Why we naturally HATE penal substitution

[Diserner]

• Where was the savage beating in Exodus 12 needed to 'atone' with a proper WRATH? They should be eating shredded lamb! With the blood splattered EVERYWHERE.

Very poor argument here. God does not do anything that goes beyond the pertinent symbolism, he is not unnecessarily cruel.

We have death, we have being burned up, we have the blood spattered, this is not 1 to 1 with Jesus, but representative.

 

[atpollard]

We have death,

Yes, death was REQUIRED (wrath is never even suggested against the Lamb or Israel in the Passover).

we have being burned up,

'Burned up' is not the primary function of the lamb. The MOST IMPORTANT point is that the BLOOD must cover and protect God's people (the blood of the lamb marks them). The SECOND point is that the people are expected to eat all of the lamb ... the Lamb of God covers with His blood and nourishes us from the inside. Burning what remains simply removes what is HOLY from access by an undeserving word (as Jesus was removed when His work on earth was finished).

we have the blood spattered,

Not 'splattered' in any sense. Painted on the doorposts and lintels ... the gate, the covering, the marker where the Law will one day go. No one enters or leaves except through the BLOOD of the LAMB. That is not "wrath", that is GRACE!

this is not 1 to 1 with Jesus, but representative.

Yes, it is. Representative of Jesus the life giving savior, not Jesus the wrath absorbing sufferer.

 

[brightfame52]

In Ps 89:38 a Messianic Psalm could it be that God was wroth with Christ ?

35 Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David.

36 His seed shall endure for ever, and his throne as the sun before me.

37 It shall be established for ever as the moon, and as a faithful witness in heaven. Selah.

38 But thou hast cast off and abhorred, thou hast been wroth with thine anointed.

 

[civic]

In Ps 89:38 a Messianic Psalm could it be that God was wroth with Christ ?

35 Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David.

36 His seed shall endure for ever, and his throne as the sun before me.

37 It shall be established for ever as the moon, and as a faithful witness in heaven. Selah.

38 But thou hast cast off and abhorred, thou hast been wroth with thine anointed.

Another verse ripped from its context and misapplied.

Psalm 89
I will sing of the Lord’s great love forever;
with my mouth I will make your faithfulness known
through all generations.
2;I will declare that your love stands firm forever,
that you have established your faithfulness in heaven itself.
3 You said, “I have made a covenant with my chosen one,
I have sworn to David my servant,
4;‘I will establish your line forever
and make your throne firm through all generations.

And David did not write this Psalm, Ethan is the author.Its the time of Absalom, when David was driven from his throne and his kingdom;

But thou hast cast off - literally, Thou hast treated as a foul, offensive thing; thou hast treated him to whom these promises were made, as if he were a vile and detestable object - as that which one throws away because it is worthless or offensive.
And abhorred - Hast despised; that is, as if it were an object of aversion or contempt. Compare Psalm 60:1, Psalm 60:10.

Thou hast been wroth - literally, "Thou hast suffered (thine anger) to overflow," or to pour itself forth. See Psalm 78:21, Psalm 78:59.

With thine anointed - With him who had been anointed as king - anointed as thine own - to administer justice, and to rule for thee. 1 Samuel 16:1, 1 Samuel 16:13. This might seem to refer to the time of Absalom, when David was driven from his throne and his kingdom; see, however, the Introduction to the Psalm.Barnes

hope this helps !!!

 

[brightfame52]

Another verse ripped from its context and misapplied.

John Gill on that verse:

thou hast been wroth with thine Anointed; with thy Messiah; not Rehoboam, from whom the ten tribes were rent; nor Josiah, who was killed by Pharaohnecho; nor Zedekiah, carried captive into Babylon; but the true Messiah, the son of David, before said to be found by the Lord, and anointed with his holy oil, Psalm 89:20, which is to be understood of him, not as his own son, who was always the object of his love, but as the sinner's surety, bearing the sins of his people, and all the wrath and punishment due unto them; and so is reconcilable to the promise, that lovingkindness should not be taken from him, Psalm 89:33 and is no objection to it, though made one. https://biblehub.com/commentaries/psalms/89-38.htm

 

[civic]

John Gill on that verse:

John Gill is not inspired he is just a man

 

[brightfame52]

John Gill is not inspired he is just a man

So r u

 

[Kampioen]

Okay

Yeah He took the guilt by imputation, that's what made it punishment, you dont punish the guiltless or innocent, He became guilty by imputation and substation, if not God would not have let Him take the bullet. And all this was for Gods elect and not mankind in general


No He wasnt mad at Christ, He Loved Him

So you are saying the divine person ie Jesus became guilty by imputation?

 

[Diserner]

Jesus paying the price for our sin on the Cross should not even be an issue in Christianity.

This is apostasy—all you have left when you reject an Atonement is a moralistic deity.

 

[brightfame52]

So you are saying the divine person ie Jesus became guilty by imputation?

I said what I said, cant u read ?

 

[Diserner]

I said what I said, cant u read ?

That's a very fair point, lol.