Why we naturally HATE penal substitution

[atpollard]

By becoming the sin bearer, jesus agreed to receive from the father all the wrath due to us as lost sinners

"Receive it" or do what was necessarily to "remove it" (by restoring the broken relationship)?
Did the "Passover Lamb" in the story of Exodus receive anyone's "wrath" or did it just pay the price needed to cover the firstborn from the curse and coming (future) judgement?

Those are the questions that I ponder.

 

[brightfame52]

"Receive it" or do what was necessarily to "remove it" (by restoring the broken relationship)?

Both

 

[civic]

By becoming the sin bearer, jesus agreed to receive from the father all the wrath due to us as lost sinners

No wrath from Father to Son ever mentioned in the Bible , that’s a man made doctrine

 

[brightfame52]

No wrath from Father to Son ever mentioned in the Bible , that’s a man made doctrine

Yes its Justice, for the penalty of sin. You dont believe Jesus died for the sin penalty of the elect ? Those for whom He didn't die are under Gods wrath and shall never see life Jn 3:36

36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

 

[civic]

Yes its Justice, for the penalty of sin. You dont believe Jesus died for the sin penalty of the elect ? Those for whom He didn't die are under Gods wrath and shall never see life Jn 3:36

36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Nothing about “ justice “ in that passage.

 

[brightfame52]

Nothing about “ justice “ in that passage.

It dont have to be, it just needs to be in scripture.

 

[atpollard]

Both

Jesus was the "Lamb of God" [John 1:29, John 1:36] who died on "Passover" [Matthew 26:2] with his broken body "given for you" [Luke 22:19] and his blood of the covenant "poured out for the forgiveness of sins" [Matthew 26:28].

• So what of the lesson of the FIRST Passover Lamb [Exodus 12:3] that was to be "slaughtered" [Exodus 12:6] and its blood placed on the doorposts and lintel [Exodus 12:7] and the whole lamb "quickly eaten" with "unleavened bread and bitter herbs" [Exodus 12:8]. "It is the LORDS PASSOVER" as He will go through and pass judgement (kill the firstborn). [Exodus 12:11-12] Except where the blood serves as a sign that JUDGEMENT should pass over that house [Exodus 12:13].
• There was no WRATH (anger/punishment) towards the Passover lamb. There was a necessary death and an act of faith and a blood that covers those who stood condemned to death. There was a future judgement (death of the first born) that was yet to come and which passed over those covered by the blood. That was the lesson in Exodus for the greater redemption of the LAMB OF GOD in the Gospels. It was never about WRATH, and it was always about SALVATION. Wrath was always for God's enemies and Grace was always for God's children.

 

[brightfame52]

Jesus was the "Lamb of God" [John 1:29, John 1:36] who died on "Passover" [Matthew 26:2] with his broken body "given for you" [Luke 22:19] and his blood of the covenant "poured out for the forgiveness of sins" [Matthew 26:28].

Okay

There was no WRATH (anger/punishment) towards the Passover lamb.

Justice, Substitutionary, penal Even the Israelites deserved to die because they were just as much sinners as the Egyptians. Also Gods anger and wrath against sin is righteous, you guys humanize wrath and anger from God as if its the same from us sinful men. Gods wrath is Just and Holy.

 

[JesusFan]

Jesus was the "Lamb of God" [John 1:29, John 1:36] who died on "Passover" [Matthew 26:2] with his broken body "given for you" [Luke 22:19] and his blood of the covenant "poured out for the forgiveness of sins" [Matthew 26:28].

• So what of the lesson of the FIRST Passover Lamb [Exodus 12:3] that was to be "slaughtered" [Exodus 12:6] and its blood placed on the doorposts and lintel [Exodus 12:7] and the whole lamb "quickly eaten" with "unleavened bread and bitter herbs" [Exodus 12:8]. "It is the LORDS PASSOVER" as He will go through and pass judgement (kill the firstborn). [Exodus 12:11-12] Except where the blood serves as a sign that JUDGEMENT should pass over that house [Exodus 12:13].
• There was no WRATH (anger/punishment) towards the Passover lamb. There was a necessary death and an act of faith and a blood that covers those who stood condemned to death. There was a future judgement (death of the first born) that was yet to come and which passed over those covered by the blood. That was the lesson in Exodus for the greater redemption of the LAMB OF GOD in the Gospels. It was never about WRATH, and it was always about SALVATION. Wrath was always for God's enemies and Grace was always for God's children.

The wrath of God is against the wicked and the lost, its a personal wrath, that must be atoned and propiated for before the Father can even forgive any lost sinner

 

[JesusFan]

Okay

Justice, Substitutionary, penal Even the Israelites deserved to die because they were just as much sinners as the Egyptians. Also Gods anger and wrath against sin is righteous, you guys humanize wrath and anger from God as if its the same from us sinful men. Gods wrath is Just and Holy.

Holiness of God demands that the sinner atone for His sins ,which will be wrathful, so its either the lost person or the sinless lamb of God doing that

 

[civic]

The wrath of God is against the wicked and the lost, its a personal wrath, that must be atoned and propiated for before the Father can even forgive any lost sinner

That’s not found anywhere in scripture , see below for proof.

Thread 'Why did Jesus say ‘My God, My God why have you forsaken me? Did the Father forsake the Son?'

Jul 13, 2023

In this study, we will answer the question: Why did Jesus Christ say, ‘My God, why have you forsaken me?’ (Psalm 22:1). What does this statement mean—and does it imply that the Father truly forsook the Son? We will examine what this reveals about the nature of God in the atonement. This will be a developing 7-part study as I continue to expand my research.

• civic
• Replies: 493
• Forum: Penal Substitutionary Atonement

• 

 

[atpollard]

Justice, Substitutionary, penal Even the Israelites deserved to die because they were just as much sinners as the Egyptians.

True that the Israelites and the Egyptians were both sinners. In Exodus, one could even make an argument that the sins of Isreal were far worse ... they had the Patriarchs who spoke with God! They should have trusted God far more than an ignorant, pagan nation.

However, in Exodus 12, why was DEATH coming to the firstborn? Was it because "all men had sinned"? If that was the reason, they why just the firstborn? Why not kill everyone?

• No, the punishments of the plagues were coming because God had commanded His People to leave Egypt and to 1) follow and 2) worship God. Israel did not obey because Egypt refused to allow it ... so Israel was redeemed and Egypt was judged.
• This is exactly what we see in the WORLD from the First Century to today: God commands people to FOLLOW and WORSHIP God. The World seeks to prevent it. God's people (the elect) are redeemed FROM death and God's enemies (the reprobate) are delivered TO WRATH [at the day of wrath].

Also Gods anger and wrath against sin is righteous,

Yes it is. It is also STORED until the day of wrath and "poured full strength" on God's ENEMIES. Revelation is not a gentle book. God's LOVE and MERCY are just as powerful ... he was willing to be mutilated, shamed and murdered by "evil men" to provide the blood of the new covenant to restore fellowship. Wrath is for enemies and Grace is for children.

you guys humanize wrath and anger from God as if its the same from us sinful men. Gods wrath is Just and Holy.

Not really. I just refuse to say God does what God never claims to do. You cannot find WRATH of FATHER against the SON. You cannot find God advocating for a "punish the innocent". You can find where God forbids such a thing as "unjust".

 

[atpollard]

Holiness of God demands that the sinner atone for His sins ,which will be wrathful, so its either the lost person or the sinless lamb of God doing that

If your child is disobedient (did not make their bed), is physically punishing them the ONLY way that the "sin" can be atoned for? Must THEY or someone else be punished?

My question is not "Did Jesus 'atone' (make things right)?" but rather, "Was WRATH of FATHER poured on the SON the only way to 'atone' (make things right)?"

• Where was the savage beating in Exodus 12 needed to 'atone' with a proper WRATH? They should be eating shredded lamb! With the blood splattered EVERYWHERE.

 

[brightfame52]

Yes it is. It is also STORED until the day of wrath and "poured full strength" on God's ENEMIES.

No its active now. Jn 3:36

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. The word abideth, the wrath of God abideth is the greek word menō and its in the present tense, and its indicative. Its ongoing in time

 

[brightfame52]

Was WRATH of FATHER poured on the SON the only way to 'atone' (make things right)?"

Yes, He suffered the Just due penalty for the sins of the elect. Be careful b4 you start thinking like people who deny eternal punishment altogether. What is your position on that ?

 

[atpollard]

No its active now. Jn 3:36

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. The word abideth, the wrath of God abideth is the greek word menō and its in the present tense, and its indicative. Its ongoing in time

But "wrath" [G3709] in John 3:36 is not an action ... it is a "swelling with juice", an internal "building up" of "the natural disposition, temper, character; movement or agitation of soul, impulse, desire, any violent emotion,".

• But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming for baptism, he said to them, "You offspring of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath[G3709] to come? - Matthew 3:7
• "The one who believes in the Son has eternal life; but the one who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath[G3709] of God remains on him." - John 3:36
• For the wrath[G3709] of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of people who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, - Romans 1:18
• Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and restraint and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath [G3709] for yourself on the day of wrath [G3709] and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who WILL REPAY EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: to those who by perseverance in doing good seek glory, honor, and immortality, He will give eternal life; but to those who are self-serving and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, He will give wrath [G3709] and indignation. - Romans 2:4-8
• What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath[G3709] and to make His power known, endured with great patience objects of wrath[G3709] prepared for destruction? - Romans 9:22
• and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is, Jesus who rescues us from the wrath[G3709] to come. - 1 Thessalonians 1:10
• For God has not destined us for wrath[G3709], but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, - 1 Thessalonians 5:9

None are active current punishment, are they?

 

[atpollard]

What is your position on that ?

"Eternal" holds no meaning in a state of existence that does not include space-time as the universe that we exist in "now" does. "Eternal" punishment is as limitless as "Eternal" life ... it is "time" that will not exist as we now know it.

The exact biblical phrase is "age long" which is a good term ... it lasts as long as God chooses for the "age" to last (but both heaven and hell seem to last for the same "age long").

 

[atpollard]

Yes, He suffered the Just due penalty for the sins of the elect.

Verse that teaches that, please (otherwise it is eisegesis).

 

[brightfame52]

But "wrath" [G3709] in John 3:36 is not an action

They are under Gods wrath, present tense, and God is active

 

[brightfame52]

. it lasts as long as God chooses for the "age"

Yeah you been affected with some type of universalism, I thought so