Why we naturally HATE penal substitution

[GodsGrace]

You have not responded to the verses I posted. You posting a bunch of verses does not solve the contradiction.

Most of these verses you gave I already shows you how you are taking them out of context. Yet you have failed to even respond to any of the verses i gave.

Oh. Excuse please.

§Which of my verses did you explain away?

I'll pick two...and then you pick two of yours and we'll discuss.


1 Thessalonians 4:1-3
1 Finally then, brethren, we request and exhort you in the Lord Jesus, that as you received from us instruction as to how you ought to walk and please God (just as you actually do walk ), that you excel still more.
2 For you know what commandments we gave you by the authority of the Lord Jesus.
3 For this is the will of God, your sanctification;

(we become sanctified by obeying God...just as Abraham did).

Hebrews 13:6
6Do not neglect to do good and to share what you have,


(we are told to do good throughout the NT).

 

[GodsGrace]

You mean you refuse to go through all my verses?

God said in every one of those verses to trust him only

All the verses I gave said faith and nothing else

If you refuse to go through them and show me where I am wrong. Then we are done.. You can live in your shame.

I live in MY shame?
I'm not the one calling good works for God filthy bloody rags.

Please post two of your verses.

 

[GodsGrace]

Thats not the question James asked

He asked “If someone claimed to have faith. And does not have works. Can THEY faith save them

I guess in your view. Yes, it can


Yet here we are with the same argument


See. You did the very thing you keep doing

Your trying to make James 2 contradict Pauls letters..

Yet here you are defending a grace plus works justification.

lol. I offered it many times.

But hey

I gave these verses to @GodsGrace she would not respond. Maybe you will?

Show me works in any of these gospel passages.

then paul is a liar
Jesus is a liar

I might as well throw my bible out. I can nto trust it.

John 1: 12. But AS MANY AS HAVE RECIEVED HIM, to THEM he gave the right to become children, even TO THEM WHO BELIEVE (no works)

John 3, FOR God so loved the world he gave his only son that WHOEVER BELIEVES (trusts) in him will NEVER PERISH, and LIVE FOREVER (eternal life) for the son was not sent to judge, but that the world might be saved, he who BELIEVES is NOT CONDEMNED, he who does not believe is condemned already (no works)

John 4: 13 Jesus answered and said to her, “Whoever drinks of this water will thirst again, 14 but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will NEVER THIRST. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into EVERLASTING LIFE” (no works)

John 5: 24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he whoever HEARS MY WORD and BELIEVES IN HIM WHO SENT ME who sent Me HAS ETERNAL LIFE and SHALL NOT COME INTO JUDGMENT but HAS PASSED FROM DEATH TO LIFE (No works)

John 6: 35 And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. HE WHO COMES TO ME shall NEVER HUNGER and he who BELIEVES IN ME shall NEVER THIRST (NO WORKS)

John 6: 37: and THE ONE WHO COMES TO ME I WILL BY NO MEANS CAST OUT 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, thatof all He has given Me I SHAL LOSE NOTHING, but SHOULD RAISE IT UP ON THE LAST DAY. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that EVERYONE WHO SEES AND BELIEVES IN HIM MAY HAVE EVERLASTING LIFE AND I WILL (NOT MIGHT) RAISE HIM ON THE LAST DAY (NO WORKS)

John 6: 47 Most assuredly, I say to you, HE WHO BELIEVES IN ME HAS EVERLASTING LIFE. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and are dead. 50 This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that THAT ONE MAY EAT OF IT AND NOT DIE 51 am the living bread which came down from heaven. IF ANYONE EATS THIS BREAD HE WILL LIVE FOREVER (NO WORKS)

John 6: 63 It is the SPIRIT WHO GIVES LIFE ; the flesh profits nothing. THE WORDS THAT I SPEAK to you ARE SPIRIT AND THEY ARE LIFE (SIGNIFYING THE BREAD FROM HEAVEN, THE FLESH AND BOOD ARE THE WORDS JESUS SPOKE. NOT THE PHYSICAL FOOD OR WORKS,)

EPH 1: 13 In Him YOU ALSO TRUSTED , after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also ,HAVING BELIEVED YOU WERE SEALED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT OF PROMISE 14 who IS THE GAURANTEE OF OUR INHERITANCE until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

THE INHERITANCE HE SAID WE ALREADY HAD IN THE 1ST 12 VERSES. (AGAIN, NO WORKS)

eph 2: 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses,MADE US ALIVE together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and RAISED US UP TOGETHER , and MADE US SIT TOGETHER IN HEAVENLY PLACES 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For BY GRACE YOU HAVE BEEN SAVED (A COMPLETED ACTION) THROUGH FAITH , (AS MANY AS HAVE RECIEVED) and that NOT OF YOURSELVES ; it IS THE GIFT OF GOD, 9 NOT OF WORKS LEST ANYONE SHOULD BOAST (NO WORKS)

rom 4: 3 For what does the Scripture say? “ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD AND HE ACOUNTED IT TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.” 4 Now TO HIM WHO WORKS, THE WAGES ARE NOT COUNTED AS GRACE BUT DEBT (Works cancels out grace. and makes it a wage) 5 But TO HIM WHO DOES NOT WORK but BELIEVES ON HIM WHO JUSTIFIES THE UNGOLDY , his HIS FAITH IS ACCOUNTED FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS (AGAIN NO WORKS. PERIOD)

rom 4: 16 Therefore IT IF OF FAITH THAT IT MAY BE ACCORDING TO GRACE , so that THE PROMISE MAY BE SURE TO ALL THE SEED not only to those who are of the law, but also TO THOSE WHO ARE OF THE FAITH OF ABRAHAM , who is the father of us all (AGAIN, NO WORKS, IT IS OF GRACE THROUGH FAITH)

Rom 4: 23 Now it was not written for his sake alone that it was imputed to him, 24 but ALSO FOR US, IT SHALL BE IMPUTED TO US WHO BELIEVE IN HIM WHO RAISED UP JESUS OUR LORD FROM THE DEAD , 25 who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was RAISED BECAUSE OF OUR JUSTIFICATION (AGAIN NO WORKS)

Rom 11: 6 And IF BY GRACE, THAN IT IS NO LONGER OF WORKS, ; otherwise GRACE IS NO LONGER GRACE.But IF IT IS OF WORKS, THEN IT IS NO LONGER OF GRACE. OTHERWISE WORK IS NO LONGER WORK (AS i HAVE SAID NUMEROUS TIME, GRACE + WORKS = WORKS.. GRACE AND WORKS CAN NOT MIX IN THE AREA OF SALVATION. ITS LIKE MIXING OIL AND WATER)

2 Tim 1: 9 who HAS SAVED US (A COMPLETED ACTION) and called us with a holy calling, NOT ACCORDING TO OUR WORKS , but ACCORDING TO HIS OWN PURPOSE AND GRACE which was GIVEN TO US in Christ Jesus BEFORE TIME BEGAN (AGAIN, NO WORKS. BUT GRACE)

Titus 3: 4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, 5 NOT BY WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS (GOOD DEEDS) WHICH WE HAVE DONE , but ACCORDING TO HIS MERCY HE SAVED USthrough the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that HAVING BEEN JUSTIFIED BY HIS GRACE we should become HEIRS ACCORDING TO THE HOPE OF ETERNAL LIFE
(AGAIN, NO QUESTION HERE. PAUL LEAVES NO QUESTION. NO GOOD DEED CAN SAVE US,. WE ARE SAVED BY GODS MERCY, AND GIVEN THE HOPE OF ETERNAL LIFE. WHICH IS PROMISED BEFORE TIME BEGAN

Titus 1: 2 in HOPE OF ETERNAL LIFE which GOD WHO CAN NOT LIE PROMISED BEFORE TIME BEGAN

this is what our faith is in, the grace and mercy of God. not our deeds.

I am not rewriting, I am forcing the word to form my belief system, not using my belief system to interpret the word.

THE FAITH points back to the faith. THEM are those who claimed to have faith.

Not the rest of the world.

No,Paul is talking about good works..

I don't see ONE verse up there that states that we are saved by FAITH ALONE.

And why?
Because FAITH ALONE is not sufficient for salvation.

Faith must bring about the obedience that is caused by faith.
Obedience includes good works.

Good works cannot be separated from obedience.

Obedience cannot be separated from faith.

The one BIG problem with all you verses is that they say we must believe.

For the 100th time:
What does BELIEVE mean in the original Greek?

Does it mean to believe with the mind?

 

[Dizerner]

Nobody does a perfect or worthy work, but that does not logically mean God cannot require us to allow grace to work some measure of sanctification in our lives.

It is, admittedly, all too easy to trust too much in our own goodness and behavior, but this is not by any means, an excuse to simply write off all requirements upon us.

The abdication of all responsibility is not, and never will be, what grace really means.

 

[GodsGrace]

@GodsGrace I have given you the courtesy numerous times of responding to many verses you have given and giving a different view.

When you are ready to do this with all the verses I gave, maybe we can start to have a discussion

Running away from those verses do not help

And you taking all these verses out of context will not help you either. I can not interpret them the way you do. Because if I do I insert a major contradiction to the word of God

I refuse to do that

Here I will help you

I gave eph 2: 8-9 that shows we are saved ( a completed action) By grace..and that this grace is applied through faith, and not of ourselves it is the gift of God. Not of works lest anyone should boast.

You gave eph 2: 10 for we are his workmanship created in christ jesus for good works..

Now. Paul is not an author of confusion.He did not say we are saved ( a completed action) by grace and not work, then contradict himself and say we must do works to be saved.

You must resolve that contradiction.

Or I will continue to interpret as written

We are saved by Grace (a completed action) through faith (God will nto force it on ue) and not of ourselves it (salvation) is the gift of God, not of works lest we should boast

For we (those saved already) are his workmanship. Created in christ Jesus for good works. That we should walk in them, because we are saved, not to get saved.

Which fits 100% into my belief system

HOW does Eph 2:10 fit your belief system?

It clearly states that we are saved FOR works.
To DO good works.

What if a person states clearly that good works are not necessary?
They state that we don't even need to obey!

How is that mode of thinking going to save them if they're being disobedient to God?

The problem here is that you keep posting verses about BELIEVING but you refuse to explain what the word REFUSE means.

This is all-important ....
believe means to follow....among other definitions.

What does it mean to follow Jesus?

Matthew 16:24
24 Then Jesus said to His disciples, "If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me.

How does a person follow Jesus?
He states how a few verses down...

Matthew 16:27
27 "For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and WILL THEN REPAY EVERY MAN ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS.


NOWHERE in the NT does Jesus say to JUST believe in Him and we will be saved.
He taught good works...He taught good behavior....
THIS is what He taught His Apostles and why they wrote about it in the NT.


Jesus exhorted His followers to obey Him and to DO as He instructed.
THIS is what Christianity must teach.

As I've said many times,,,a relationship is two-sided or it will not work.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Nope, no blasphemy intended or actual. If Jesus had supernatural wisdom, strength, stature, or interpersonal skills as an infant, He couldn't/wouldn't have GROWN in them. Yet we are told that He did grow in all these things.

Funny...... It is literally crazy to me to think like you're thinking.....

Lets observe the obvious..... At least it is obvious to me....

Do you have two minds? Do you have the mind of Christ?

The mind of Christ in the incarnation was both Divine and human. In the context of the human mind, it was nothing more than a limiting factor relative to the flesh. His Divine Mind was never diminished.

You had supernatural knowledge confined in a body that was limited in expression through the flesh. The weaknesses and limitation of flesh. He became like us to know us in these limitation. That was His priestly ministry..... for us.

You people think I want to "soil" the Character of Christ but you don't understand how this works. You're wrong in so many areas of your theology that you can't see this for what it is......

The infinite nature of Christ wrapped in death from the very moment of His conception in the womb of Mary. Limited in expression but never in mind.

So let me ask you.....

How powerful are you in your mind?

 

[praise_yeshua]

Nobody does a perfect or worthy work, but that does not logically mean God cannot require us to allow grace to work some measure of sanctification in our lives.

It is, admittedly, all too easy to trust too much in our own goodness and behavior, but this is not by any means, an excuse to simply write off all requirements upon us.

The abdication of all responsibility is not, and never will be, what grace really means.

Requirements for the proud.......

Grace affords all of humanity the tangible reality of being wrong yet of infinite worth in the benevolence of God.

I've tried to tell you and you just refuse to accept it......

You see value to your sin to the point of requiring from God unneeded suffering for your sin. That isn't a proper view of Grace. Grace doesn't require such.

The Atonement for mankind is what establishes damnation. It isn't "sin" that damns. If the refusal of humanity to accept the Grace of God in Jesus Christ. That is Justice. That God might be Just and the Justifier of those in Christ Jesus.

18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.
30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

 

[Dizerner]

Grace affords all of humanity to tangible reality of being wrong yet of infinite worth in the benevolence of God.

You mean like Universalism?

No, we must trust in the Work of the Cross as the means of our salvation.

God fixes things at the Cross.

 

[Doug Brents]

Funny...... It is literally crazy to me to think like you're thinking.....

Lets observe the obvious..... At least it is obvious to me....

Do you have two minds? Do you have the mind of Christ?

The mind of Christ in the incarnation was both Divine and human. In the context of the human mind, it was nothing more than a limiting factor relative to the flesh. His Divine Mind was never diminished.

You had supernatural knowledge confined in a body that was limited in expression through the flesh. The weaknesses and limitation of flesh. He became like us to know us in these limitation. That was His priestly ministry..... for us.

You people think I want to "soil" the Character of Christ but you don't understand how this works. You're wrong in so many areas of your theology that you can't see this for what it is......

The infinite nature of Christ wrapped in death from the very moment of His conception in the womb of Mary. Limited in expression but never in mind.

So let me ask you.....

How powerful are you in your mind?

So it really doesn't matter to you what Scripture says? What matters to you is what you think?
Scripture says that Jesus' ministry began with His baptism by John in Jordan. But you don't care about that; you only care that you think His ministry started when He was conceived, because at that point He was already King and High Priest. Just because He was born King and High Priest (which He was) doesn't mean that His ministry began at His conception.

Jesus "emptied Himself". Of what, and how much, He emptied Himself we are not told. But we are told that He emptied Himself and became a little lower than the angels, a servant, and an ordinary human man. He had in Himself only what an ordinary human man is capable of, and all of His supernatural actions were empowered by the Holy Spirit, just as the Apostles were, and we can be. He did not have supernatural knowledge through His own power, or He would have been able to know when He would return. But only the Father knew that.

 

[praise_yeshua]

You mean like Universalism?

No, we must trust in the Work of the Cross as the means of our salvation.

God fixes things at the Cross.

I can see where you might think that.... but... No. I don't believe in Universalism.

However, I construct what I believe very differently from how you construct it. My "house" is different on the inside.

It is the work of Christ at the Cross and Resurrection that both frees and damns humanity. Grace forgives without any context of acceptance. God forgive this world in Christ. The very Epitome of Grace.

18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

 

[AaronH]

FWIW I find massive, machine gunned lists of proof texts to be at best neutral and perhaps sometimes even counterproductive to a discussion.

Remember, we all bring preexisting notions to the table with us (to deny such is folly). I may see something in a verse that the other does not, or I might not see something in a verse that the other does. Multiplying this 15x or 20x may create a list that is intended to seem impressive but doesn't really move the needle.

IMO, better for someone to choose 1, 2 or maybe 3 of the verses thought to most clearly support ones' case and interact with those on a bit deeper level.

 

[civic]

King David didn’t seem worried at all about having no atonement before a Holy God.
On the contrary, he was sure God despised the reliance on penal substitutionary sacrifices.

Jesus didn’t seem worried at all in making people understand PSA in over three years of preaching eternal truths.
You have spent years and tons of energy teaching a doctrine that Jesus, your Master, didn’t bother to teach.
So, it is either false, or irrelevant. Most likely both.

Yep

 

[Dizerner]

King David better have been dang sure he had an atonement before his God.

God does not "bend" his Law because some sinner doesn't like the way he runs things.

for the ransom of their life is costly and can never suffice, (Ps. 49:8 ESV)