"Works Salvation"

[Doug Brents]

If I get drunjk, and get behjind the wheels and drive, and die.

I have commited a sin leading to death

If in Jesus day, I drank to much, and fell off a cliff. and died.

I committed a sin leading to death

You are talking about physical death. Scripture doesn't care about physical death. Physical death does not separate us from God. Spiritual death does separate us from God. It is spiritual death in view here.

Thats because he was saved. He was a man after Gods own heart. a child of God.

What made David a man after God's own heart? It was his continual repentance for any sin he committed.

if sin can cause you to lose salvation. Then the cross is not enough..

It is our continual repentance that keeps us in the Light, and if we remain in the Light, then His blood continually cleanses us from all sin. That does not reduce the value and efficacy of the cross in any way

 

[mailmandan]

If I get drunk, and get behind the wheels and drive, and die.

I have committed a sin leading to death

If in Jesus day, I drank too much and fell off a cliff. and died.

I committed a sin leading to death

Certain folks jump to the conclusion that 1 John 5:16 is talking about believers committing certain sins that lead them to spiritual death, but that does not fit the context. 1 John 5:16 - If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that. 17 All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death. 18 We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; (the AMPC reads does not [deliberately and knowingly] practice committing sin) but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him.

*Notice there is sin not leading to death. Well, we all know that apart from the blood of Christ and the righteousness of God, which is by faith, ALL sin leads to spiritual death, so John must be referring to physical death here.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

You are talking about physical death.

so is scripture

Scripture doesn't care about physical death. Physical death does not separate us from God. Spiritual death does separate us from God. It is spiritual death in view here.

If your saved, you can't be separated from God. that's what the cross did. so it must be physical death

What made David a man after God's own heart? It was his continual repentance for any sin he committed.

Or it was the fact God knew his heart before he called him his child.

It is our continual repentance that keeps us in the Light, and if we remain in the Light, then His blood continually cleanses us from all sin. That does not reduce the value and efficacy of the cross in any way

your under law then. Good luck with that

 

[Doug Brents]

so is scripture

If your saved, you can't be separated from God. that's what the cross did. so it must be physical death

You can separate yourself from God if you live in unrepentant sin, even after initial salvation. It is your opinion that it is speaking of physical death, and I appreciate your opinion.

Or it was the fact God knew his heart before he called him his child.

What about his heart did God know? That he continually repented of every sin when confronted with it.

your under law then. Good luck with that

That is not what makes one "under law". Try again.

 

[JLB]

lol.. The law of moses is what condemns you.

if you have not kept it all

the law of christ contains 2 commands. Love God. and anyone you come in contact with (even your enemy)

if we could keep that perfectly. we would keep the law of moses perfectly.

since we can't do that. we continue to break the law of moses. which should point us to christ. But the one who waters down the law of Moses can't do that. he has deceived his or herself he is good..

The law of Moses was abolished.


The law of Christ is what we are obligated to obey.


Bear one another’s burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ. Galatians 6:2


His commandments are what we are to obey.


Eternal life is for those who obey Him.


And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him.
Hebrews 5:9

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

You can separate yourself from God if you live in unrepentant sin, even after initial salvation. It is your opinion that it is speaking of physical death, and I appreciate your opinion.

What about his heart did God know? That he continually repented of every sin when confronted with it.

That is not what makes one "under law". Try again.

then you are under law not grace.

and you do not have eternal life. you have conditional life

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

The law of Moses was abolished.

Actually the law will not cease..

for those not saved. it still is in work trying to lead them to christ.

also. the law could never save anyone. so not sure what your trying to prove

The law of Christ is what we are obligated to obey.

Do you do that perfectly? It is greater then the law of moses. if you can not keep the law of moeses. how can you keep the law of Christ?

Did God water down the law?

Bear one another’s burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ. Galatians 6:2


His commandments are what we are to obey.


Eternal life is for those who obey Him.


And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him.
Hebrews 5:9

yes. those who obey him have eternal life

those who do not have eternal life. are unable to obey him.

 

[Doug Brents]

then you are under law not grace.
and you do not have eternal life. you have conditional life

Eternal life does not start until the first resurrection (Rev 20:5-6). We have the promise of eternal life (if we remain faithful until the end (Rev 2:10, Matt 24:13, 2 Tim 2:12, 1 Cor 15:2)).

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Eternal life does not start until the first resurrection (Rev 20:5-6). We have the promise of eternal life (if we remain faithful until the end (Rev 2:10, Matt 24:13, 2 Tim 2:12, 1 Cor 15:2)).

Jesus said I have it (john 3) John said I have it, not only that I have it. but i can know I have it. and because I know I have it. I have courage to continue to believe. (1 john 5)

Again, Your under law

there is two ways in scripture to be made right God. Keep the law without fail. or receive God grace. not based on your merit or works. but based on his love and his promise

there is no other way

 

[Jim]

there is two ways in scripture to be made right God. Keep the law without fail. or receive God grace. not based on your merit or works. but based on his love and his promise

there is no other way

there is two ways in scripture to be made right God. Keep the law without fail. or receive God grace. not based on your merit or works. but based on his love and his promise AND your faith.

His love and His promise is there for absolutely everyone. The missing ingredient in all those not saved is their faith.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

there is two ways in scripture to be made right God. Keep the law without fail. or receive God grace. not based on your merit or works. but based on his love and his promise AND your faith.

His love and His promise is there for absolutely everyone. The missing ingredient in all those not saved is their faith.

so how you perverted what I said.

Both people have faith.

One trusts God. The cross

the other trusts the law. and their good deeds.

so adding your faith in nonsensical.

But you have to get your anticalvinist twist in..

 

[Jim]

so how you perverted what I said.

Both people have faith.

Good grief man. Faith in God not in the law.

 

[Doug Brents]

Jesus said I have it (john 3)

Nothing in John 3 contradicts or invalidates the fact that having eternal life is conditional upon finishing life in the faith.

John said I have it, not only that I have it. but i can know I have it. and because I know I have it. I have courage to continue to believe. (1 john 5)

1 John 5:11-12 says that eternal life is "in the Son". If you cease to have the Son, then you cease to have eternal life.

there is two ways in scripture to be made right God. Keep the law without fail. or receive God grace. not based on your merit or works. but based on his love and his promise

there is no other way

The problem you have is that you seem to think we receive God's grace just because we have a feeling in our heart once in our life, and then no matter what we do for the rest of our life, that one time feeling guarantees us life in Heaven with Jesus. Scripture does NOT tell us this. It is one of Satan's most insidious lies. The possession of eternal life is conditional upon our belief (faith) which demands active obedience (physical, not just in the heart) to God's commands. He is the Master; He is the one who must be obeyed, not ourselves.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Nothing in John 3 contradicts or invalidates the fact that having eternal life is conditional upon finishing life in the faith.

It says we will never perish, and we will live forever.

I guess never and forever have no meaning to you?

1 John 5:11-12 says that eternal life is "in the Son". If you cease to have the Son, then you cease to have eternal life.

Yes. and when were we given the son. When we recieve him.

Have you received him yet?

The problem you have is that you seem to think we receive God's grace just because we have a feeling in our heart once in our life,

No. If I just had a feeling. i did not have fsaith. if I did not have faith and trust God. I am not saved.

and then no matter what we do for the rest of our life, that one time feeling guarantees us life in Heaven with Jesus. Scripture does NOT tell us this. It is one of Satan's most insidious lies. The possession of eternal life is conditional upon our belief (faith) which demands active obedience (physical, not just in the heart) to God's commands. He is the Master; He is the one who must be obeyed, not ourselves.

You believe in your works. God said he will change us, I trust in Gods power and promise. it is obvious you do not not. your still trying to change yourself thinking you will measure up.

You will fail

 

[Jim]

It says we will never perish, and we will live forever.

Where in John 3 does it say that?

John 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

Clearly faith includes obedience. That faith must be a way of living, not simply a one-time event or a temporary thing.

 

[Doug Brents]

It says we will never perish, and we will live forever.

I guess never and forever have no meaning to you?

It says that IF WE ARE IN CHRIST we will live forever. It does not say that once we are "in Christ" we can never cease to be "in".

Yes. and when were we given the son. When we recieve him.

Indeed so. And then we must REMAIN/ABIDE/ENDURE.

Have you received him yet?

I have indeed, when I was 14.

No. If I just had a feeling. i did not have fsaith. if I did not have faith and trust God. I am not saved.

Very true. Yet that is what most of you "faith only" proponents teach.

You believe in your works. God said he will change us, I trust in Gods power and promise. it is obvious you do not not. your still trying to change yourself thinking you will measure up.

You will fail

LOL, I have never said anything about trying to "measure up". You are reading your own preconceptions and bias into what I have written. Go back and study the OT examples of God's gifts being given to individuals and groups (Naaman, the widow and Elijah, the widow with the debt, the nation of Israel taking the Promised Land, etc.). In every case, there is an action that the person or group must take to receive what God offers/has already given in order to take hold of or posses it. If the action is not taken, then the gift is not received. But the action does not in any way earn, deserve, or contribute to the purchase of the gift.

 

[DavidTree]

In every case, there is an action that the person or group must take to receive what God offers/has already given in order to take hold of or posses it. If the action is not taken, then the gift is not received. But the action does not in any way earn, deserve, or contribute to the purchase of the gift.

Correct

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Where in John 3 does it say that?

John 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

Clearly faith includes obedience. That faith must be a way of living, not simply a one-time event or a temporary thing.

Yes. it says when we LOOK IN FAIT. at THAT MOMENT we are given eternal life. and the promise we will never perish.

But you have shown you do not believe this, you think we can still perish.

Thats conditional life.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

It says that IF WE ARE IN CHRIST we will live forever. It does not say that once we are "in Christ" we can never cease to be "in".

No it says at the moment we place our faith in God will will never perish and we will live forecver.

The cross paid your debt, Not your good deeds.

 

[Doug Brents]

No it says at the moment we place our faith in God will will never perish and we will live forecver.

That is you reading your preconception into the Scripture. It is not what the Word says. There are conditions upon receiving His gift. You want to change the Word so that it fits your idea of who and what God is. But it doesn't work that way. Jesus says that IF you remain in me, THEN I will remain in you. You want it to be, ONCE you are in Me, I will FOREVER live in you.

The cross paid your debt, Not your good deeds.

As we see in the parable of the unforgiving servant, he was totally and completely forgiven (the mercy and grace of the Master). But when he proved that he would not pass that forgiveness along to others, the debt was REINSTATED, and he had to pay the debt back in full (Matt 18:23-34).