With the New Covenant, How many Natures Do We Have?

[charismaticlady]

We are born with a Sin Nature. Do you believe that the blood of Jesus takes away the sin out of our nature? Or do you believe the blood of Jesus is not that powerful and we still live with our sin nature? And Jesus added a sin-free nature so that we now have two natures? If the latter, please give scriptures. Or if you have a third concept, what is it? And scriptures of course.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

We are born with a Sin Nature.

We are born with a HUMAN nature - same as Adam was created with, and Jesus had during His sojourn with us.

Do you believe that the blood of Jesus takes away the sin out of our nature?

Nope. our HUMAN nature doesn't change, but when one is BORN AGAIN, the Holy SPirit indwells us and begins to produce Rom 8:29.

Or do you believe the blood of Jesus is not that powerful and we still live with our sin nature?

Jesus BLOOD was a SIN OFFERING (Isa 53:10). It accomplishes what It was meant to do. - i.e. cleanses us from SIN, and since we've JUDGED ourselves (Crucified with HIM), The law has no further hold on us.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Nature stays with me as much as I live on this earth, in this society and, especially, in this body.
Let's consider the case of Paul.
Paul was able to say that he was crucified along with Christ and that the life he lived now was not his life, but the life of Christ.
However, this holy Paul, apostle of Christ, who rejoiced in the life of Christ, sometimes also lamented his condition:

I know that my selfish desires won't let me do anything that is good. Even when I want to do right, I cannot. Instead of doing what I know is right, I do wrong. And so, if I don't do what I know is right, I am no longer the one doing these evil things. The sin that lives in me is what does them.​

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The Law has shown me that something in me keeps me from doing what I know is right. With my whole heart I agree with the Law of God. But in every part of me I discover something fighting against my mind, and it makes me a prisoner of sin that controls everything I do. What a miserable person I am. Who will rescue me from this body that is doomed to die? Thank God! Jesus Christ will rescue me.​

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So with my mind I serve the Law of God, although my selfish desires make me serve the law of sin. (Romans 7:18-25, CEV)​

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

So, the Gospel makes us free from the rule or slavery of the flesh. Not from the flesh itself.
It is good that we have this body and can experience temptations. In the big scheme of things, our failures will end up bringing us closer to God.

Salvation, therefore, is not a sort of "ON/OFF" switch. It is a process, a journey, a walk over water. A walk in which we will sink from time to time, and shout out for divine help.

 

[charismaticlady]

Nature stays with me as much as I live on this earth, in this society and, especially, in this body.
Let's consider the case of Paul.
Paul was able to say that he was crucified along with Christ and that the life he lived now was not his life, but the life of Christ.
However, this holy Paul, apostle of Christ, who rejoiced in the life of Christ, sometimes also lamented his condition:

I know that my selfish desires won't let me do anything that is good. Even when I want to do right, I cannot. Instead of doing what I know is right, I do wrong. And so, if I don't do what I know is right, I am no longer the one doing these evil things. The sin that lives in me is what does them.​

​

The Law has shown me that something in me keeps me from doing what I know is right. With my whole heart I agree with the Law of God. But in every part of me I discover something fighting against my mind, and it makes me a prisoner of sin that controls everything I do. What a miserable person I am. Who will rescue me from this body that is doomed to die? Thank God! Jesus Christ will rescue me.​

​

So with my mind I serve the Law of God, although my selfish desires make me serve the law of sin. (Romans 7:18-25, CEV)​

Thanks for your answer but this scripture in Romans 7 is about us having the sin nature BEFORE Christ. I want you to tell me what you believe we have AFTER being born again of the Spirit. If you notice, Roman 7 answers that in verses 5-6. Verses 14-25 is like a flash-back to life under the Law.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Thanks for your answer but this scripture in Romans 7 is about us having the sin nature BEFORE Christ. I want you to tell me what you believe we have AFTER being born again of the Spirit. If you notice, Roman 7 answers that in verses 5-6. Verses 14-25 is like a flash-back to life under the Law.

I appreciate your insight, my sister.
However, Paul is talking in present tense and, more importantly, keeps talking to the believers in present tense regarding their current situation.
Please continue your reading of chapter 7 for over few verses more, up to chapter 8.
Paul tells the brethren:

People who are ruled by their desires think only of themselves. Everyone who is ruled by the Holy Spirit thinks about spiritual things. If our minds are ruled by our desires, we will die. But if our minds are ruled by the Spirit, we will have life and peace. Our desires fight against God, because they do not and cannot obey God's laws. If we follow our desires, we cannot please God. (Romans 8:5-8) ​

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and then​

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My dear friends, we must not live to satisfy our desires. If you do, you will die. But you will live, if by the help of God's Spirit you say “No” to your desires (Romans 8;12,13)​

​

What would be the case for Paul's exhortation, if believers were without risk of living to satisfy their desires?​

 

[charismaticlady]

I appreciate your insight, my sister.
However, Paul is talking in present tense and, more importantly, keeps talking to the believers in present tense regarding their current situation.
Please continue your reading of chapter 7 for over few verses more, up to chapter 8.
Paul tells the brethren:

People who are ruled by their desires think only of themselves. Everyone who is ruled by the Holy Spirit thinks about spiritual things. If our minds are ruled by our desires, we will die. But if our minds are ruled by the Spirit, we will have life and peace. Our desires fight against God, because they do not and cannot obey God's laws. If we follow our desires, we cannot please God. (Romans 8:5-8) ​

​

and then​

​

My dear friends, we must not live to satisfy our desires. If you do, you will die. But you will live, if by the help of God's Spirit you say “No” to your desires (Romans 8;12,13)​

​

What would be the case for Paul's exhortation, if believers were without risk of living to satisfy their desires?​

That is from a western mindset. The apostles were eastern. So make up your mind are you under the law and in the flesh; or not in the flesh and out from under the law. You seem to chose the Law because you are a westerner. I chose to study how the easterners wrote so I know what they MEAN. Here's another eastern scripture that most westerners get wrong. John is writing to his congregation and telling them I'm writing this so you may not sin. So what is your interpretation of 1 John 1:8?

See if you can find the key word in 1 John 2, then go back and read chapter 1 again and continue discerning the key word and see if you can see what he MEANS.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

That is from a western mindset. The apostles were eastern.

Thanks for keeping the conversation alive. I will comment on 1 John 1:8 on the next post.

The antagonism between attachment to desires and detachment from desires also has strong roots in Buddhism and the good vs evil cosmogonic battle of Zoroastrianism. These views had influenced the Greek world. Plato also had a dualistic view of the universe.
The mind of Paul (as the mind of Pharisees of his time) and the mind of Paul's audience were all under these influences.
So, while Western and Eastern mindsets differ, they also have common understandings to consider.

So make up your mind are you under the law and in the flesh; or not in the flesh and out from under the law.

As I see it, the problem that Christ and Paul address is not the existence of "the flesh" as part of our human experience, but the rule of the flesh.
This is why Jesus talks about serving masters. The concept of the rule of a master also underpins the metaphor of a "ransom" paid so that the slave can be set free.
Although the law is spiritual in nature (as Paul recognizes), its commandments make us aware of how deeply enslaved we are of our desires.
External observation of the law (to live "under the law") make us realize how unfree we are but is unable to make us realize how free we can become.

You seem to chose the Law because you are a westerner. I chose to study how the easterners wrote so I know what they MEAN. Here's another eastern scripture that most westerners get wrong. John is writing to his congregation and telling them I'm writing this so you may not sin. So what is your interpretation of 1 John 1:8?

See if you can find the key word in 1 John 2, then go back and read chapter 1 again and continue discerning the key word and see if you can see what he MEANS.

Please see my next post

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

... Here's another eastern scripture that most westerners get wrong. John is writing to his congregation and telling them I'm writing this so you may not sin. So what is your interpretation of 1 John 1:8?

See if you can find the key word in 1 John 2, then go back and read chapter 1 again and continue discerning the key word and see if you can see what he MEANS.

Thank you for the exercise. I want to learn from you.
I am not sure of my answer. This is a try:

Knowing God (and love, as an evidence of "knowing God") is the key concept in 1 John 2.
This is not a theoretical knowledge but a daily experience, a fellowship. The first chapter of 1 John (v.3) , in the translation I'm consulting, renders κοινωνίαν as "fellowship with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ".

A person who is in fellowship with God can sin from time to time, but does not sin as part of his new lifestyle. He is not a slave of sin anymore.
Let's remember than in the Bible, "sinner" is used in two different ways:

1. The theological, by which we all have proven ability to sin. Since we all share this condition, it unifies humanity in its permanent need of God. The concept is the antidote against arrogance and division on the basis of self-righteousness.
2. The behavioral, in which sinners are the wicked. Not all sinners are wicked. The Bible constantly mentions the righteous in opposition to the wicked. The wicked are punished, while the righteous are rewarded. In this meaning, a person who is born again is not a "sinner" although he can "sin". The concept is the antidote against arrogance and division on the basis of creed.

Depending of the needs of the audience and context, the inspired authors used "sin" or "sinners" in any of these two forms.

 

[Peterlag]

I believe God gave us a new nature when we are born again and that this is what the apostle Paul taught. Then where did this idea come from that we are still sinners by nature, and that the spirit of Christ makes our flesh spiritual, but still alive to sin whereby we must with much effort, frustration, and failure be in a battle with our sin nature the rest of our lives? Who taught us that it's not the spirit that has become our new nature, but that after we received Christ within, we still have the old sin nature left as we live the rest of our lives trying to restrain it? If the apostle Paul taught that we do experience a death to our old sin nature once we are baptized into Christ, and that it’s dead and gone and therefore we are dead to sin? Then where did this idea come from that we are still alive to sin? Could it have come from these guys...

The concept of the original sin was first alluded to in the second century by Irenaeus, (Bishop of Lyon) who was working for the Catholics and not for the apostle Paul. Some two hundred years later another church father who went by the name of Augustine, (Bishop of Hippo)whose writings shaped and developed the doctrine of sin as he considered that humanity shared in Adam's sin. Augustine's formulation of the original sin after the year of 412 was popular among protestant reformers such as Martin Luther and John Calvin, who equated the original sin with a hurtful desire meaning that it persisted even after baptism and therefore completely destroyed the freedom to do good. At first Augustine, said that free will was weakened, but not destroyed by the original sin. But after the year of 412 this concept changed to a loss of free will except to sin, and it's this Augustine's concept that influenced the development of the western church and western philosophy and indirectly all of western Christianity.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

I believe God gave us a new nature when we are born again and that this is what the apostle Paul taught. Then where did this idea come from that we are still sinners by nature, and that the spirit of Christ makes our flesh spiritual, but still alive to sin whereby we must with much effort, frustration, and failure be in a battle with our sin nature the rest of our lives?

Hi, Peterlag

Well, it is not only an idea, but an observation of reality.
You are born again, and yet you may find yourself acting with arrogance, indifference to the needy, laziness, lust, etc.

The metaphor of "being born again" is very useful, because when a baby is born into a whole new life (the extra-uterine life), the baby needs to be nurtured. A baby left alone will not survive. Does God want us to remain babies, or to attain the fullness of his presence?
The new life the baby has been born to requires nutrition, love, and time.

The day you decided to follow Jesus, you started a new journey. And this is not a journey of permanent frustration, but a joyful and victorious journey. Such joy does not come from believing we are perfect, but from being led and carried by One who is Perfect.

 

[Peterlag]

Hi, Peterlag

Well, it is not only an idea, but an observation of reality.
You are born again, and yet you may find yourself acting with arrogance, indifference to the needy, laziness, lust, etc.

The metaphor of "being born again" is very useful, because when a baby is born into a whole new life (the extra-uterine life), the baby needs to be nurtured. A baby left alone will not survive. Does God want us to remain babies, or to attain the fullness of his presence?
The new life the baby has been born to requires nutrition, love, and time.

The day you decided to follow Jesus, you started a new journey. And this is not a journey of permanent frustration, but a joyful and victorious journey. Such joy does not come from believing we are perfect, but from being led and carried by One who is Perfect.

I never used the word perfect. I'm saying we undergo a miraculous exchange at the center of our being once we have the spirit of Christ. Who we were in Adam is no longer there. We become a new person because we are now a child of God who is in Christ. The key event causing this exchange is a death, burial, and resurrection with Christ. This miraculous exchange is not figurative or symbolic, but literal and actual.

The spiritual part of every Christian has literally and actually been crucified, buried, and raised with Christ. The fact that this occurs spiritually and not physically doesn’t make it any less real. So what happens to the old self that was in Adam? The old self is entirely obliterated once the spirit of Christ enters the Christian.

I know this comes as a complete shock to many of you who have been indoctrinated in the-old-nature-versus-the-new-nature theology. Most Christians have been taught to believe that after salvation, they are still the same at their core, and they live the rest of their lives trying to restrain this old nature. They believe they have two natures.

P.S. There's no learning how to walk in the spirit. The spirit already knows.

 

[civic]

I never used the word perfect. I'm saying we undergo a miraculous exchange at the center of our being once we have the spirit of Christ. Who we were in Adam is no longer there. We become a new person because we are now a child of God who is in Christ. The key event causing this exchange is a death, burial, and resurrection with Christ. This miraculous exchange is not figurative or symbolic, but literal and actual.

The spiritual part of every Christian has literally and actually been crucified, buried, and raised with Christ. The fact that this occurs spiritually and not physically doesn’t make it any less real. So what happens to the old self that was in Adam? The old self is entirely obliterated once the spirit of Christ enters the Christian.

I know this comes as a complete shock to many of you who have been indoctrinated in the-old-nature-versus-the-new-nature theology. Most Christians have been taught to believe that after salvation, they are still the same at their core, and they live the rest of their lives trying to restrain this old nature. They believe they have two natures.

P.S. There's no learning how to walk in the spirit. The spirit already knows.

walk in the spirit is something believers do it doesn't happen to them much the same was as obedience and fruit- by abiding.

 

[charismaticlady]

The antagonism between attachment to desires and detachment from desires also has strong roots in Buddhism and the good vs evil cosmogonic battle of Zoroastrianism. These views had influenced the Greek world. Plato also had a dualistic view of the universe.
The mind of Paul (as the mind of Pharisees of his time) and the mind of Paul's audience were all under these influences.
So, while Western and Eastern mindsets differ, they also have common understandings to consider.

I don't care about other religions. I only care about the true meaning of Jesus and His Apostles.

As I see it, the problem that Christ and Paul address is not the existence of "the flesh" as part of our human experience, but the rule of the flesh.
This is why Jesus talks about serving masters. The concept of the rule of a master also underpins the metaphor of a "ransom" paid so that the slave can be set free.
Although the law is spiritual in nature (as Paul recognizes), its commandments make us aware of how deeply enslaved we are of our desires.
External observation of the law (to live "under the law") make us realize how unfree we are but is unable to make us realize how free we can become.

God gave His laws as a guard for His people from the time of the Old Covenant until Jesus' New Covenant. The law was holy, but they had to keep God's laws with a sin nature pulling them down to their lowest nature. And God still expected them to obey His laws no matter what their nature was pulling them to do. If they didn't, they were killed. Numbers 15:36.

The correct answer to how much power did the blood of Jesus have is it cleansed us from all unrighteousness. Jesus does take all the lawless sins out of our nature that is called the old man. Romans 6:5-7 "For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin (all of it) might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin." The old man was our sin nature also called "the flesh" and "carnal," and we are freed from the desire to commit all lawless sin. Romans 8:9 " But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His."

Thank you for the exercise. I want to learn from you.
I am not sure of my answer. This is a try:

Knowing God (and love, as an evidence of "knowing God") is the key concept in 1 John 2.
This is not a theoretical knowledge but a daily experience, a fellowship. The first chapter of 1 John (v.3) , in the translation I'm consulting, renders κοινωνίαν as "fellowship with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ".

A person who is in fellowship with God can sin from time to time, but does not sin as part of his new lifestyle. He is not a slave of sin anymore.
Let's remember than in the Bible, "sinner" is used in two different ways:

1. The theological, by which we all have proven ability to sin. Since we all share this condition, it unifies humanity in its permanent need of God. The concept is the antidote against arrogance and division on the basis of self-righteousness.
2. The behavioral, in which sinners are the wicked. Not all sinners are wicked. The Bible constantly mentions the righteous in opposition to the wicked. The wicked are punished, while the righteous are rewarded. In this meaning, a person who is born again is not a "sinner" although he can "sin". The concept is the antidote against arrogance and division on the basis of creed.

Depending of the needs of the audience and context, the inspired authors used "sin" or "sinners" in any of these two forms.

There are two different types of sin. The first are sins unto death which the Catholics rightly called "mortal" sins, which are the type of sin that Jesus immediately cleanses out of our nature. That takes us from death to eternal life. The other type of sin is called sin not unto death. Catholics call them venial sins.. Both types of sin requires us to abide in Jesus. You will see John this in John's gospel - John 15:3-4 " 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me."

Jesus is the Author and Finisher of our faith. After cleansing us from all mortal sins He then starts on the lesser sins focused around the Fruit of the Spirit. That can take the rest of your life. Abiding in Jesus is key to entering the Kingdom of God.

I'll let you scan 1 John 1 and 2 for another crack at the key word for the correct eastern understanding. Here's a hint. Remember what westerners did in Romans 7. They do the same thing to 1 John 1.

 

[charismaticlady]

walk in the spirit is something believers do it doesn't happen to them much the same was as obedience and fruit- by abiding.

How are you coming along in your abiding? I've been reading one book in the New, then one in the Old and go back and forth. The longer I do that the abiding grows to an intense desire to get back in bed and continue reading. I've been trying to get all my friends to do the same.

 

[civic]

How are you coming along in your abiding? I've been reading one book in the New, then one in the Old and go back and forth. The longer I do that the abiding grows to an intense desire to get back in bed and continue reading. I've been trying to get all my friends to do the same.

I mainly camp out in the NT these days

 

[Peterlag]

walk in the spirit is something believers do it doesn't happen to them much the same was as obedience and fruit- by abiding.

I now spend much of my time right inside the spirit as close as I can get right in their face. The Greek word menō translated "abide" often deals with being in him, which I'm very concerned about when it comes to walking in Christ, which I believe is the same as walking in the spirit. To be in him or to abide in him deals with remaining or continuing to be present. To dwell, live, and be within him to the end that we are operative in him by his divine influence and energy. My first red flag that started me looking into how to do this was when I realized it's the Catholics that teach we are sinners. They teach us to look at ourselves and our sin. I teach that we should look at Christ and to walk in his spirit.

 

[charismaticlady]

I now spend much of my time right inside the spirit as close as I can get right in their face. The Greek word menō translated "abide" often deals with being in him, which I'm very concerned about when it comes to walking in Christ, which I believe is the same as walking in the spirit. To be in him or to abide in him deals with remaining or continuing to be present. To dwell, live, and be within him to the end that we are operative in him by his divine influence and energy. My first red flag that started me looking into how to do this was when I realized it's the Catholics that teach we are sinners. They teach us to look at ourselves and our sin. I teach that we should look at Christ and to walk in his spirit.

So it was the Catholics that started the blasphemy against Christ's cleansing blood? I know the false doctrine continued into the Reformation. They need to go back to Romans 6 and read it over and over until it turns on their brain to accept the Truth!

 

[Peterlag]

So it was the Catholics that started the blasphemy against Christ's cleansing blood? I know the false doctrine continued into the Reformation. They need to go back to Romans 6 and read it over and over until it turns on their brain to accept the Truth!

There is just no way anyone could handle Romans 6 so everyone changes it. My teachers said there's a difference between sin and sins. And everyone today added the continue word that makes no sense. We are either as righteous as God in Christ or we are not. There's no such thing as almost as we continue to have a little bit.

 

[charismaticlady]

There is just no way anyone could handle Romans 6 so everyone changes it. My teachers said there's a difference between sin and sins. And everyone today added the continue word that makes no sense. We are either as righteous as God in Christ or we are not. There's no such thing as almost as we continue to have a little bit.

Seeing as Jesus is the Author and Finisher of our faith, all we have to do is obey our conscience where He writes the laws. Just don't do anything against your own conscience. That seems to be what Paul did. Jesus keeps putting finishing touches on us as He writes more things on our conscience as we abide in Him. We mature in all the fruit of the Spirit one after the other. I recall finding myself not doing things I used to do without me even trying. The maturity in that area was not me straining, it was all Jesus.