met God's conditions (believed, repented, confessed & baptized) that is, the "we" refers to those who are ALREADY Christians. Eph 2:10 says NOTHING about God preordaining who will or will not be saved but speaks to the fact God preordained the type of work Christians would be engaged in, that being, good works.
There is no verse that actually says God preordained Noah’s initial response or who will obey. Ephesians 2:10 does not provide that idea.
Ephesians 1:4, God preordained those who are in the group "Christian" would be "holy", be "without blame", be "in Christ" and in Eph 2:10 they would do "good works". Eph 1 or 2 say nothing about God UNconditionally preordaining certain individuals to be saved. The text speaks about preordained traits Christians would have, not unconditionally preordaining certain individuals to salvation:
The Calvinist who uses Ephesians 2:10 to try and prove that Noah (or anyone) was irresistibly preordained to obey with no real choice is reading more into the verse than it actually says. The "before ordained" applies to the good works for those already "in Christ,", it is not referring to God preparing before the world began who would or would not be saved.
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brightfame52
Active Member
Yes it does, also Noah found grace and was a perfect just man [saved] b4 God commanded him anything. Thats because he was in Christ, that's the only way a man is perfect with God Heb 10:14
14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
Gen 6:8-9
8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord.
9 These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.
In fact he walked with God like his predecessor did . Enoch was Noah great grandfather who walked with God Heb 11:5
5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
You blowed it bringing up Noah friend
Seabass
Active Member
Simply not the case.
No context says Noah was predetermined to obey God or that he could be still be saved had he disobeyed God and not built the ark. My point still stands.
What cannot be found in Ephesians chapter 1 or 2 is God preordaining certain men to be UNconditionally saved leaving the rest to be lost. The context deals with traits (holy, without blame, in Him) that God preordained Christians would have.
Context in Hebrews 10 is contrasting the sacrifices under the OT law that had to be done very year for sins because the blood of bulls and goats could not take away sin. Under the NT, the superior sacrifice of Christ needed to be done just once to forgive sins to them sanctified. Those sanctified are the ones who have already obeyed God, not unconditionally, randomly chosen by God before the world began.
dwight92070
Active Member
The Bible speaks of three categories of works:
1. The works of the Law, which are ceremonial practices like circumcision, dietary restrictions, Sabbath observance and sacrifices, as well as broader moral commandments.
These are religious or legalistic efforts to merit God's favor.
According to Paul, relying on these works for salvation leads to a curse. Galatians 3:10-11 and Romans 3:20
Instead, salvation comes through faith in Jesus Christ and His atoning blood.
2. Good works or good deeds, which are equivalent to the fruit of the Spirit
Galatians 5:22-23, Ephesians 2:10 "For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them."
These are not a means to earn salvation, that we should boast about. Rather faith-driven works flow from gratitude and reliance on God's grace. They should naturally flow from our lives after we have been saved by grace through faith.
3. The works of the flesh or the deeds of the flesh.
These are sinful actions and attitudes that stem from our fallen nature and our inherent tendency toward rebellion against God.
Galatians 5:19-21
Paul says that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
These are immoral behaviors, which represent bondage to sin.
Paul says that neither legalism (works of the Law) nor licentiousness (works of the flesh) aligns with the gospel. Instead, believers are to walk in the Spirit through faith, producing love, joy, peace, self, control and all the other (fruit of the Spirit) Galatians 5:16-25
Where would the deeds of confessing with your mouth Jesus as Lord and water baptism fall in these categories?
These fall under good works or the fruit of the Spirit - they are the obedient actions and character traits that the Holy Spirit produces in the life of someone who has already been saved by grace through faith.
They are the evidence and fruit of genuine faith, not the root or cause of salvation.
Water baptism is performed after faith, not as a means to obtain faith or forgiveness.
Peter calls it "the answer of a good conscience toward God." 1 Peter 3:21
If someone tries to turn either one into a law-keeping requirement for salvation, then it would slide into the "works of the Law" territory - legalism. But that is not how the New Testament presents them when they flow from genuine faith.
1. The works of the Law, which are ceremonial practices like circumcision, dietary restrictions, Sabbath observance and sacrifices, as well as broader moral commandments.
These are religious or legalistic efforts to merit God's favor.
According to Paul, relying on these works for salvation leads to a curse. Galatians 3:10-11 and Romans 3:20
Instead, salvation comes through faith in Jesus Christ and His atoning blood.
2. Good works or good deeds, which are equivalent to the fruit of the Spirit
Galatians 5:22-23, Ephesians 2:10 "For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them."
These are not a means to earn salvation, that we should boast about. Rather faith-driven works flow from gratitude and reliance on God's grace. They should naturally flow from our lives after we have been saved by grace through faith.
3. The works of the flesh or the deeds of the flesh.
These are sinful actions and attitudes that stem from our fallen nature and our inherent tendency toward rebellion against God.
Galatians 5:19-21
Paul says that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
These are immoral behaviors, which represent bondage to sin.
Paul says that neither legalism (works of the Law) nor licentiousness (works of the flesh) aligns with the gospel. Instead, believers are to walk in the Spirit through faith, producing love, joy, peace, self, control and all the other (fruit of the Spirit) Galatians 5:16-25
Where would the deeds of confessing with your mouth Jesus as Lord and water baptism fall in these categories?
These fall under good works or the fruit of the Spirit - they are the obedient actions and character traits that the Holy Spirit produces in the life of someone who has already been saved by grace through faith.
They are the evidence and fruit of genuine faith, not the root or cause of salvation.
Water baptism is performed after faith, not as a means to obtain faith or forgiveness.
Peter calls it "the answer of a good conscience toward God." 1 Peter 3:21
If someone tries to turn either one into a law-keeping requirement for salvation, then it would slide into the "works of the Law" territory - legalism. But that is not how the New Testament presents them when they flow from genuine faith.
Seabass
Active Member
obedience to God's will saves. Heb 5:9; 2 Thess 1:8; Acts 2:38; Mk 16:16; Rom 6:16-18; etc etc
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Obedience is not a work of merit.
Nor does obedience require the work of sinless perfection as the OT law required of the Jew to be justified thereby leaving the Jew unjustified Rom 3:9.
Obedience is not 'legalism' or antinomianism.
Romans 10:3
"For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God."
Those Jews were lost for doing the wrong type of work, that being, "establish their own righteousness". They could be saved if they had done the work of submitting/obeying God's righteousness. (see Acts 10:35)
brightfame52
Active Member
Yes it is
dwight92070
Active Member
You said, "Obedience is not a work."
That depends on what action you take in your obedience. It also depends on how you are defining "work" - are you defining it as a physical action or a spiritual decision of the heart? If Jesus tells us, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel." Mark 1:15 , then to obey Jesus here is not a physical work. Rather it is a spiritual work and decision of the heart to repent and believe.
But Jesus also said, "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, ..." Matthew 28:19
So when a disciple, having been born again, obeys Jesus here and willingly receives baptism, that is a good deed - a good physical work led by the Holy Spirit. Galatians 5:18 It is supposed to be the beginning of the "good works which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them." Ephesians 2:10 Unfortunately too many delay baptism after they are saved. God intended that disciples get baptized as soon as possible after their new birth.
I met a young man Friday, who said that he was saved but he was waiting until he was 30 to be baptized, because he wanted to be the same age as Jesus when He was baptized. That is foolish. I told him that the New Testament says that new believers should be baptized immediately, if possible. But he was not going to budge.
He had strayed into the same category of the works of the Law - legalism, which brings a curse. Galatians 3:10 He's going beyond what Jesus commands. He wanted to wait until he was 30 to be baptized, so he could be more like Jesus.
That's like Peter telling Jesus, when He wanted to wash his feet, "Lord, then wash not only my feet, but also my hands and my head." John 13:10 Of course Jesus refused to do that.
Paul referred to multiple categories of law other than the Law of God, such as the law of sin and works of the law. For example, in Romans 7:25-8:2, Paul contrasted the Law of God with the law of sin and contrasted the Law of the Spirit with the law of sin and death. In Romans 3:27, Paul contrasted a law of works with a law of faith, in Galatians 3:10-12, he contrasted the Book of the Law with "works of the law", and in Romans 3:31, Paul said that our faith upholds the Law of God in contest with Galatians 3:10-12, where he Sid that "works of the law" are not of faith, so that phrase does not refer to any of the commands of God, which is why it is not of faith.
According to Deuteronomy 27-30, the way to be blessed is by relying on the Book of the Law while the way to be cursed is by not relying on it, so Galatians 3:10 should not be interpreted as Paul quoting from that passage in order to support a point that is arguing the opposite of that passage. Rather, the fact that cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything in the Book of the Law straightforwardly means that we should continue to do everything in the Book of the Law, which is why all those who rely on "works of the law" instead come under that curse. God is trustworthy, therefore His instructions are also trustworthy (Psalm 19:7), so it would be contradictory to take the position that we should rely on God for salvation but not in His instructions, and to interpret Galatians 3:10-12 as speaking against relying on God's instructions for salvation is to interpret it as speaking against relying on God for salvation.
In Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for dong good works, so the way that salvation comes through faith in Jesus Christ and His atoning blood is by becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to the Law of God (Acts 21:20). Jesus saves us from our sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is the transgression of the Law of God, so Jesus graciously teaching us to experience being a doer of it is intrinsically the way that he is giving us the content of his gift of saving us from not being a doer of it.
God's character traits are the fruits of the Spirit and the Law of God is His instructions for how to embody His character traits, which is why the Spirit has the role of leading us to obey it (Ezekiel 36:26-27). The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact likes of His character (Hebrews 1:3), which he embodied through his works by setting a sinless example for us to follow of how to walk in the Spirit/how to walk in obedience to the Law of God. Sin is what is contrary to God's character traits, so this is how Jesus is graciously saving us from sin.
In Psalm 119:29-30, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, and he chose the way of faith by setting it before him, sot his has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith. In Titus 2:11-13, the content of our gift of salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so we are not extrinsically required to have first done those works in order to earn our salvation as the result and we are not extrinsically required to do those works as the result of having first been saved, but rather we are intrinsically required to be a doer of those works because God graciously teaching us to experience being a doer of those works is part of the content of His gift of salvation.
Indeed, the works of the flesh are all contrary to the Law of God and to God's character traits.
We can't earn our righteousness even as the result of having perfect obedience to the Law of God because it was never given as way of doing that in the first place (Romans 4:1-5), which makes it that much more true that we can't earn our righteousness as the result of works of the law. Rather, the only way to receive the gift of righteousness is through faith and the content of that gift is getting to experience being a doer of the righteousness of God in obedience to His law. The Law of God describes the life of someone who is righteous as it describes the life of Christ, so what it means for us to become righteous through faith is for the Law of God to now describe our life (1 John 3:4-7).
Holiness is on of God's character traits of God, which is not legalism. In 1 Peter 1:16, we are told to be holy for God is holy, which is a quote from Leviticus where God was giving instructions for how to do that, which includes refraining from eating unclean animals (Leviticus 11:44-45) and keeping God's Sabbaths holy (Leviticus 19:2-3). The purpose of following these instructions is not in order to become holy as the result, but rather they are what we get to become a doer of when we become holy through faith.
brightfame52
Active Member
Wrong Christs obedience to Gods will saves Heb 10:7-10
7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second
10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Rom 5:19
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
Jay
Active Member
God's will:
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
God's will in salvation is rooted in His love, grace, and justice. Salvation is offered to all who believe, and it is a gift from God, not a result of human works. The Bible teaches that salvation is by grace through faith, not by works.
His divine plan unfolds throughout Scripture, from Genesis to Revelation, and is fulfilled in the person and work of Jesus Christ. Salvation is not a human invention but God's revealed plan, which is clear, gracious, and life-changing.
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
God's will in salvation is rooted in His love, grace, and justice. Salvation is offered to all who believe, and it is a gift from God, not a result of human works. The Bible teaches that salvation is by grace through faith, not by works.
His divine plan unfolds throughout Scripture, from Genesis to Revelation, and is fulfilled in the person and work of Jesus Christ. Salvation is not a human invention but God's revealed plan, which is clear, gracious, and life-changing.
Seabass
Active Member
I post that obedience is not a work OF MERIT. Obedience is a work, as Noah obedience was a work in building the ark, but his obedience was not a work of merit.
Noah's obedience, Naaman's obedience were actions required to receive God's grace. Obedience, not works of merit nor is obedience mere mental assent of the mind or a simple mental acknowledgement of facts.
2 Thess 1:8 the gospel is to be obeyed else be in flaming fire.
Being baptized is obedience to God's command to men to be baptized. Hence being baptized is not a work of merit.
Then he was not saved if he had not obeyed God's command to be baptized.
You mentioned Matthew's account of the great commission. In that account "make" is the main verb with 'teaching' and baptizing" being modal, present participles.
"Present participles indicate action that occurs at the same time as the action of the main verb." (see link below). Meaning the verbs 'teach' and 'baptize' occur at the same time as the main verb 'make', they do not refer to action that is subsequent to the action of the main verb, that is, one is not made a disciple then is subsequently taught and baptized.
"Southern Baptist scholar of New Testament Greek A.T. Robertson says these two participles in this passage are “modal participles,” i.e., they identify the manner, means, or method by which the action of the main verb is accomplished. (see link below). 'Teaching' and 'baptizing' are the manner, means or method one is made a disciple. If there is no teaching and baptizing then no disciple can be made. Teaching alone does not make one a disciple, it takes both modal participles teaching AND baptizing to make one a disciple. The language used by Matthew means there is no such thing as an untaught, unbaptized Christian.
What Is the Purpose of Baptism? (Part 1) - Apologetics Press
Matthew 28:19-20 constitutes the “marching orders” for the apostles in promulgating the spread of Christianity in the first century. Embedded within this “Great Commission” is one of the key prerequisites to being saved: water baptism. The precise wording expressed by Jesus provides...
apologeticspress.org
Obedience to God's will is not legalism. Obedience in being baptized is no more legalism than Noah obeying God's command to build the ark was legalism.
If obedience were legalism then Heb 5:9 would read:
"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that are legalists'"
Heb 5:8 would read:
Though he were a Son, yet learned he legalism by the things which he suffered;
What some 'young man" told you is not what the world will be judged by...we will all be judged by what God's word says, not what some young man claims.
Seabass
Active Member
Heb 5:9 Christ is the author of salvation unto all them that obey Him.....no obedience = no salvation. Christ does not save the disobedient and one is and remains disobedient unless/until he obeys.
2 Thess 1:8 those in flaming fire are the ones who "obey not".
No example of God saving one who was continually living in rebellion, defiance to God's will. But the Bible is full of examples of those who submitted to God's will being saved.
Rom 5:19 does not say many were UNconditionally made sinners or many were UNconditionally made righteous. Men are conditionally made sinners when they choose to sin (v12) and are conditionally made righteous when they choose to obey God...."obedience unto righteousness" (Rom 6:16).
Jay
Active Member
How can you be saved if you refuse obey His will, and live your life in rebellion against God? Being saved often initiates a profound, lifelong transformation, characterized as becoming a "new creation," where inner desires align with God's will. This involves adopting a lifestyle of holiness, departing from old sinful habits, renewed thinking, and a commitment to serving God and others. While some experience an immediate change, for many it is a gradual, ongoing process.
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