Women.

[MTMattie]

@360watt , @dwight92070

I have been following everyone's conversations with @charismaticlady in the thread "Is anyone else a seer."

Not going back past the last page or so @dwight92070 reply 701 there you stated ~When a pastor, such as Jack Hayford, directly contradicts Paul's words here - and tells us that it's okay for women to teach in the assembly of believers,

Are you specifically speaking of the assembly of believers as being that of a "church congregation " when they meet for their worship sessions or of the church congregation, no matter where meeting for instruction? (ie Sunday Schools, Bible Camps, Retreats, et al?

@360watt , in the same thread, you posted reply #705 with One thing about women keeping silent in the church..is the context is about speaking out of turn and speaking in tongues....It is still saying for woman not to hold the position of pastor/bishop, and ask their hubby at home about disputations, but isn't about not speaking at all.

So what I said above you do mention church congregation meeting for worship and I cannot help but wonder it also means no woman should speak in tongues?

Funny that the idea of women in the pulpit has fallen apart within my life time.

And more so when you have the likes of Marylyn Hickey and , heaven help us all, Paula White that are in so many homes today....
And the one I cannot understand that an entire church was built around "Ellen G White"... to name a few.

IOW. Are women ok if they are not in a pulpit? And should women not participate in forums such as these?

 

[Aeliana]

@360watt , @dwight92070

I have been following everyone's conversations with @charismaticlady in the thread "Is anyone else a seer."

Not going back past the last page or so @dwight92070 reply 701 there you stated ~When a pastor, such as Jack Hayford, directly contradicts Paul's words here - and tells us that it's okay for women to teach in the assembly of believers,

Are you specifically speaking of the assembly of believers as being that of a "church congregation " when they meet for their worship sessions or of the church congregation, no matter where meeting for instruction? (ie Sunday Schools, Bible Camps, Retreats, et al?

@360watt , in the same thread, you posted reply #705 with One thing about women keeping silent in the church..is the context is about speaking out of turn and speaking in tongues....It is still saying for woman not to hold the position of pastor/bishop, and ask their hubby at home about disputations, but isn't about not speaking at all.

So what I said above you do mention church congregation meeting for worship and I cannot help but wonder it also means no woman should speak in tongues?

Funny that the idea of women in the pulpit has fallen apart within my life time.

And more so when you have the likes of Marylyn Hickey and , heaven help us all, Paula White that are in so many homes today....
And the one I cannot understand that an entire church was built around "Ellen G White"... to name a few.

IOW. Are women ok if they are not in a pulpit? And should women not participate in forums such as these?

Well if men that think and act like they are wemen can preach and teach, then real wemen should be able to . And do it better since the are not being deceived.

 

[MTMattie]

Well if men that think and act like they are wemen can preach and teach, then real wemen should be able to . And do it better since the are not being deceived.

Well, be that as it may...

8I desire then that in every place the men should pray, lifting holy hands without anger or quarreling; 9likewise also that women should adorn themselves in respectable apparel, with modesty and self-control, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly attire, 10but with what is proper for women who profess godliness—with good works.11Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness.12I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet.13For Adam was formed first, then Eve; 14and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor.
—1 Timothy 2:8–14

An argument could be made that Eve was deceived by the serpent, then she deceived her husband into eating that fruit.

 

[Obadiah]

Well, be that as it may...

8I desire then that in every place the men should pray, lifting holy hands without anger or quarreling; 9likewise also that women should adorn themselves in respectable apparel, with modesty and self-control, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly attire, 10but with what is proper for women who profess godliness—with good works.11Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness.12I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet.13For Adam was formed first, then Eve; 14and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor.
—1 Timothy 2:8–14

An argument could be made that Eve was deceived by the serpent, then she deceived her husband into eating that fruit.

So Adam disobeyed God intentionally.

Adam disobeyed God and caused many others to be sinners. But Jesus obeyed him and will make many people acceptable to God.
Romans 5:19

As for 1 Timothy 2:8–14

The woman was deceived, but the man was not. Eve was tricked, but Adam rebelled outright. Yes, both the man and woman sinned, but Paul drew a fine point of distinction between Adam’s sin and the sin of Eve. This distinction relates to God’s order of authority. God is the ultimate head over Adam. As the head of his wife and family, Adam was spiritually responsible to God for them. But Adam rejected God’s order. He gave heed to his wife instead of obeying God and brought sin and death into the world (Romans 5:12; 1 Corinthians 15:21–22). God’s ideal design for order and authority was completely upended. Ever since the fall, this violation has spread throughout all society. But the Bible calls believers to honor God’s pattern for order and authority in the church.
They can still teach. Many women excel in gifts of hospitality, mercy, teaching, evangelism, and helping/serving. Much of the ministry of the local church depends on women.

What does the Bible say about women pastors? | GotQuestions.org

What does the Bible say about women pastors? Does the Bible restrict a woman from serving as a pastor?

www.gotquestions.org

 

[360watt]

@360watt , @dwight92070

I have been following everyone's conversations with @charismaticlady in the thread "Is anyone else a seer."

Not going back past the last page or so @dwight92070 reply 701 there you stated ~When a pastor, such as Jack Hayford, directly contradicts Paul's words here - and tells us that it's okay for women to teach in the assembly of believers,

Are you specifically speaking of the assembly of believers as being that of a "church congregation " when they meet for their worship sessions or of the church congregation, no matter where meeting for instruction? (ie Sunday Schools, Bible Camps, Retreats, et al?

@360watt , in the same thread, you posted reply #705 with One thing about women keeping silent in the church..is the context is about speaking out of turn and speaking in tongues....It is still saying for woman not to hold the position of pastor/bishop, and ask their hubby at home about disputations, but isn't about not speaking at all.

So what I said above you do mention church congregation meeting for worship and I cannot help but wonder it also means no woman should speak in tongues?

Funny that the idea of women in the pulpit has fallen apart within my life time.

And more so when you have the likes of Marylyn Hickey and , heaven help us all, Paula White that are in so many homes today....
And the one I cannot understand that an entire church was built around "Ellen G White"... to name a few.

IOW. Are women ok if they are not in a pulpit? And should women not participate in forums such as these?

I mean in the assembly for worship. I think it would also apply to a camp.. home study..if that is still members meeting in the church capacity.

The church isn't the building but the members of that local body (although it's local in nature as a body anyway)

A forum such as this..we are not gathered. It's not church. The Holy Spirit is not 'in the midst' of digital i and o.

But .. yeah .. I would contend the passage does mean women should not speak in tongues. But I also contend that prophecy and tongues have done there job anyway and ceased. So nowadays...neither would men.

The comparison in the scriptures is of disorder at the church at Corinth.. which had many problems. Confusion was there..disorder..too many people speaking in tongues.. Lord's Supper done indecent etc

And its that back drop..in which we have Paul saying women to be silent.

 

[MTMattie]

I mean in the assembly for worship. I think it would also apply to a camp.. home study..if that is still members meeting in the church capacity.

The church isn't the building but the members of that local body (although it's local in nature as a body anyway)

A forum such as this..we are not gathered. It's not church. The Holy Spirit is not 'in the midst' of digital i and o.

But .. yeah .. I would contend the passage does mean women should not speak in tongues. But I also contend that prophecy and tongues have done there job anyway and ceased. So nowadays...neither would men.

The comparison in the scriptures is of disorder at the church at Corinth.. which had many problems. Confusion was there..disorder..too many people speaking in tongues.. Lord's Supper done indecent etc

And its that back drop..in which we have Paul saying women to be silent.

Thank you @360watt ,

Makes perfect sense.... kind of.

I, am a woman... if you have not read my signature.... and at one time I daily spoke in tongues. Not in church, and not to people but only to God. Now this was not something that had church roots for me, because I can almost double over laughing
that until recently... (last 50 years or so) the congregation was so straightlaced that it would have been simply unacceptable.

Then came the day that the church got a more progressive pastor, and lost a few members from attendance when it did
the unheard of " alter call". Eventually, about 30 years ago the church started to progress toward "woke" ( sssshs... this was Presbyterian).. and while my church never has had a woman in the pulpit they have women in other areas.. and teaching the children... sometimes in the sanctuary... Another story for another day.

Back to tongues. My time with God and me speaking in them usually was when I was alone and driving and having some time
with Him.

Anyway, you said "A forum such as this..we are not gathered. It's not church. The Holy Spirit is not 'in the midst' of digital i and o."

While this is very truth... the Holy Spirit is present if through no other means then being within us if we have Him.
There have been times when it has been the Holy Spirit who has formed my responses in certain threads.

Thanks again for replying

 

[360watt]

Thank you @360watt ,

Makes perfect sense.... kind of.

I, am a woman... if you have not read my signature.... and at one time I daily spoke in tongues. Not in church, and not to people but only to God. Now this was not something that had church roots for me, because I can almost double over laughing
that until recently... (last 50 years or so) the congregation was so straightlaced that it would have been simply unacceptable.

Then came the day that the church got a more progressive pastor, and lost a few members from attendance when it did
the unheard of " alter call". Eventually, about 30 years ago the church started to progress toward "woke" ( sssshs... this was Presbyterian).. and while my church never has had a woman in the pulpit they have women in other areas.. and teaching the children... sometimes in the sanctuary... Another story for another day.

Back to tongues. My time with God and me speaking in them usually was when I was alone and driving and having some time
with Him.

Anyway, you said "A forum such as this..we are not gathered. It's not church. The Holy Spirit is not 'in the midst' of digital i and o."

While this is very truth... the Holy Spirit is present if through no other means then being within us if we have Him.
There have been times when it has been the Holy Spirit who has formed my responses in certain threads.

Thanks again for replying

Yeah..a believer has the Holy Spirit indwelling them . They can post in here empowered by Him

'In the midst ' is where the Holy Spirit is among a church...in His other role. Such as when He blesses the process of church members coming together to sort out disputes. (Matthew 18)

But with tongues.. how does your personal experience compare to the way it is laid out in scripture?

 

[MTMattie]

Yeah..a believer has the Holy Spirit indwelling them . They can post in here empowered by Him

'In the midst ' is where the Holy Spirit is among a church...in His other role. Such as when He blesses the process of church members coming together to sort out disputes. (Matthew 18)

But with tongues.. how does your personal experience compare to the way it is laid out in scripture?

I did not have a cognitive experience of the Holy Spirit imparting tongues on me.

It came about as I was watching one of my televangelists that I used to follow fairly regularly only because
he would take a book of the Bible, Start at the beginning and read the scripture and comment on each that was read.

When he was teaching on tongues, from the bible, it was after that that I could.

My admitted problem is I do not interpret and I know no one who does and that is why I only will pray to or talk to God that way.
In private so no one will hear or judge.

Do I know that it is real? Yes. For the simple reason that I almost flunked high school French for my inability to roll my Rs and
on the occasions I have been taught , or tried to be taught some basic Italian phrases I could never roll my Rs.

Yet one day as I was talking to God clear as a bell I was rolling my R's with no difficulty. It was one time only.

Back when I first started and not knowing what I might be saying I tried to type how it sounded to me in the computer and search. I did not get a translation but I did get that it was likely some old mideastern language.

Thant was about 20 years ago. But I have not stopped, but slowed as there is no one that can translate and since 12 or so years ago there has been such a negative attitude among online forums that I usually let it slide unless something ... such as your comment.. moves me to comment.

AND the fact that I began to and continued on with virtually the same words each time, now, which I assume is a prayer to God
I do not daily like I used to.

Just now I searched how I feel some of the words would be written for this and this is what came back from Wiki

Sal languages​

Branch of Sino-Tibetan languages
The Sal languages, also known as the Brahmaputran languages, are a branch of Tibeto-Burman languages spoken in northeast India, as well as parts of Bangladesh, Myanmar, and China.

Are tongues for today. IDK. I would say they are rare, unless you attend a Billy Burke healing service where they abound.... either before or after folks are slain in the Spirit. (No I never was) (But have attended)

But I do not think they are just for men. The bible is quite silent on that and as it does center on the men and if part of a religious service perhaps.

We do know that we are told

1 Corinthians 14:2​

“For one who speaks in a tongue speaks not to men but to God; for no one understands him, but he utters mysteries in the Spirit.”

I do believe this as when I have tried to find out what I have said I only get something like what WIKI said. NO translation.

Other then this I cannot comment as it is a complicated subject in a way, and biblically it seemed as if the gift was given when
the Holy Spirit came... That was not my experience.

Make no mistake. I have the Holy Spirit. How to say this????

He came softly when I first got my New birth and started an indepth and intense growth toward God and with God for 24 years.
I MUST ADD IN HERE THAT WHEN I SAY "GOD" I AM INCLUDING MY BELIEF OF THE TRINITY OF GOD THE FATHER, GOD THE SON AND GOD THE HOLY SPIRIT....... (Now, I had had my sins that I did not overtly recognize at the time but I did repent of what I knew I must at the time. ) Then something happened after 24 years and I slipped up. (That is between God and me) But after a long while it was like something smacked me upside the head and the Holy Spirit convicted me of every possible thing you can imagine. It was an experience that was both good and bad... so he was still with me, even though I may have turned his hair grey. It left now room for doubt that I must get on the straight and narrow...... right then.

But I always had the tongues ability even when I was not deserving.

OK... Ive talked on and on and probably did not tell you anything you wanted to know.

Sorry,

Blessings

 

[360watt]

I did not have a cognitive experience of the Holy Spirit imparting tongues on me.

It came about as I was watching one of my televangelists that I used to follow fairly regularly only because
he would take a book of the Bible, Start at the beginning and read the scripture and comment on each that was read.

When he was teaching on tongues, from the bible, it was after that that I could.

My admitted problem is I do not interpret and I know no one who does and that is why I only will pray to or talk to God that way.
In private so no one will hear or judge.

Do I know that it is real? Yes. For the simple reason that I almost flunked high school French for my inability to roll my Rs and
on the occasions I have been taught , or tried to be taught some basic Italian phrases I could never roll my Rs.

Yet one day as I was talking to God clear as a bell I was rolling my R's with no difficulty. It was one time only.

Back when I first started and not knowing what I might be saying I tried to type how it sounded to me in the computer and search. I did not get a translation but I did get that it was likely some old mideastern language.

Thant was about 20 years ago. But I have not stopped, but slowed as there is no one that can translate and since 12 or so years ago there has been such a negative attitude among online forums that I usually let it slide unless something ... such as your comment.. moves me to comment.

AND the fact that I began to and continued on with virtually the same words each time, now, which I assume is a prayer to God
I do not daily like I used to.

Just now I searched how I feel some of the words would be written for this and this is what came back from Wiki

Sal languages​

Branch of Sino-Tibetan languages
The Sal languages, also known as the Brahmaputran languages, are a branch of Tibeto-Burman languages spoken in northeast India, as well as parts of Bangladesh, Myanmar, and China.

Are tongues for today. IDK. I would say they are rare, unless you attend a Billy Burke healing service where they abound.... either before or after folks are slain in the Spirit. (No I never was) (But have attended)

But I do not think they are just for men. The bible is quite silent on that and as it does center on the men and if part of a religious service perhaps.

We do know that we are told

1 Corinthians 14:2​

I do believe this as when I have tried to find out what I have said I only get something like what WIKI said. NO translation.

Other then this I cannot comment as it is a complicated subject in a way, and biblically it seemed as if the gift was given when
the Holy Spirit came... That was not my experience.

Make no mistake. I have the Holy Spirit. How to say this????View attachment 1747

He came softly when I first got my New birth and started an indepth and intense growth toward God and with God for 24 years.
I MUST ADD IN HERE THAT WHEN I SAY "GOD" I AM INCLUDING MY BELIEF OF THE TRINITY OF GOD THE FATHER, GOD THE SON AND GOD THE HOLY SPIRIT....... (Now, I had had my sins that I did not overtly recognize at the time but I did repent of what I knew I must at the time. ) Then something happened after 24 years and I slipped up. (That is between God and me) But after a long while it was like something smacked me upside the head and the Holy Spirit convicted me of every possible thing you can imagine. It was an experience that was both good and bad... so he was still with me, even though I may have turned his hair grey. It left now room for doubt that I must get on the straight and narrow...... right then.

But I always had the tongues ability even when I was not deserving.

OK... Ive talked on and on and probably did not tell you anything you wanted to know.

Sorry,

Blessings

Doesn't really matter what I want to know so much.

I was a charismatic in my youth.. I would get into a kind of heightened state mentally in worship service and then do sort of word free association that sounded like gibberish/gabble.

I don't think that was tongues. But I'm with you on the Trinity.. I don't get why alot of forums let members on who deny it.. I understand with this one..because I know it's got areas set aside to discuss for those who don't hold to it.

 

[MTMattie]

Doesn't really matter what I want to know so much.

I was a charismatic in my youth.. I would get into a kind of heightened state mentally in worship service and then do sort of word free association that sounded like gibberish/gabble.

I don't think that was tongues. But I'm with you on the Trinity.. I don't get why alot of forums let members on who deny it.. I understand with this one..because I know it's got areas set aside to discuss for those who don't hold to it.

Interesting.

"that sounded like gibberish/gabble."

I would assume tongues was exactly that to the speakers ears.... gibberish because it sounds that way to me.

And is exactly why I first tried to find out what I was saying almost 2 decades ago. And came away with just reading it was
a form od old mideastern language.... no interpretation.... Not that it was not anything... but satisfied me.

Then the one time I was so perfectly rolling my Rs, in my own ear might have sounded Spanishy... I do not doubt.

I will tell you that before I pray in tongues, or talk with God, or even have been known to sing I always declare I want to pray to him in the unknown tongue that the Holy Spirit will keep me from making a mistake in. Be that right or wrong, having no one to talk to on the subject I just want to be certain that nothing else is interfering with my time and God, if you understand my meaning on that.

Thank you so much for sharing with me.

May blessings abound for you and your family.