brightfame52
Active Member
You dont believe the verses, dont get sanctimonious on me
Why we naturally HATE penal substitution
- Thread starter Diserner
- Start date
atpollard
Active Member
No, just a lot of advanced math and Physics about space-time (the interaction of matter-energy-velocity-time).
atpollard
Active Member
That is why a "Sola Scriptura" Baptist like me had to reject a perfectly good PSA Theory when I tried to prove that the bible really DID teach that and went looking for the verses myself. They are not there. One verse in Isaiah comes close, but a LOT of verses teach exactly the opposite so it was hard to throw out many clear verses because of one "maybe" verse.
Jesus saves. The Father was never angry at the Son.
brightfame52
Active Member
Yeah right
brightfame52
Active Member
Nobody said He was angry with the Son, where that come from ? I have stated many times, His wrath was Justice against sin imputed to the Son. When the authorities execute a criminal for wrong doing, it doesnt mean they are personally angry with the person. I have given the similitude with Rom 13 and human govt punishing evil doers, its called wrath Rom 13:1-4
Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
Now this doesnt mean the higher powers are angry with the person or persons, there wrath is a matter of justice !
atpollard
Active Member
Really??? You have never heard a sermon about the anger of the Father poured out on Jesus? About the terrible suffering that was inflicted on Jesus being God’s anger at our sin and the punishment that should have fallen on us?
How curious.
I could post dozens of sermons by GIANTS of the faith (but what would be the point).
atpollard
Active Member
Yeah, right!
brightfame52
Active Member
Yeah some may say that, but Im being exact , there is a wrath of God against sin and perhaps against the Son as the sins, wrong doing of the elect were charged, imputed to Him, but that doesnt denote a personal anger against the person of the Son, in Fact the Father Loved the Son during that time. Yet because the Father has to avenge sin, just vengeance was executed upon the Son. Now the non elect, God never loved them, and He hated them, but never did He hate the Son nor His chosen heritage in Him.
civic
Active Member
Ditto
Justice is served because the penalty that sinners deserved was actually carried out, and Jesus voluntarily stood between them and God and took the bullet of punishment aimed at sinners but not guilt. God was never mad at Jesus.
Diserner
Active Member
Part of the punishment of sin is necessarily God's anger. You cannot separate those two things.
However, there is some nuance here, and many speak with imprecision. Obviously God is not angry with Jesus' willingness to substitute himself for sinners in experiencing God's anger—that is, there is an overarching recognition and willingness to what is happening. When we read YHWH was pleased to crush him, one might set those at opposition. What we can say is that, the punishment of sin Jesus experienced was 1) temporary, 2) voluntary and 3) submitted to a higher goal (for a brief moment, I have forsaken you, as Scripture says). It gets a little complex here and even many who strongly preach substitutionary atonement get a little confused at times, and even Calvin used double speak concerning this. Because it is similar to the issue of does God love the lost, where there is a sense in which God both hates and loves the lost simultaneously, in different ways. God loves them in that he wants them to be saved, God hates them in that they embrace a lifestyle of sin. So when Jesus is experiencing our punishment, this does not mean that God is displeased with what he is doing, but rather that Jesus is experiencing displeasure on our behalf because this pleases God. Two different senses and aspects of displeasure there.
However, there is some nuance here, and many speak with imprecision. Obviously God is not angry with Jesus' willingness to substitute himself for sinners in experiencing God's anger—that is, there is an overarching recognition and willingness to what is happening. When we read YHWH was pleased to crush him, one might set those at opposition. What we can say is that, the punishment of sin Jesus experienced was 1) temporary, 2) voluntary and 3) submitted to a higher goal (for a brief moment, I have forsaken you, as Scripture says). It gets a little complex here and even many who strongly preach substitutionary atonement get a little confused at times, and even Calvin used double speak concerning this. Because it is similar to the issue of does God love the lost, where there is a sense in which God both hates and loves the lost simultaneously, in different ways. God loves them in that he wants them to be saved, God hates them in that they embrace a lifestyle of sin. So when Jesus is experiencing our punishment, this does not mean that God is displeased with what he is doing, but rather that Jesus is experiencing displeasure on our behalf because this pleases God. Two different senses and aspects of displeasure there.
civic
Active Member
If you get the time I would appreciate if you take a look at the finished study. I have one simple ask. Like any other book try to see it through the authors lens first. Then critically afterwards.
brightfame52
Active Member
Okay
Yeah He took the guilt by imputation, that's what made it punishment, you dont punish the guiltless or innocent, He became guilty by imputation and substation, if not God would not have let Him take the bullet. And all this was for Gods elect and not mankind in general
No He wasnt mad at Christ, He Loved Him
civic
Active Member
PSA the greatest INJUSTICE is all of HisStory.
PSA basically teaches that God doesn’t save us from sin or from death. But instead God saves us from himself. And he does in by punishing himself since Jesus is God. There is no justice in PSA for the guilty was not punished, but the innocent. That by definition is injustice. PSA is a theological pretzel, a mess.
Those who believe in the heretical doctrine of PSA do not understand the Tri-Unity of God. No matter how much they will deny that fact its true. PSA teaches a fracture Trinity, a separation of the Godhead. A Dis-Unity of the Father, Son, Holy Spirit. An angry gos pouring out his vengeance, anger, retribution on his own son- that is pure paganism, greek philosophy, idolatry, gnosticism at its very core. It is anti god, anti-christ, anti-biblical, anti-christian. PSA is a theological stronghold.
Correcting the errors of PSA from a biblical POV.
Nowhere does God say His Son was guilty of anything on the cross or that justice was served or demanded by the Father towards the Son. The same goes with wrath. Its not found in Scripture but in the teachings of men.
Gods justice is served via the faithfulness of Christ ( Romans 1:16-17, Romans 3:21-22. ) Romans 5:1- Because we have been justified out of the faith/faithfulness, we have peace with God.
God has made us right/just by the faithfulness of Christ, by which we have peace with God through Jesus Christ. God has done this apart from the law. Romans 3:21. Gods "justice " is served by the faithfulness of Christ. Jesus is the righteous servant, the one who brings forth justice to the nations. Isaiah 42:1-4. He is the covenant, the new covenant Romans 10:4, Hebrews 8-9, the one whom the law is fulfilled and the one who reveals Gods righteousness/the just one for the nations both Jew and Gentile.
The gospel is the power of God unto salvation. For it reveals the justice of God from faith to faith- Romans 1:16-17. Gods love, grace, mercy and redemption are at the center of the cross.
The cross if anything was injustice. The murder of the innocent is injustice in any court of law. He was tried on false charges by false witnessses, convicted without evidence and murdered without due process of the law. They killed Him, not God. His life was taken unlawfully and injustice was served. The very ones He came to save murdered Him. Those who commit murder as the law of God states must die, but Jesus murderers lived. Thats injustice. The entire penal aspect of the atonement is a farce.
If the killing of Jesus was a "righteous" act that pleased God then why would those who murdered Him need forgiveness ? The fact is a crime was committed by those who killed Jesus and were guilty for His death. There was no justice but injustice in His death. I will be adding more of this to my paper on the Nature of God in the Atonement exposing more false teachings of PSA.
This is exactly what it say in Isaiah 53- we considered Him smitten, not God. Its the people who put Him on trial and killed Him. His cross was a crime uf unjust punishment. There is no law of retribution in the atonement that is what PSA advocates would have us believe. The cross is about REDEMPTION not retribution.
James 2:13- For judgment is without mercy to one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment.
Romans 3:25- God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement( mercy seat, expiation) through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished
Gods justice leads to mercy which results in forgiveness. Jesus atonement for our sins is an act of God showing His grace, mercy, love, forgiveness and redemption via His Son. The Just ( Jesus ) for the unjust ( us sinners ).
The purpose of the Incarnation is that the Eternal Son identifies with us in our humanity, becomes sin for us, bears our sins, destroys sin and the devil and his works, and restores/reconciles us with God as our substitute. The atonement has nothing to do with wrath and retribution, but forgiveness and restoration. The Son diverts wrath, it is passed over since He is the Passover. Gods wrath falls upon the sinner, the unbeliever, the unfaithful, the reprobate, wicked- never on the innocent, the faithful, believers, saints, etc.....
hope this helps !!!
brightfame52
Active Member
I dont know what in the world you talking about
civic
Active Member
Try rereading it as it’s self explanatory
brightfame52
Active Member
It started off in error as far as Im concerned, and I have already read your postings b4, nothing has changed
we are talking a death sentence case , which would require either the guilty to be put to death for their crime, or else someone take their place
civic
Active Member
the death sentence was from man, the executioners who killed Jesus, murdered Him the most unjust act in human history.
atpollard
Active Member
Jesus didn't fix that ... people still die.
- Both of my grandfathers died.
- Both of my grandmothers died.
- Aunts and Uncles have died.
- My mother died.
- Two younger brother's died.
- My infant son died.
Eventually, our daughter will join us.
Jesus just changed what happens NEXT ... after death.
This isn't the movie "Cocoon" where "We won't grow any older and we won't ever die." because Jesus died instead of us.
Jesus died leading the way, so we would not have to fear death.
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