It is. It is actually taken away as the text says. It would seem strange if it was taken away yet we remained guilty.
Why we naturally HATE penal substitution
- Thread starter Dizerner
- Start date
So. What was taken away according to the text? And when?
Sin by providing forgiveness , ransom, substitution
Last edited by a moderator:
civic
Active Member
you answered your own question sin by forgiveness, ransom, substitution and Passover all taught by Jesus Himself below.
After-all He is the Truth and He taught the truth below. I'll sticjk with the final authority on the Atonement- God the Son who is the One who made the atonement. Notice nothing penal below,justice being served or wrath.
He said His death was a Substitution, a Ransom, a Passover, a Sacrifice and for forgiveness of sins- Expiation.
1- Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. John 15:13 Substitution, Ransom
2-No man takes my life I lay it down and I will take it up again- John 10:18 Substitution, Ransom
3- I lay My life down for the sheep- John 10:15Substitution, Ransom
4- Jesus viewed His death as the Passover John 6:51
5-just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a Ransom for many- Matthew 20:28
6-I Am the Good Shepherd who lays down His life for the sheep- Substitution, John 10:11
7-Jesus said in John 11:50- nor do you take into account that it is expedient for you that one man die for the people, and that the whole nation not perish- Substitution
8 -This is my blood of the Covenant which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins- Matthew 26:28
hope this helps !!!
DavidTree
Active Member
What was poured out on HIM then?
DavidTree
Active Member
Substitution and Ransom = How???
If i damage your car/truck, i can substitute/ransom money to cover my offence to your vehicle.
Yet we know that we were not redeemed(ransomed) with gold, silver or precious jewels.
So how do you see what took place upon Christ?
civic
Active Member
See Matthew 20:28- even as the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.
lutron: Ransom, Redemption Price
Original Word: λύτρον
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: lutron
Pronunciation: LOO-tron
Phonetic Spelling: (loo'-tron)
Definition: Ransom, Redemption Price
Meaning: the purchasing money for manumitting slaves, a ransom, the price of ransoming; especially the sacrifice by which expiation is effected, an offering of expiation.
Corresponding Greek / Hebrew Entries: • Strong's Hebrew 3724: כֹּפֶר (kopher) – Atonement, ransom, price of a life.
• Strong's Hebrew 6299: פָּדָה (padah) – To ransom, redeem, rescue.
• Strong's Hebrew 1350: גָּאַל (ga'al) – To redeem, act as a kinsman-redeemer.
These Hebrew terms provide a foundational understanding of the concept of redemption and ransom, which is further developed and fulfilled in the New Testament through the use of λύτρον. The continuity between the Old and New Testaments highlights the consistent biblical narrative of God's redemptive plan for humanity.
Usage: The term λύτρον is used in the New Testament to describe the concept of a ransom, particularly in the context of Christ's sacrificial death as a means of redemption for humanity.
Context: The Greek word λύτρον appears in the New Testament as a significant theological term that conveys the idea of redemption and liberation through the payment of a price. In the cultural context of the ancient world, λύτρον referred to the sum paid to free a slave or captive, a concept that resonates deeply with the biblical theme of salvation.
In the New Testament, λύτρον is notably used in the teachings of Jesus to describe His mission and the purpose of His sacrificial death. For instance, in Matthew 20:28 (BSB), Jesus states, "just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life as a ransom for many." Similarly, in Mark 10:45 (BSB), the same declaration is made, emphasizing the redemptive purpose of Christ's life and death.
Theologically, λύτρον underscores the belief that humanity, enslaved by sin, is liberated through the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ. This concept is central to the Christian understanding of salvation, where Christ's death is seen as the ultimate ransom that reconciles humanity with God, offering freedom from the bondage of sin and the promise of eternal life.
The use of λύτρον in the New Testament reflects the fulfillment of Old Testament prophecies and typologies concerning redemption. It aligns with the sacrificial system and the concept of atonement found in the Hebrew Scriptures, where the shedding of blood was necessary for the forgiveness of sins.
hope this helps !!!
civic
Active Member
nothing since nowhere is the bible does it say anything was poured on Him.
Joe
Active Member
Col 2:13-14 YLT "And you—being dead in the trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh—He (God) made alive together with him (Jesus), having forgiven you all the trespasses, (14) having blotted out the handwriting in the ordinances that is against us, that was contrary to us, and he hath taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross"
To answer your question: God wiped out His handwriting in ordinances that were against us, that were contrary to us, having nailed it to the cross.
Luk 22:19-20 And he took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body, which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me.” (20) And likewise the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood.
In a merciful and judicial move of God, He gave His own Son to die for our sins, of which our Lord willingly became a Son of Man and sacrificed his life for our sins; to remove them by offering up His life for them; known as bearing (carrying) them into death and the grave. This single righteous act was sufficient for all the sins of mankind, and brought the free gift of justification to life for all men.
We are forgiven because we trust Jesus and His message to be true. We are no longer under the Law but under faith, The Law was nailed to the cross. It is God's handwriting in ordinances that was against us, that was contrary to us and is no longer in effect for us to be justified by God. We are justified by our faith that the death of Jesus justifies us before God.
God Bless
DavidTree
Active Member
OK, let's go further.
His Life being offered as a " Ransom for many" = but how?
Thru death = Yes = but how?
Thru such brutal beating that HE was so disfigured you could not recognize Him and this before HE went to the Cross.
This is MUCH Different then when Abraham offered up Isaac.
Last edited:
DavidTree
Active Member
The accompanying drink offering is to be a quarter of a hin of fermented drink with each lamb.
Pour out the drink offering to the LORD at the sanctuary. - Numbers 28:7
And he burnt his burnt offering and his meat offering, and poured his drink offering,
and sprinkled the blood of his peace offerings, upon the altar. 2 Kings 16:13
"Father, if it be your will, let this Cup of Suffering pass from me, nevertheless not My will by Thine be Done."
Last edited:
civic
Active Member
First of all the bible never makes the connection between Isaac and Jesus, Abraham and the Father in the Genesis account. Can you point me to anyone in the N.T. applying Abraham/Isaac to the Father/ Son ?
There are so many things taught in the pulpits that the bible never teaches and people assume its true. I fact check everything with Scripture. No scripture to support a doctrine or idea then I discard it.
Scripture alone is my authority not what man teaches in seminary of the pulpit.
I'm in several different mens discipleship groups and home groups that have elders/pastors in them. I always question a statement being made with where does it say that in the bible ?
Got Scripture ?
Then there is defining biblical words and their meaning and not isolating a verse from the biblical narrative to come up with a belief that in many other places is contradicted.
hope this helps !!!
Last edited:
civic
Active Member
the suffering He was about to endure came from man not God.
Jesus bearing God's “cup of wrath” and being despised and forsaken by the Father and Him turning His back on the Son is not found in Scripture.
In Matthew 26:39, Jesus says, "If it be your will, let this cup pass from me." Jesus tells us precisely what the cup was. It was the cup of his suffering, which meant that He would die an agonizing death as a martyr. In the passage below, Jesus told His disciples that they would also drink of the same "cup":
Matthew 20:17-
Now Jesus was going up to Jerusalem. On the way, he took the Twelve aside and said to them, 18 “We are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be delivered over to the chief priests and the teachers of the law. They will condemn him to death 19 and will hand him over to the Gentiles to be mocked and flogged and crucified. On the third day he will be raised to life!”20 Then the mother of Zebedee’s sons came to Jesus with her sons and, kneeling down, asked a favor of him. 21 “What is it you want?” he asked. She said, "Grant that one of these two sons of mine may sit at your right and the other at your left in your kingdom."22 “You don’t know what you are asking,” Jesus said to them. “Can you drink the cup I am going to drink?” “We can,” they answered. 23 Jesus said to them, “You will indeed drink from my cup, but to sit at my right or left is not for me to grant. These places belong to those for whom they have been prepared by my Father.”
1Thessalonians 5:9-For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.
As we see above it was not the cup of wrath Jesus was speaking about but it was the suffering He was going to have to endure for our sins. God has not appointed us to wrath and the cup means the suffering of Jesus and that the disciples would also suffer death as martyrs. In fact, many scriptures testify that believers too will suffer persecution for being a follower of Jesus. Suffering persecution is a promise for a believer who follows Jesus, it is something we should expect to happen in our life.
2 Timothy 3:12- Yes, and everyone who wants to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution.
John 15:20
Remember the word that I spoke to you: 'No servant is greater than his master.' If they persecuted Me, they will persecute you as well; if they kept My word, they will keep yours as well.
Matthew 5:10 - Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
2 Corinthians 4:9- persecuted, but not forsaken; struck down, but not destroyed.
Who put Jesus to death, who was responsible ?
Acts 2:23
this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men.
Acts 2:36
“Therefore, let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah.”
Acts 4:10- Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole…
Acts 5:30- The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree
Matthew 16:21
From that time on Jesus began to show His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, chief priests, and scribes, and that He must be killed and on the third day be raised to life
Matthew 20:18-19
“We are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be delivered over to the chief priests and the teachers of the law. They will condemn him to death and will deliver Him over to the Gentiles to be mocked and flogged and crucified. And on the third day He will be raised to life."
Matthew 27:1- When the morning was come, all the chief priests and elders of the people took counsel against Jesus to put him to death:
Matthew 27:35- When they had crucified Him, they divided up His garments by casting lots.
Mark 15:24- And they crucified Him. They also divided His garments by casting lots to decide what each of them would take
conclusion: The One who made Atonement for my sins completely left out PSA and not once mentioned it or hinted at it in any way, shape or form. He said His death was a substitution, ransom, Passover, sacrifice and for forgiveness of sins- expiation. There was no wrath from the Father to the Son. The anger, wrath, vengeance, retribution as the Apostles taught in Acts and Jesus taught in the gospels came from evil and wicked men.
hope this helps !!!
DavidTree
Active Member
Sure thing my Brother in Arms = JESUS makes the connection
#1 - Genesis 22:1-2
Now it came to pass after these things that God tested Abraham, and said to him, “Abraham!”
And he said, “Here I am.”
Then He said, “Take now your son, your only son Isaac, whom you love, and go to the land of Moriah,
and offer him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains of which I shall tell you.”
'Abraham' means Father of nations
#2 - JESUS - John 8:56
Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.”
Did you know that the name 'Isaac' means to laugh/be glad/rejoice
How about one more........#3 - Apostle Paul/Galatians ch3
And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith,
preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.”
So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham.
Still need MORE - Let's keep going
#4 - Apostle Paul/Romans ch9
But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.” That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed.
For this is the word of promise: “At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son.”
Let's go for FIVE - #5 - Hebrews 11:17-19
By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises offered up his only begotten son, of whom it was said, “In Isaac your seed shall be called,”
concluding that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead,
from which he also received him(Isaac) in a figurative sense(CHRIST).
SHALOM and this definitely HELPS
DavidTree
Active Member
civic
Active Member
Nothing there about connecting their sacrifices.
I believe all the above scriptures but as you can clearly see no one in the NT compares Jesus and Isaac with Abraham and the Father with the sacrifice of their sons.
civic
Active Member
Alright you too brother !!
DavidTree
Active Member
You've got to be kidding me!!!
It is SPELLED out in the most Clear Way
Anywho - i have to get some rest
Love you and thank you for your encouragment in Christ
Great. But i adked
And when,according to Colossians 2:14, was your sin taken away? When it was nailed to the cross correct?
Christ went through everything to cure and provide atonement for man but at no point was the Father wrathfully pouring out retributive judgment upon the son
Man's sin is taken away when he believes
Acts 10:43 (NASB95) — 43 “Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.”
Similar threads
