Why we naturally HATE penal substitution

[atpollard]

So you were born again in the first century?

I was ... but we Baptists are MASTERS of "Already and Not Yet" when it comes to things like Salvation and Justification and Glorification. You should hear the "baptism" speech we have.

So I was "born again" before the creation of the world, when God laid down a plan to bring GLORY to His Son and make that event the centerpiece of all CREATION. My "eternal destiny" was as settled, sure and certain as if we were already in heaven and everything was completed. Once God sets his mind to something, like my rebirth in Christ, it is a done deal. NOTHING will stop it. So before Adam was formed, I was already 'born again' in the grand plan of God.

Then along comes Golgotha, with the Death and Resurrection of Christ ... "It is [really] finished." Sin and Death are as defeated as they will ever be. Christ has obtained all the redemption through all the blood that will ever be needed. Sorry, Catholic Friends, but there is no need for Transubstantiation because there is no need for more "body" and more "blood" to remove more "sin". I was literally "born again" in the First Century [IN CHRIST]. Those words are critical. Without Christ (outside of Christ), all the repentance and faith and belief in the world will not enable me to be "born again" ... it only happens "In Christ" and that was "finished" in the first century.

"When the time was right" ... what an amazing phrase God offers ... empirical reality (what we experience with our physical senses) caught up with the Spiritual Reality. The veil was torn and we were "born again" in a way that both we and those around us could see. Heart transplant time (goodbye heart of stone, hello heart of flesh). Suddenly, I am WALKING in a new reality ... in the "good deeds which God prepared in advance" [Eph 2:10]. Now I know this will come as a shock to some of you, but I am not yet fully perfected ... I know, it is hard for me to believe as well ... but it is true. The BEST is still YET TO COME.

One day in the not to distant future, I will be TRULY born again. As Jesus was raised with a new "glorified body", so will I be raised with a new "glorified body". While the ability to walk through doors will be cool ... of far greater importance to me is the "you will be like Him" aspect of it. I am looking forward to having my heart and mind and soul COMPLETELY "born again" so that none of this baggage will hold me back from LOVING like He loves, THINKING like He thinks, and SEEING GOD like He sees God. Then I will be completely "born again".

So ALREADY and NOT YET "born again" ... Past, Present, Future.

 

[civic]

Col 2:13-14 YLT "And you—being dead in the trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh—He (God) made alive together with him (Jesus), having forgiven you all the trespasses, (14) having blotted out the handwriting in the ordinances that is against us, that was contrary to us, and he hath taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross"

To answer your question: God wiped out His handwriting in ordinances that were against us, that were contrary to us, having nailed it to the cross.

Luk 22:19-20 And he took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body, which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me.” (20) And likewise the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood.

In a merciful and judicial move of God, He gave His own Son to die for our sins, of which our Lord willingly became a Son of Man and sacrificed his life for our sins; to remove them by offering up His life for them; known as bearing (carrying) them into death and the grave. This single righteous act was sufficient for all the sins of mankind, and brought the free gift of justification to life for all men.

We are forgiven because we trust Jesus and His message to be true. We are no longer under the Law but under faith, The Law was nailed to the cross. It is God's handwriting in ordinances that was against us, that was contrary to us and is no longer in effect for us to be justified by God. We are justified by our faith that the death of Jesus justifies us before God.

God Bless

Amen brother

 

[Marvelloustime]

Civic you know i love ya , but i have to admit something worried me a bit .
I need to hear you say
he who beleives NOT that JESUS is the CHRIST
is actually calling GOD a liar . THERE is reason for this .
I know how they try and slip us into the rabbit hole .
ANY one that can say JESUS is not the CHRIST is truly calling GOD a liar .
In fact i will also remind us of what john also wrote .
WHO IS a liar . ITS he that DENIES JESUS is the CHRIST , HE is anti christ .
ONLY BY THE SPIRIT does one call HIM LORD
but NO MAN by the SPIRIT could deny HE IS CHRIST . they are still trapped in darkness
of satan and in deadly dire danger .
ITs far more serious what i speak of my friend . WE being groomed my friend .
THEY know how to slip things in at the first . WE must come to the fully persauded mind
and let not an arrow one , a thought one , try and convince us otherwise . THEY are slick my friend .
BUT we must stand FIRM my friend .
People can holler all day long at me , IF they so desire
and holler You aint perfect , YOU aint this or that
BUT I CAN PROMISE US ALL ONE THING .
MY DIRE DETERMINATION to PREACH JESUS THE CHRIST
and allow not a single thought contrary to be taught ,
WELL GOD DARN SURE AINT angry at me , NOR is that a fault .
I KNOW WHO SAVES . And i simply cannot allow even the smallest bit of leaven
to try and lead anyone into any kind of false hope . ITS JESUS For me my friend .
I KNOW no man can save themselves , MOST OF ALL this wicked thing i once was .
I DIDNT SAVE ME . And I like anyone else FELL FAR SHORT of the righteousness and GLORY OF GOD .
BUT EVERONE else just like me , HAS DONE THE SAME .
WE WERE ALL UNDER THE SENTANCE OF DEATH . SOMEONE FREED US . HIS NAME IS JESUS .
i wont allow a false love to offer up any kind of false hope . And i know how slick the enemy is
HE always picks and pecks with the tiniest amount of falsehood to bring folks right into THE LIE .

@TOTHALORDBEALLGLORY
“He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭5‬:‭10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

if Jesus did not suffer spiritual death

we are all still dead in our sin. atonement has not been made.

I am dumbfounded as to how many do not like this idea.. the most loving thing God could do. he did so you and I could spend eternity with him, and yet they claim it never happened

 

[Elliot]

A long history of biblical exegesis and theological reflection has shaped our understanding of the atonement today. The more prominent highlights of this history have acquired familiar names for the household of faith: Christus Victor, penal substitutionary, subjective, and governmental. Recently the penal substitutionary view, and particularly its misappropriations, has been critiqued, and a lively debate has taken hold within the Church.

The real argument taking place is The Nature of the Atonement is whether Christ’s death should be understood as penal or substitutionary, and on that question, there are only two views: yes it should, or no it should not.

In the Bible, atonement refers to the means by which God saves human beings from the consequences of sin. The atonement is accomplished through the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Christ’s sacrifice makes it possible for people to be forgiven and to have eternal life. The Day of Atonement or Yom Kippur is the highest holy day of the Jewish calendar.

In Christianity, atonement is the needed reconciliation between sinful mankind and the holy God, which is possible through the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ. Christ's mediatorial work and sufferings are the ground or efficient cause of reconciliation with God.
Under the law, atonement could be used to cleanse objects. For instance, one must make atonement for a house that has been cleared of mold.

Then he is to release the live bird in the open fields outside the town. In this way he will make atonement for the house, and it will be clean." Leviticus 14:53

The word atonement only appears in the New Testament once, in the KJV translation:
And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement. Romans 5:11 KJV

That should make it crystal clear.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

A long history of biblical exegesis and theological reflection has shaped our understanding of the atonement today. The more prominent highlights of this history have acquired familiar names for the household of faith: Christus Victor, penal substitutionary, subjective, and governmental. Recently the penal substitutionary view, and particularly its misappropriations, has been critiqued, and a lively debate has taken hold within the Church.

The real argument taking place is The Nature of the Atonement is whether Christ’s death should be understood as penal or substitutionary, and on that question, there are only two views: yes it should, or no it should not.

or both

if a penal code demands payment and someone decides to fit in as a substitute to pay back that payment for someone who can not pay it back.

it is called penal substitutionary atonement

 

[John Evens]

Jesus the sinless Son of God became sin for us. How could this be? Some translations attempt to soften the blow by translating “sin offering” instead of “sin.” Although that is acceptable in terms of the Greek language, it is not necessary. Paul is not suggesting that Christ literally became a sinner. Such a thing would be not possible. Christ remained personally sinless while hanging on the cross. He never committed a sin and therefore never became a sinner. However, in some sense that is beyond our understanding he “became sin” for us.

Perhaps the best way to understand this is to say that God treated his Son as if he were a sinner. He so identified with sinners that he was numbered among the transgressors .

Therefore I will divide him a portion with the great,
and he shall divide the spoil with the strong;
because he poured out his soul to death,
and was numbered with the transgressors;
yet he bore the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors.
Isaiah 53:12

He not only died between two sinners, he was numbered with them and died as they died–a criminal’s death on the Cross. This follows from the first truth. On the cross Jesus became the sinless Sin-Bearer. He paid the price we owed to God, the debt we could never pay.

 

[DavidTree]

I was ... but we Baptists are MASTERS of "Already and Not Yet" when it comes to things like Salvation and Justification and Glorification. You should hear the "baptism" speech we have.

So I was "born again" before the creation of the world, when God laid down a plan to bring GLORY to His Son and make that event the centerpiece of all CREATION. My "eternal destiny" was as settled, sure and certain as if we were already in heaven and everything was completed. Once God sets his mind to something, like my rebirth in Christ, it is a done deal. NOTHING will stop it. So before Adam was formed, I was already 'born again' in the grand plan of God.

Then along comes Golgotha, with the Death and Resurrection of Christ ... "It is [really] finished." Sin and Death are as defeated as they will ever be. Christ has obtained all the redemption through all the blood that will ever be needed. Sorry, Catholic Friends, but there is no need for Transubstantiation because there is no need for more "body" and more "blood" to remove more "sin". I was literally "born again" in the First Century [IN CHRIST]. Those words are critical. Without Christ (outside of Christ), all the repentance and faith and belief in the world will not enable me to be "born again" ... it only happens "In Christ" and that was "finished" in the first century.

"When the time was right" ... what an amazing phrase God offers ... empirical reality (what we experience with our physical senses) caught up with the Spiritual Reality. The veil was torn and we were "born again" in a way that both we and those around us could see. Heart transplant time (goodbye heart of stone, hello heart of flesh). Suddenly, I am WALKING in a new reality ... in the "good deeds which God prepared in advance" [Eph 2:10]. Now I know this will come as a shock to some of you, but I am not yet fully perfected ... I know, it is hard for me to believe as well ... but it is true. The BEST is still YET TO COME.

One day in the not to distant future, I will be TRULY born again. As Jesus was raised with a new "glorified body", so will I be raised with a new "glorified body". While the ability to walk through doors will be cool ... of far greater importance to me is the "you will be like Him" aspect of it. I am looking forward to having my heart and mind and soul COMPLETELY "born again" so that none of this baggage will hold me back from LOVING like He loves, THINKING like He thinks, and SEEING GOD like He sees God. Then I will be completely "born again".

So ALREADY and NOT YET "born again" ... Past, Present, Future.

So I was "born again" before the creation of the world, when God laid down a plan to bring GLORY to His Son and make that event the centerpiece of all CREATION. My "eternal destiny" was as settled, sure and certain as if we were already in heaven and everything was completed. Once God sets his mind to something, like my rebirth in Christ, it is a done deal. NOTHING will stop it. So before Adam was formed, I was already 'born again' in the grand plan of God.

Are you joking or do you believe this?

 

[DavidTree]

Jesus the sinless Son of God became sin for us. How could this be? Some translations attempt to soften the blow by translating “sin offering” instead of “sin.” Although that is acceptable in terms of the Greek language, it is not necessary. Paul is not suggesting that Christ literally became a sinner. Such a thing would be not possible. Christ remained personally sinless while hanging on the cross. He never committed a sin and therefore never became a sinner. However, in some sense that is beyond our understanding he “became sin” for us.

Perhaps the best way to understand this is to say that God treated his Son as if he were a sinner. He so identified with sinners that he was numbered among the transgressors .

Therefore I will divide him a portion with the great,
and he shall divide the spoil with the strong;
because he poured out his soul to death,
and was numbered with the transgressors;
yet he bore the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors.
Isaiah 53:12

He not only died between two sinners, he was numbered with them and died as they died–a criminal’s death on the Cross. This follows from the first truth. On the cross Jesus became the sinless Sin-Bearer. He paid the price we owed to God, the debt we could never pay.

Not beyond our understanding.

He became sin for us on His BODY on the Cross - His FLESH became the sin bearer = Romans 8:3

For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful man, as an offering for sin. He thus condemned sin in the flesh,

His Spirit/Soul was NEVER tainted by sin

 

[DavidTree]

the suffering He was about to endure came from man not God.

Jesus bearing God's “cup of wrath” and being despised and forsaken by the Father and Him turning His back on the Son is not found in Scripture.

In Matthew 26:39, Jesus says, "If it be your will, let this cup pass from me." Jesus tells us precisely what the cup was. It was the cup of his suffering, which meant that He would die an agonizing death as a martyr. In the passage below, Jesus told His disciples that they would also drink of the same "cup":

Matthew 20:17-
Now Jesus was going up to Jerusalem. On the way, he took the Twelve aside and said to them, 18 “We are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be delivered over to the chief priests and the teachers of the law. They will condemn him to death 19 and will hand him over to the Gentiles to be mocked and flogged and crucified. On the third day he will be raised to life!”20 Then the mother of Zebedee’s sons came to Jesus with her sons and, kneeling down, asked a favor of him. 21 “What is it you want?” he asked. She said, "Grant that one of these two sons of mine may sit at your right and the other at your left in your kingdom."22 “You don’t know what you are asking,” Jesus said to them. “Can you drink the cup I am going to drink?” “We can,” they answered. 23 Jesus said to them, “You will indeed drink from my cup, but to sit at my right or left is not for me to grant. These places belong to those for whom they have been prepared by my Father.”

1Thessalonians 5:9-For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.

As we see above it was not the cup of wrath Jesus was speaking about but it was the suffering He was going to have to endure for our sins. God has not appointed us to wrath and the cup means the suffering of Jesus and that the disciples would also suffer death as martyrs. In fact, many scriptures testify that believers too will suffer persecution for being a follower of Jesus. Suffering persecution is a promise for a believer who follows Jesus, it is something we should expect to happen in our life.

2 Timothy 3:12- Yes, and everyone who wants to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution.

John 15:20
Remember the word that I spoke to you: 'No servant is greater than his master.' If they persecuted Me, they will persecute you as well; if they kept My word, they will keep yours as well.

Matthew 5:10 - Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

2 Corinthians 4:9- persecuted, but not forsaken; struck down, but not destroyed.


Who put Jesus to death, who was responsible ?

Acts 2:23
this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men.

Acts 2:36
“Therefore, let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah.”

Acts 4:10- Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole…

Acts 5:30- The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree

Matthew 16:21
From that time on Jesus began to show His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, chief priests, and scribes, and that He must be killed and on the third day be raised to life

Matthew 20:18-19
“We are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be delivered over to the chief priests and the teachers of the law. They will condemn him to death and will deliver Him over to the Gentiles to be mocked and flogged and crucified. And on the third day He will be raised to life."

Matthew 27:1- When the morning was come, all the chief priests and elders of the people took counsel against Jesus to put him to death:

Matthew 27:35- When they had crucified Him, they divided up His garments by casting lots.

Mark 15:24- And they crucified Him. They also divided His garments by casting lots to decide what each of them would take

conclusion: The One who made Atonement for my sins completely left out PSA and not once mentioned it or hinted at it in any way, shape or form. He said His death was a substitution, ransom, Passover, sacrifice and for forgiveness of sins- expiation. There was no wrath from the Father to the Son. The anger, wrath, vengeance, retribution as the Apostles taught in Acts and Jesus taught in the gospels came from evil and wicked men.

hope this helps !!!

OK finally got to this.

EXCELLENT scriptures and very GOOD/on point to "God did not pour out His Wrath on JESUS.

the suffering He was about to endure came from man not God.

Well, that statement, like pre-trib rapture is a half truth correct the other half error

Christ's Suffering came from the FATHER and was foreordained "from the foundation of the world".

God used satan and the captivity of sinful men to carry out the Plan of Salvation = Genesis 3:15, Isa 53:4-10

And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her Seed;
He shall bruise your head,
And you shall bruise His heel.”

Yet we esteemed Him stricken,
Smitten by God, and afflicted.

Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise Him;
He has put Him to grief.
When You make His soul an offering for sin,

 

[Presby02]

You're the one who brought up Col 2:14, not me. I see that your presuppositions got thrown for a 100 yard loss with Rev 13:8. Let's see how your calvinism gets you out of the mess that it made for

Nope sins paid for but they did not take effect until I believed the gospel and became a child of God and no more condemnation. Jesus spells this out clearly in John 3:16-18.

Your view contradicts Jesus teaching in John 3:16-18. You need to realign your beliefs with Jesus teaching since He is the Truth.

So sins taken away in the first century are not really taken away?

Your view contradicts Colossians 2:14. You should realign your beliefs with Paul's teachings as he is teaching the truth. Man that's easy.

 

[synergy]

So sins taken away in the first century are not really taken away?

Huh? You mean before the Cross? Everyone's sins are atoned for only at the Cross. If you know of another way that atones for our sins then let's hear it.

Your view contradicts Colossians 2:14. You should realign your beliefs with Paul's teachings as he is teaching the truth. Man that's easy.

Nope.

Again, just 2 verses earlier, faith is mentioned as an integral part of us receiving forgiveness and being made alive. You should realign your beliefs with Paul's teachings as he is teaching the truth. Back at you.

12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.

 

[Presby02]

Huh? You mean before the Cross? Everyone's sins are atoned for only at the Cross. If you know of another way that atones for our sins then let's hear it.

Nope.

Again, just 2 verses earlier, faith is mentioned as an integral part of us receiving forgiveness and being made alive. You should realign your beliefs with Paul's teachings as he is teaching the truth. Back at you.

12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.

What you espouse is universalism.

 

[Joe]

if Jesus did not suffer spiritual death

we are all still dead in our sin. atonement has not been made.

I am dumbfounded as to how many do not like this idea.. the most loving thing God could do. he did so you and I could spend eternity with him, and yet they claim it never happened

Jesus is God, the Great "IAM", the One who made everything and all things are sustained by Him.

He is the Almighty God, Eternal Father as Isaiah prophesied.

"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one!"

Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!"

And, “You, Lord (Jesus), laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the work of your hands; they will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment, like a robe you will roll them up, like a garment they will be changed. But you are the same, and your years will have no end.” (Heb 1:10-12)


If spiritual death is being separated from God, then how did Jesus separate from Himself?


God Bless

 

[synergy]

What you espouse is universalism.

Huh? Not everyone repents so how can I eapouse universalism?

Actually, it's calvinists that espouse universalism. Since it is God's will that all are saved and calvinists believe that man has no say in that matter then ipso facto all calvinists are by definition Universalists.

 

[civic]

Jesus is God, the Great "IAM", the One who made everything and all things are sustained by Him.

He is the Almighty God, Eternal Father as Isaiah prophesied.

"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one!"

Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!"

And, “You, Lord (Jesus), laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the work of your hands; they will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment, like a robe you will roll them up, like a garment they will be changed. But you are the same, and your years will have no end.” (Heb 1:10-12)


If spiritual death is being separated from God, then how did Jesus separate from Himself?


God Bless

Amen

 

[civic]

Huh? Not everyone repents so how can I eapouse universalism?

Actually, it's calvinists that espouse universalism. Since it is God's will that all are saved and calvinists believe that man has no say in that matter then ipso facto all calvinists are by definition Universalists.

yes its called projecting.

 

[atpollard]

Are you joking or do you believe this?

No joke.
The God that speaks reality into being [Genesis 1] CAUSES His plan to unfold ... God is not a bystander with his fingers crossed just hoping that everything works out OK.

Ephesians 1 talks about "the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will" ... that means "God does it" ... for every possible "it" that occurs.

Isaiah 45:7 [ESV] I form light and create darkness; I make well-being and create calamity; I am the LORD, who does all these things.

[But I will drop this now as it is off topic ... I just wanted to answer the question asked.]

 

[DavidTree]

No joke.
The God that speaks reality into being [Genesis 1] CAUSES His plan to unfold ... God is not a bystander with his fingers crossed just hoping that everything works out OK.

Ephesians 1 talks about "the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will" ... that means "God does it" ... for every possible "it" that occurs.

Isaiah 45:7 [ESV] I form light and create darkness; I make well-being and create calamity; I am the LORD, who does all these things.

[But I will drop this now as it is off topic ... I just wanted to answer the question asked.]

This what you posted is TRUTH and "no joke".

According to TRUTH = God's Word = you were NOT Born-Again prior to your being born into this world.

How do we know??? = by the TRUTH = "Thy word is truth" = Ephesians 2:1-3

And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

 

[atpollard]

This what you posted is TRUTH and "no joke".

According to TRUTH = God's Word = you were NOT Born-Again prior to your being born into this world.

How do we know??? = by the TRUTH = "Thy word is truth" = Ephesians 2:1-3

And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

Start a topic if you really want to discuss it. I will not respond further here (off topic).