"Works Salvation"

[Seabass]

Which is why i ask everyone = 'which came first the chicken or the egg???'

Answer: Christ's Obedience SAVES us, when we are obedient to God's Calling us

"thru the Obedience of One Man, many will be made righteous"

Notice how the Holy Spirit does not include our obedience in Salvation but only CHRIST's in
this direct declaration.

Once God firmly establishes CHRIST's Obedience in the heart of the man/woman HE is calling, then our response is to obey the Father's Call to come to CHRIST

Yes or No?

Without Christ's obedience there would be no salvation at all for man. But Christ did obey His Father by going to the cross but that does not mean man does not have to obey God too. Man is to follow in Christ's steps by obeying Christ Heb 5:8-9.

Paul does NOT say many will be made righteous UNCONDITIONALLY. People read the idea of "unconditional" into these verses in Rom 5. Paul begins Rom 5 by saying justified by faith...faith is CONDITIONAL upon being justified. Hence justification of life is CONDITIONAL upon having faith. Christ's obedience in going to the cross does not UNCONDITIONALLY saved all men but saves those who CONDITIONALLY have an OBEDIENT faith.

 

[Seabass]

@Seabass



You must be God to change from a nature of disobedience to God, unto obedience to God. You need no Saviour

Man must have a Saviour to be saved but man can choose to obey that Saviour and be saved (Heb 5:9) of obey not and be lost in flaming fire (2 Thess 1;8) where obedience is the separating line between the saved and lost and not some random, unconditional choice God makes for man.

 

[brightfame52]

Man must have a Saviour to be saved but man can choose to obey that Saviour and be saved (Heb 5:9) of obey not and be lost in flaming fire (2 Thess 1;8) where obedience is the separating line between the saved and lost and not some random, unconditional choice God makes for man.

Man by nature is bound over to disobedience Rom 11:32

32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

This word unbelief is also disobedience, now by nature God hath concluded man in unbelief or disobedience.

For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.NKJV

Now you saying, man can freewill his way out of this prison and obey, thats Greater than God

 

[brightfame52]

@Seabass

Without Christ's obedience there would be no salvation at all for man.

True, but His Obedience effects Salvation Heb 5:9

9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

The obeying Him is the result/fruit of Him being the author of their Salvation. In other words obedience to Him comes from Him saving us,

By nature we are children of disobedience Eph 2:2-3

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

The hear you say it, all the children of disobedience have to do is exercise their freewill and become obedient children lol
1 Pet 1:13-14

13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

14 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:

 

[brightfame52]

@Seabass

Paul does NOT say many will be made righteous UNCONDITIONALLY.

It was conditioned on Christs obedience, by His obedience many shall be made righteous, or obedient Heb 5:9

The word righteous in Rom 5:19 dikaios:
righteous, observing/obeying divine laws

1. in a wide sense, upright, righteous, virtuous, keeping the commands of God
   
   1. of those who seem to themselves to be righteous, who pride themselves to be righteous, who pride themselves in their virtues, whether real or imagined
   2. innocent, faultless, guiltles
   3. 
      
   4. 
      
   5. used of him whose way of thinking, feeling, and acting is wholly conformed to the will of God, and who therefore needs no rectification in the heart or life
      
      

• Paul's ministry was to make gentiles obedient Rom 15:18
• 
  
• For I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ hath not wrought by me, to make the Gentiles obedient, by word and deed,

 

[DavidTree]

Man must have a Saviour to be saved but man can choose to obey that Saviour and be saved (Heb 5:9) of obey not and be lost in flaming fire (2 Thess 1;8) where obedience is the separating line between the saved and lost and not some random, unconditional choice God makes for man.

Is it our own choice - completely of ourselves in deciding to be saved?

 

[charismaticlady]

The obeying Him is the result/fruit of Him being the author of their Salvation. In other words obedience to Him comes from Him saving us,

By nature we are children of disobedience Eph 2:2-3

Is it our own choice - completely of ourselves in deciding to be saved?

After 30 years of going to church from childhood and then being trapped in a love-affair with a married man I found out that repentance was not from the adultery, like I could stop it, but the realization, an epiphany, that I didn't WANT to stop! You see, I had tried to stop month after month only to go back to him again and again. why? Because I wanted to. That is when I told God (the actual author of our faith) to not let it be up to me, but up to him. And then give him the strength to stay away from me when I tried again to get him back. One week later after God worked on him (an atheist Jew) he broke up with me. Two weeks later when I had asked a couple at my church to introduce me to someone, that introduction got thwarted I asked God why. "Don't you want me to date a Christian???" It was then that He spoke to me for the first time ever. He said, "NOOOOOOOOO! It was more of a yell. That really shocked but confused me too, but somehow I knew He was going to go on. So I listened hard and He continued and said, "You look to man for your love. I want to be your love. You look to man for your security, I want to be your security." Then four more sentences that also seared into my heart for me to never forget. Then He took away my sin. I felt this dark heaviness lift right out of my body and I felt light as a feather. Then He poured His Spirit into me and all desire to sin left me completely. So if you believe Jesus leaves us with a sin nature, you're wrong. Jesus doesn't do anything half-measure. He cleanses our nature of all unrighteousness back to Adam's first nature when he was perfect, but with free will. We still have choices to make in life, but by partaking of the divine nature of God, 2 Peter 1:2-4 we love what He loves and hates what He hates. It is not in our nature to sin anymore, but as verses 5-11 shows us, Jesus as also the finisher of our faith, starts maturing all the fruit of the Spirit.

Revelation 22:11 shows that those who make it to heaven are either righteous (the sins of lawlessness unto death are taken away) or holy (the sins not unto death of His maturing all the fruit of the Spirit) until we will never stumble again.

 

[mikepec]

The oddity of threads like this is no Christian believes in “salvation by works” - except Pharisee judaism that Jesus contested.

Those accused of it - Catholics - certainly do not believe in salvation by works, it is one of many false straw men used by illinformed Protestants as a stick to beat Catholics with.

Formal logic is needed to clarify. The difference between logically “necessary” and “ sufficient.”

Filling out an application form is “necessary “ to apply for most jobs.
It’s a condition but it is not “ sufficient” it doesn’t get you the job.
Many others apply but don’t get the job.
If you are asked to fill a form but refuse you certainly won’t get the job.

Salvation by works implies works are sufficient. Nobody believes that.

But our Lord is clear , faith demands obedience. The opposite of faith is to disobey. John 3:36
and Jesus tells you a lot of things you must DO which are works.
Matt 25:31 tells you some and what happens if you don’t!

You are saved by grace through faith. Nothing you can do is good enough. The works are a reflection of our Lord working through you.

But formed faith has obedience and so works.
You are not an automaton. You have free will. You can chose every day to do or not do.

But obedience is how you show you have faith.
Then the just judge decides.

There are many dimensions to works. A valid Eucharist John 6 is part of it.
So what are the faith alone zealots going to say to our lord when he asks “ so why didn’t you do what I asked? “

Im not sure our Lord will welcome a theology lesson from a Protestant, saying “ no Lord you are wrong… this is what your Bible means!! “

Our Lord has already told you in Mat 25 what happens if you don’t! So there are no excuses”

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

The oddity of threads like this is no Christian believes in “salvation by works” - except Pharisee judaism that Jesus contested.

wow. yuo do not read many posts do you. Many in here believe in salvation by works

Those accused of it - Catholics - certainly do not believe in salvation by works, it is one of many false straw men used by illinformed Protestants as a stick to beat Catholics with.

Yet they do. They claim all these works (they call them sacraments I believe0 are required to be saved.

Formal logic is needed to clarify. The difference between logically “necessary” and “ sufficient.”

Filling out an application form is “necessary “ to apply for most jobs.
It’s a condition but it is not “ sufficient” it doesn’t get you the job.
Many others apply but don’t get the job.
If you are asked to fill a form but refuse you certainly won’t get the job.

Salvation by works implies works are sufficient. Nobody believes that.

No. Salvation by works implies if we do not do these works (how ever many we must do0 we will not be saved, hence they are required.

But our Lord is clear , faith demands obedience. The opposite of faith is to disobey. John 3:36
and Jesus tells you a lot of things you must DO which are works.
Matt 25:31 tells you some and what happens if you don’t!

You disobey by not repenting and coming to faith.

You are saved by grace through faith. Nothing you can do is good enough. The works are a reflection of our Lord working through you.

Then no works are required. period.

But formed faith has obedience and so works.
You are not an automaton. You have free will. You can chose every day to do or not do.

Yes you can

and you can chose to repent and receive Christ, and become a child of God saved forever by his work

or you can chose to continue to try to save yourself or keep from losing what you think is salvation by doing works

then after this decision, you can chose. because God first loved you. to serve others and bear fruit as you do the works God created you ANEW to do

But obedience is how you show you have faith.
Then the just judge decides.

So God need proof?

There are many dimensions to works. A valid Eucharist John 6 is part of it.

There is no eucharist in John 6

Jesus said in John 6 the food he came to give endures forever. Whoever drinks and eats will NEVER die, they will NEVER hunger, NEVER thirst. they will live FOREVER, they will NEVER be lost. they will NEVER DIE. and trhey WILL BE raised on the last day.

the eucharist promises non of these to those who partake. it is no better than manna, which people eat all the time, yet die

So what are the faith alone zealots going to say to our lord when he asks “ so why didn’t you do what I asked? “

We are saved by faith alone, but faith is never alone

Im not sure our Lord will welcome a theology lesson from a Protestant, saying “ no Lord you are wrong… this is what your Bible means!! “

Our Lord has already told you in Mat 25 what happens if you don’t! So there are no excuses”

ahh,, Following in your jewish footsteps.. Do you pump your chest often praising God your not like us?

 

[mikepec]

wow. yuo do not read many posts do you. Many in here believe in salvation by works

Yet they do. They claim all these works (they call them sacraments I believe0 are required to be saved.


No. Salvation by works implies if we do not do these works (how ever many we must do0 we will not be saved, hence they are required.

You disobey by not repenting and coming to faith.



Then no works are required. period.

Yes you can

and you can chose to repent and receive Christ, and become a child of God saved forever by his work

or you can chose to continue to try to save yourself or keep from losing what you think is salvation by doing works

then after this decision, you can chose. because God first loved you. to serve others and bear fruit as you do the works God created you ANEW to do

So God need proof?

There is no eucharist in John 6

Jesus said in John 6 the food he came to give endures forever. Whoever drinks and eats will NEVER die, they will NEVER hunger, NEVER thirst. they will live FOREVER, they will NEVER be lost. they will NEVER DIE. and trhey WILL BE raised on the last day.

the eucharist promises non of these to those who partake. it is no better than manna, which people eat all the time, yet die

We are saved by faith alone, but faith is never alone



ahh,, Following in your jewish footsteps.. Do you pump your chest often praising God your not like us?

I notice you have never read the early church fathers so you impose your opinion on what scripture means.
John the apostle taught his disciples who left writings so you know what he meant.

It’s time you studied what Jesus meant, not what your irrelevant opinion thinks scripture means.
The Eucharist is a sacrament, is the body of Jesus, is necessary. Jesus said so. John repeated what Jesus meant, his disciples repeated what he said it means. Valid only if presided by a succession Bishop. The true church is “ the pillar of truth” and has repeated it ever since.

Start with ignatius , disciple of John , to Smyrneans if you care about truth.
If you only have the Bible you do not have the word of God, you only have words.
You need tradition ( the true faith handed down) and authority to have the right meaning, and it is the meaning that is the word of God.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

I notice you have never read the early church fathers so you impose your opinion on what scripture means.

Actually, I read the bible. they were the early church fathers. Start in the bood of matthew, and continue to revelation and you have all the writtings of the early church fathers.

other than that, You have words of men

John the apostle taught his disciples who left writings so you know what he meant.

lol. You were not there.. so listen to john, not these men

It’s time you studied what Jesus meant, not what your irrelevant opinion thinks scripture means.
The Eucharist is a sacrament, is the body of Jesus, is necessary. Jesus said so. John repeated what Jesus meant, his disciples repeated what he said it means. Valid only if presided by a succession Bishop. The true church is “ the pillar of truth” and has repeated it ever since.

If the eucharist does not give everything jesus said in John 6 to everyone who drinks and eats.

then it is not supported by John 6.

Start with ignatius , disciple of John , to Smyrneans if you care about truth.
If you only have the Bible you do not have the word of God, you only have words.
You need tradition ( the true faith handed down) and authority to have the right meaning, and it is the meaning that is the word of God.

I will start with john 6. He was an apostle and can be trusted. he wrote jesus words down for me to read.

I would suggest you do this yourself. read john 6. and tell me why Jesus lied

 

[mikepec]

Actually, I read the bible. they were the early church fathers. Start in the bood of matthew, and continue to revelation and you have all the writtings of the early church fathers.

other than that, You have words of men

lol. You were not there.. so listen to john, not these men

If the eucharist does not give everything jesus said in John 6 to everyone who drinks and eats.

then it is not supported by John 6.



I will start with john 6. He was an apostle and can be trusted. he wrote jesus words down for me to read.

I would suggest you do this yourself. read john 6. and tell me why Jesus lied

You make all the usual Protestant errors and heresies

1/ the early church was not sola scriptura. The New Testament did not exist then. As Paul says stay true to traditon.
2/ the early church handed the faith down. Paradosis. Tradition, Read ignatius , iraneus to find out what jesus meant. It took disputes to councils of succession bishops to bind and loose,
3/ you do what you are told not to do “you lean on your own understanding” , you do not listen to those who were “ sent” to teach you.
4/ You do not listen to the “ pillar of truth” to whom disputes are to be taken given the power to “ bind and loose”
All in quotes are biblical. Look them up.

The arrogance of Protestants amazes me.
I was one, I saw all the errors you make.
scripture is not easy to undersrand which is why you all disagree on every aspect of doctrine.

Every time you disagree and because you lack authority to decide you schism. It’s why there are tens of thousands of denominations who all disagree with each other. How so if you think it is easy to understand?

You can be sure that in your own town when your preacher says a verse means XYZ , another preacher down the road says it means something else. Why? If the false doctrine of sola scriptura works?

None of you want to abolish the pope you want to be the pope over your one man cult.

But Even luther lamented his error with sola scriptura “ now every milkmaid has their own doctrine”

Luther calvin and Zwingli all disagreed, lutgerans don’t agree with luther or each other, calvinists don’t agree with Calvin. Why if any of you know what it means? You think you agree on basics, but you can’t even agree what basics are!

All of you should stop thinking you know what scripture means , you clearly don’t,
and listen to the only true church, that existed since the beginning. The church that compiled the New Testament!

The Catholic Church.

What I dislike most of all , is how YOU demean our Lord in believing he can’t keep his promise to keep his church on track , so as scripture says “the gospel will be preached to the end of time.” , not with a gap till eternally grateful redefined it. Seriously . Jesus does not need your help. He told his apostles who passed it on in succession. Listen to them.

If you want to know what john6 means, listen to the early church who handed it down. It’s never changed.
Until then you profane the Eucharist. That is serious.

“ You eat and drink judgement unto yourself” “ some are sick. Some have died”

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

You make all the usual Protestant errors and heresies

1/ the early church was not sola scriptura. The New Testament did not exist then. As Paul says stay true to traditon.
2/ the early church handed the faith down. Paradosis. Tradition, Read ignatius , iraneus to find out what jesus meant. It took disputes to councils of succession bishops to bind and loose,
3/ you do what you are told not to do “you lean on your own understanding” , you do not listen to those who were “ sent” to teach you.
4/ You do not listen to the “ pillar of truth” to whom disputes are to be taken given the power to “ bind and loose”
All in quotes are biblical. Look them up.

The arrogance of Protestants amazes me.
I was one, I saw all the errors you make.
scripture is not easy to undersrand which is why you all disagree on every aspect of doctrine.

Every time you disagree and because you lack authority to decide you schism. It’s why there are tens of thousands of denominations who all disagree with each other. How so if you think it is easy to understand?

You can be sure that in your own town when your preacher says a verse means XYZ , another preacher down the road says it means something else. Why? If the false doctrine of sola scriptura works?

None of you want to abolish the pope you want to be the pope over your one man cult.

But Even luther lamented his error with sola scriptura “ now every milkmaid has their own doctrine”

Luther calvin and Zwingli all disagreed, lutgerans don’t agree with luther or each other, calvinists don’t agree with Calvin. Why if any of you know what it means? You think you agree on basics, but you can’t even agree what basics are!

All of you should stop thinking you know what scripture means , you clearly don’t,
and listen to the only true church, that existed since the beginning. The church that compiled the New Testament!

The Catholic Church.

What I dislike most of all , is how YOU demean our Lord in believing he can’t keep his promise to keep his church on track , so as scripture says “the gospel will be preached to the end of time.” , not with a gap till eternally grateful redefined it. Seriously . Jesus does not need your help. He told his apostles who passed it on in succession. Listen to them.

If you want to know what john6 means, listen to the early church who handed it down. It’s never changed.
Until then you profane the Eucharist. That is serious.

“ You eat and drink judgement unto yourself” “ some are sick. Some have died”

Sorry bud. Don’t pump your chest so
Much. In order to be a protester I have to consider something real.

John 6 is there for all to read. god did not leave us unable to understand

Just read what it says

If you can not tell me why Jesus lied. I can’t follow you

If you believe what Jesus said. You can not follow a false church