"Works Salvation"

Free Gracers just cannot seem to understand that their logic inevitably leads to monergism if followed to its conclusion.

Once you open the door to something you DO—no matter how tiny, momentary or small—you have defined an action that does not merit, and at that moment it becomes not whether you have to do something, but how much you have to do.

Paul does NOT say "works of any kind." EVER. He always uses works in the context of Law and merit.
 
@mailmandan , @Dizerner , and everyone else following this.

Works of the Law or Faith Works.

What does the Holy Bible say on this?

Paul in Romans says.....

Romans 3:20

because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

Even the "works" master James suggests in The Book of James which emphasizes that genuine faith is demonstrated through good works, suggesting that faith without works is dead. However, it does not strictly advocate for the works of the law in the same way as traditional Jewish law, but rather focuses on ethical living and caring for others as expressions of faith.

One would naturally say then it is Faith Works that we must do.

Of course over time there has been much debate on whether James should even be included in the Canon of the bible.

There are many interesting debates if you care to search this subject.

Now... Paul goes on to say later on in Romans....11:6 which speaks of saving grace.

But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.

Ephesians 2:8 NLT God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can’t take credit for this; it is a gift from God.

And best understood by the Amplified Bible... For it is by grace [God’s remarkable compassion and favor drawing you to Christ] that you have been saved [actually delivered from judgment and given eternal life] through faith. And this [salvation] is not of yourselves [not through your own effort], but it is the [undeserved, gracious] gift of God;

Certainly Paul has made it clear that works of any kind have no place in God saving us.

This does not mean that one should leave a starving man to starve. It just means it is not needded for where you want to spend your eternity.
Man is saved through faith and not by works (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is (evidenced) by works. (James 2:14-24)

*Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works. (Romans 3:24-28)

It is through faith "in Jesus Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 4:5-6; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies does not remain alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine. (James 2:14-24) *Perfect Harmony* ✝️
 
Man is saved through faith and not by works (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is (evidenced) by works. (James 2:14-24)

*Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works. (Romans 3:24-28)

It is through faith "in Jesus Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 4:5-6; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies does not remain alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine. (James 2:14-24) *Perfect Harmony* ✝️
Yep, that is what I was saying.
 
Responsibility does not mean we merit something.

This is the masquerade of Free Grace and Calvinism, both sharing the same logical error.

Of course our sinful nature wants the cheap security of an abdication of all responsibility through full or semi-monergism.

Eliminating our responsibility is never what grace meant—ever.
 
Responsibility does not mean we merit something.

This is the masquerade of Free Grace and Calvinism, both sharing the same logical error.

Of course our sinful nature wants the cheap security of an abdication of all responsibility through full or semi-monergism.

Eliminating our responsibility is never what grace meant—ever.

I don't agree with everything you said here but it is certainly true in many ways.

Salvation is about us. God doesn't need us. Never has. Never will. Full and profoundly deep love isn't based upon need. Though we all certainly need God. WE are in NEED of salvation.

However, most people never really understand love to be anything more than "need". This is the false doctrine of Calvinism.

Calvinism makes God dependent upon US.

I often reference the teaching of the willing servant from Exodus 21
 
I don't agree with everything you said here

I just hope you realize the depth of your own sinfulness and your true and deep need for Christ to suffer the penalty your sins.

Sometimes you make me question whether you are really trusting in the Cross of Christ to save you.
 
Please show me in scripture where Doug Brent’s opinion matters?
My opinion doesn't matter in the least. But then, I didn't make any statements of opinion.
The church was never sola scriptura, a false inventiononof Protestants.
Show me in sctripture where it says it has to be in scripture?
I can show you where scripture disputes that!!
2 Tim 3:16-17
Scripture is the only thing that matters in discussions of Church doctrine and Truth.
It’s clear what the church did believe and what Jesus and John meant from
the writings of early disciples , in the first century, not your 2000 year old irrelevant opinion born of arrogance
And “ leaning on your own opinion” in violation of scripture, and your refusal to listen to the “ pillar of truth” Those “ sent to preach “ your refusal to stay true to “ what we taught you” by word of mouth ( hint: not scripture but traditon) or to those appointed to resolve disputes on doctrine given the power to “bind and loose” meaning. Study all of them.
Please tell me:
Who this "pillar of truth" is that you are referring to.
And who is it that was "sent to preach"?
What is it that "we taught you"?
Who was "appointed to resolve disputes on doctrine"?
Who was given power to "bind and loose"?
None of you even agree with each other! Because none of you have the word of God.
You only have words until you have the right meaning
Many church groups have different doctrines on many things that are not essential for salvation. For instance, salvation is not based on whether you have instrumental music or not. It is not based on whether you use one cup for communion or many. It is not based on whether you believe in the physical millennial reign or not (premil, amil, postmil, etc.). These things should not cause division, I'll grant you, but they do not make a church not part of the Church.
Repent and go back to the true church , the Catholic Church”, which IS the Christian church since the beginning.
But following the pope instead of following Christ does make a church not part of the Church. Following a bunch of men who have rewritten the Scripture so that it appears to uphold their bid for earthly power does make them not part of God's Church.
Sola scriptura is your problem. Arrogance to believe you know better than those sent to teach you is your other Problem. You don’t need any others to go off the rails as you have
You are wrong.

What I hate most about Protestabts ( I was one) is how you think Jesus was impotent he needs you to bring his church back , when he promised the “gates of he would not prevail “ and “ the gospel woyld be preached yo the end of time “ ( it doesn’t say until someone called doug found it again - Mormons , JWs and Islam claim the same!)
Mike, we had to find the Church again, because the catholic cultists had fallen from the faith. Yes, they may in their very early beginnings have been the true Church. But over the years they have allowed their priests to lead them further and further from Truth.
Jesus doesn’t need your help. He needs you to listen to start listening to those he SENT
They believed in a Eucharist of the real flesh valid only if presided by bishop in succession who he SENT . We know that from the first Christians ! If only you studied HIS church.
I asked you to please show us where in Scripture it says that Communion must be given by a "bishop in succession". I would accept it if you can show me where that command is given in God's Word.
 
I just hope you realize the depth of your own sinfulness and your true and deep need for Christ to suffer the penalty your sins.

Sometimes you make me question whether you are really trusting in the Cross of Christ to save you.

I know you do. You should realize that I do believe that Christ suffered for my sin. Just not to the level you take it. I have a genuine and deep understanding of what Christ did and does for me. Sin isn't just about what you believe you received from Adam. My sin is my own. I see it more now than I ever have.

Much is forgiven me.

Luk 7:47 Therefore I tell you, her sins, which are many, are forgiven—for she loved much. But he who is forgiven little, loves little.”

The depth of my sin can never merit the kindness and love Jesus Christ shows me.
 
Responsibility does not mean we merit something.
if you do ANYTHING to earn, merit. or keep from losing something.

then no matter what it is, it is merit.

if my father gives me a gift. and gives me responsibilities as requirements to keep that gift. He is in effect making me merit the gift. meaning it is not really a gift to begin with.
This is the masquerade of Free Grace and Calvinism, both sharing the same logical error.
grace is free. to the giver.

But a great price was paid. the cross
Of course our sinful nature wants the cheap security of an abdication of all responsibility through full or semi-monergism.
actually our pride wants us to think we are above some standard. and not really all that bad. so it waters down the law so it appears we are ok people.

when if we looked God face to face. we would fall on our faces knowing how sinful and unworthy we are.

Lets pray we find this out now so we can act and call out for Gods salvation. Not in eternity, when its too late
Eliminating our responsibility is never what grace meant—ever.
pharisees thought the same way

Sadly only a few found Gods truth.

I can pray you will be one of them
 
pharisees thought the same way

Lordship OSAS is still the majority Eternal Security position over Free Grace.

They are at the very least not insane enough to try to act like Scripture abdicates a person of responsibility.

And to attribute to the Pharisees anything at all sincere, is not ever the testimony of Scripture.

Your doctrinal house is on sand and you have a false view of grace.
 
I do believe that Christ suffered for my sin. Just not to the level you take it.

Yes, you seem to think sin is less evil than it is, which is a very sneaky deception.

But this belief is cardinal, we will NOT enter heaven without the Cross.
 
Yes, you seem to think sin is less evil than it is, which is a very sneaky deception.

But this belief is cardinal, we will NOT enter heaven without the Cross.

Do you rank sin at all? I hope you realize that the Scriptures do. Nothing sneaky about anything.

I don't blame another for my sin. You obviously do.
 
Lordship OSAS is still the majority Eternal Security position over Free Grace.
I am not worried about them

I am worried about those trying to replace grace with works
They are at the very least not insane enough to try to act like Scripture abdicates a person of responsibility.
Your personal responsibility is to recieve the gift of salvation by trusting God with your eternity. having repented from your dead works
And to attribute to the Pharisees anything at all sincere, is not ever the testimony of Scripture.

Your doctrinal house is on sand and you have a false view of grace.
lol. False grace is trying to mix grace and works. its like mixing water and oil

Rom 11: 6 And IF BY GRACE, THAN IT IS NO LONGER OF WORKS, ; otherwise GRACE IS NO LONGER GRACE. But IF IT IS OF WORKS, THEN IT IS NO LONGER OF GRACE. OTHERWISE WORK IS NO LONGER WORK

Now you want to mix grace and works feel free. the pharisees tried this and failed..
 
Having someone pay for my sins is not blaming them.

Never said it was.

You need to understand grace cost God something in the Cross.

Grace has no cost whatsoever. If it does, then it isn't Grace. Grace comes from the very Character of God. Christ did what was His nature to do for humanity. His Character never changed. What you fail to realize is that your view of justice demanding the death of Christ is a farce.

His holiness does not sweep our sin under the rug and give us a wink.

You're deflecting. You're not really dealing with what I said here.

YOU blame your sin on some "nature" you received from what you believe Adam did to YOU. You blame ADAM for your source of sin. You can try to deflect all you want, it will never change this fact.

It is a parallel you've formed in your theology between the value of your sin and the Grace of God.

If you're going to "own your sin", then is no room to talk of some "sin nature" you inherited because of Adam.

You're blaming Adam in like manner you're blaming me for not properly acknowledging the "price of sin" as you see it.
 
My opinion doesn't matter in the least. But then, I didn't make any statements of opinion.

2 Tim 3:16-17
Scripture is the only thing that matters in discussions of Church doctrine and Truth.

Please tell me:
Who this "pillar of truth" is that you are referring to.
And who is it that was "sent to preach"?
What is it that "we taught you"?
Who was "appointed to resolve disputes on doctrine"?
Who was given power to "bind and loose"?

Many church groups have different doctrines on many things that are not essential for salvation. For instance, salvation is not based on whether you have instrumental music or not. It is not based on whether you use one cup for communion or many. It is not based on whether you believe in the physical millennial reign or not (premil, amil, postmil, etc.). These things should not cause division, I'll grant you, but they do not make a church not part of the Church.

But following the pope instead of following Christ does make a church not part of the Church. Following a bunch of men who have rewritten the Scripture so that it appears to uphold their bid for earthly power does make them not part of God's Church.

Mike, we had to find the Church again, because the catholic cultists had fallen from the faith. Yes, they may in their very early beginnings have been the true Church. But over the years they have allowed their priests to lead them further and further from Truth.

I asked you to please show us where in Scripture it says that Communion must be given by a "bishop in succession". I would accept it if you can show me where that command is given in God's Word.
2 Tim 3 16 does not sola scriptura or anything remotely similar.
Protestants always twist scripture to pretend it means what they say,
Which is why all of you disageee with each other on all the essentials.
indeed you can’t even agree on what is essential!

The false doctrine of sola scriptura is why the rest of your theology is your problem which contradicts what Jesus taught.
The faith handed down.

Now study the early church, find the truth instead . Which is catholic.
Find the mechanisms Jesus gave to resolve disputes . The apostolic succession can bind and loose.

Even your New Testament is a product of the power of the Catholic Church to bind and loose.
 
2 Tim 3 16 does not sola scriptura or anything remotely similar.
Protestants always twist scripture to pretend it means what they say,
Which is why all of you disageee with each other on all the essentials.
indeed you can’t even agree on what is essential!

The false doctrine of sola scriptura is why the rest of your theology is your problem which contradicts what Jesus taught.
The faith handed down.

Now study the early church, find the truth instead . Which is catholic.
Find the mechanisms Jesus gave to resolve disputes . The apostolic succession can bind and loose.

Even your New Testament is a product of the power of the Catholic Church to bind and loose.
The Apostles were a select group of only 14 men: the original 12 less Judas plus Matthias, and then Paul. These men were not given the authority, mandate, or instruction to pass on their office to anyone else. When the last Apostle, John, died there were never any more apostles. There is no such thing as an "apostolic succession". The priests of the catholic cult did not inherit the Apostles' authority or commission. Every member of the Church has the same power and authority to "bind and loose" that the Apostles did (Matt 28:19-20).

The concept of the "catholic" church did not come about until the mid third century. They have since backdated their religion in order to make it seem older, but Christ did not establish the catholic church/cult. Peter was NOT the first pope. The first time the word pope was used was in the late third century. The very concept of a separate "priesthood" is foreign to the NT. ALL Christ followers are part of the priesthood to God.

As for 2 Tim 3:16, it says that all Scripture is inspired by God. This means that it is authored by God, literally placed within the mind of the writers by God. This means that there is no error, contradiction, mistake, or conflict within Scripture: OT as well as NT.

The OT had been accepted as Scripture for hundreds of years before Christ, and Jesus gave credibility to the OT Scriptures by quoting from them.
The NT Scriptures are not catholic. The vast majority of them were accepted within the Church within the first century. Peter recognized Paul's writings as Scripture (2 Pet 3:16). Paul recognized Luke's writings as Scripture (1 Tim 5:18). The counsels where you think the Scripture was "established" did not "establish" anything; they simply recognized what had already been accepted for quite a while. They did exclude some writings that some groups wanted to include, because they had reason to doubt the validity of it. Examples of these would be the gospel of Thomas, the gospel of Mary, the epistle of Barnabas, and many others.
 
2 Tim 3 16 does not sola scriptura or anything remotely similar.
Protestants always twist scripture to pretend it means what they say,
Which is why all of you disageee with each other on all the essentials.
indeed you can’t even agree on what is essential!

The false doctrine of sola scriptura is why the rest of your theology is your problem which contradicts what Jesus taught.
The faith handed down.

Now study the early church, find the truth instead . Which is catholic.
Find the mechanisms Jesus gave to resolve disputes . The apostolic succession can bind and loose.

Even your New Testament is a product of the power of the Catholic Church to bind and loose.
Yes, and when one of the priest defected from being a RCC priest they killed him.

William Tyndale
William Tyndale was the first to translate the Old Testament from Hebrew into English, although he is best known for his translation of the New Testament. His work laid the foundation for later English translations of the Bible.

William Tyndale was initially ordained as a Roman Catholic priest, but he later became a key figure in the Protestant Reformation, advocating for the translation of the Bible into English and challenging Catholic doctrines. His beliefs eventually led to his execution for heresy in 1536
 
The Apostles were a select group of only 14 men: the original 12 less Judas plus Matthias, and then Paul. These men were not given the authority, mandate, or instruction to pass on their office to anyone else. When the last Apostle, John, died there were never any more apostles. There is no such thing as an "apostolic succession". The priests of the catholic cult did not inherit the Apostles' authority or commission. Every member of the Church has the same power and authority to "bind and loose" that the Apostles did (Matt 28:19-20).

The concept of the "catholic" church did not come about until the mid third century. They have since backdated their religion in order to make it seem older, but Christ did not establish the catholic church/cult. Peter was NOT the first pope. The first time the word pope was used was in the late third century. The very concept of a separate "priesthood" is foreign to the NT. ALL Christ followers are part of the priesthood to God.

As for 2 Tim 3:16, it says that all Scripture is inspired by God. This means that it is authored by God, literally placed within the mind of the writers by God. This means that there is no error, contradiction, mistake, or conflict within Scripture: OT as well as NT.

The OT had been accepted as Scripture for hundreds of years before Christ, and Jesus gave credibility to the OT Scriptures by quoting from them.
The NT Scriptures are not catholic. The vast majority of them were accepted within the Church within the first century. Peter recognized Paul's writings as Scripture (2 Pet 3:16). Paul recognized Luke's writings as Scripture (1 Tim 5:18). The counsels where you think the Scripture was "established" did not "establish" anything; they simply recognized what had already been accepted for quite a while. They did exclude some writings that some groups wanted to include, because they had reason to doubt the validity of it. Examples of these would be the gospel of Thomas, the gospel of Mary, the epistle of Barnabas, and many others.
You have clearly never studied the early church of the apostles.
Study it.
All your assumptions are false.
And as you confirm 2 Tim says nothing about sola scriptura,
Indeed scripture identifies sources of truth outside itself.
So sola scriptura is neither historically, scripturally or logically true,

It is also why all Protestabts disagree with each other on all the basics .
Calvin didn’t agree with luther or Zwingli.
Calvinists do not believe what calvin did , Lutherans do not agree with Luther!
So sola scriptura doesn’t work. To quote Luther in despair of the monster he created he said “ every milkmaid now has their own doctrine”

The problem is if you only have tge words of scripture not the meaning you do not have the word of God.

Catholics believe the true church comprising scripture, and meaning provide by authority of councils and tradition handed down from the first.

Protestants only believe in their own arrogance combined with scripture, and schism if anyone disagrees,

Yet they are told not to “ lean on their own understanding” by scripture but to listen to those who were “sent”.
You don’t.

Here is an example of tradition, the faith handed down.
eg what John meant when he echoed Jesus words in John 6 , we know because he passed it to his disciples in succession.
So read ignatius to smyrneans who tells you what John taught him. The first generation of succession
A Eucharist of the real flesh valid only if presided by bishop in succession .
So that is what John 6 means.
And as Paul says “ stay true to what we taught you by word of mouth and letter”

Without tradition and authority you only have words , not the word of God

Catholics have the true faith, handed down from the start, as traditon , with the sources of authority Jesus gav3 to bind and loose. As Jesus promised the gates of hell would not prevail against His church.

For the first time, study the early church and what it believed. You clearly don’t know.
 
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