Why we naturally HATE penal substitution

[Fellow Traveler]

There is a view that teaches that our Lord had paid a ransom to the devil. Now I rejected that, but there is something in it which is perfectly true. Our Lord, in doing this work, did deal with the devil. Jesus bruised the serpent's head on Calvary.

Now this view of the atonement has sometimes been called the classical view, classical, because it was taught in the early centuries and has been repeated very often since. One who repeated it was Martin Luther.

Luther said that man, in this life and born in sin, has five main enemies: Satan, sin, death, the law and the wrath of God, and, according to Luther, before a man can be saved those five enemies have to be dealt with.

One thing is certain something was happening between the Father and the Son upon the cross, but at the same time the Son was waging a mighty battle. And He won the victory for us.

 

[Thaddeus]

Scripture tells us over and over that Christ took the penalty of our sin—all of it—upon Himself. If you put your trust in Christ, you do not have to pay that penalty, because it has already been paid in full.

The truth is, all sin is serious because all sin is a breaking of God’s Law.

The apostle John wrote, “Sin is lawlessness”. All sin, even sin that seems so minor in our eyes, is lawlessness. It is not just the breaking of a single command; it is a complete disregard for the Law of God, a deliberate rejection of His moral will in favor of fulfilling our own desires.

In our civil laws, we draw a huge distinction between an otherwise “law-abiding citizen” who gets an occasional traffic ticket and a person who lives a “lawless” life in contempt and utter disregard for all laws. But the Bible does not seem to make that distinction. Rather, it simply says sin —all sin without distinction —is lawlessness.

In Greek culture, sin originally meant to “miss the mark” —to miss the center of the target. Therefore, sin was considered a miscalculation or failure to achieve.

We all sin and fall short of the glory of God. He know what He was getting when He saved us.

 

[Dizerner]

where did God say say He judged your sin at the cross ?

having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. (Col. 2:14 NKJ)

You object "Aha! It doesn't say the judgment or wrath!"

But it references "the requirements of the Law that were against us."

This is a direct reference to the Law's judgments against sin.

So we see, by simple direct exegesis of the verse, that the judgment of the Law was nailed to the Cross.

 

[civic]

having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. (Col. 2:14 NKJ)

You object "Aha! It doesn't say the judgment or wrath!"

But it references "the requirements of the Law that were against us."

This is a direct reference to the Law's judgments against sin.

So we see, by simple direct exegesis of the verse, that the judgment of the Law was nailed to the Cross.

Just as I expected, presuppositions

 

[atpollard]

When did God judge your sin?

[Psa 32:5 NASB20] I acknowledged my sin to You, And I did not hide my guilt; I said, "I will confess my wrongdoings to the LORD"; And You forgave the guilt of my sin. Selah

[Psa 85:2 NASB20] You forgave the guilt of Your people; You covered all their sin. Selah

[Mar 3:28 NASB20] "Truly I say to you, all sins will be forgiven the sons [and daughters] of men, and whatever blasphemies they commit;

[Luk 5:20 NASB20] And seeing their faith, He said, "Friend, your sins are forgiven you."

[Luk 7:48 NASB20] And He said to her, "Your sins have been forgiven."

[Rom 4:7 NASB20] "BLESSED ARE THOSE WHOSE LAWLESS DEEDS HAVE BEEN FORGIVEN, AND WHOSE SINS HAVE BEEN COVERED.

[Jas 5:15 NASB20] and the prayer of faith will restore the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up, and if he has committed sins, they will be forgiven him.

[1Jo 2:12 NASB20] I am writing to you, little children, because your sins have been forgiven you on account of His name.

GOD did WHAT to my sins?

 

[TomL]

Notice how you completely evaded my question?

When did God judge your sin?

See, by removing that element from the Cross, you are in fact denying it.

Oh, you admit there was a "cross," but you deny the purpose and meaning of it.

God judged your sin on the Cross.

Are you for real?

Who mentioned anything eliminating the cross?

You are reading into existence that which has not been denied.

Hello the cross was not denied. Through the cross we have atonement.

That is if we believe we receive forgiveness

Perhaps you should not assume what others hold and make false claims.

 

[TomL]

That’s the core teaching of PSA.

Some imagine that if the father did not retributively pour forth wrath upon the son there is no atonement

 

[civic]

Some imagine that if the father did not retributively pour forth wrath upon the son there is no atonement

and even one step further one is denying the gospel.

 

[Dizerner]

Are you for real?

Nothing could be more real.

I don't play games with Scripture or doctrine.

You cannot find one place I have altered my view or my passion on this in the years you have interacted with me.

I don't just come to spam arguments over and over, like so many do.

I have sacrificed so many things in life to give myself to seeking the truth and bring it to others.

Yet you ask, "Are you for real."

I'm as for real as God suffering your punishment, sir.

I'm as for real as the Cross of Christ.

If Christ DOES NOT PAY THE FULL PRICE OF YOUR SINS, you literally HAVE NO ATONEMENT BEFORE A HOLY GOD.

And you want to say your sin doesn't have to be punished in Christ.

You make "atonement" whatever you want it to mean, instead of what Scripture says it is.

Yahweh laid on him the iniquity of us all, Christ suffered for our sins, he made him to be sin, the punishment that would bring us peace God put upon Christ, he alone saves us from the wrath and fury for our disobedience.

I fear God for mockery and hard hearts that go on here.

There WILL be a reckoning for it.

It is only through intercession and the extreme mercy of the Savior any striving has even gone on this long.

You'll remember the man pleading God's Word on Judgment Day.

And you'll say, "Thank you for trying."

 

[civic]

Nothing could be more real.

I don't play games with Scripture or doctrine.

You cannot find one place I have altered my view or my passion on this in the years you have interacted with me.

I don't just come to spam arguments over and over, like so many do.

I have sacrificed so many things in life to give myself to seeking the truth and bring it to others.

Yet you ask, "Are you for real."

I'm as for real as God suffering your punishment, sir.

I'm as for real as the Cross of Christ.

If Christ DOES NOT PAY THE FULL PRICE OF YOUR SINS, you literally HAVE NO ATONEMENT BEFORE A HOLY GOD.

And you want to say your sin doesn't have to be punished in Christ.

You make "atonement" whatever you want it to mean, instead of what Scripture says it is.

Yahweh laid on him the inquiry of us all, Christ suffered for our sins, he made him to be sin, the punishment that would bring us peace God put upon Christ, he alone saves us from the wrath and fury for our disobedience.

I fear God for mockery and hard hearts that go on here.

There WILL be a reckoning for it.

It is only through intercession and the extreme mercy of the Savior any striving has even gone on this long.

You'll remember the man pleading God's Word on Judgment Day.

And you'll say, "Thank you for trying."

You don't understand the 2 natures in Christ and that He is Divine Person, not a human person. God cannot be separated from God. Its an oxymoron, illogical and unbiblical.

 

[civic]

[Psa 32:5 NASB20] I acknowledged my sin to You, And I did not hide my guilt; I said, "I will confess my wrongdoings to the LORD"; And You forgave the guilt of my sin. Selah

[Psa 85:2 NASB20] You forgave the guilt of Your people; You covered all their sin. Selah

[Mar 3:28 NASB20] "Truly I say to you, all sins will be forgiven the sons [and daughters] of men, and whatever blasphemies they commit;

[Luk 5:20 NASB20] And seeing their faith, He said, "Friend, your sins are forgiven you."

[Luk 7:48 NASB20] And He said to her, "Your sins have been forgiven."

[Rom 4:7 NASB20] "BLESSED ARE THOSE WHOSE LAWLESS DEEDS HAVE BEEN FORGIVEN, AND WHOSE SINS HAVE BEEN COVERED.

[Jas 5:15 NASB20] and the prayer of faith will restore the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up, and if he has committed sins, they will be forgiven him.

[1Jo 2:12 NASB20] I am writing to you, little children, because your sins have been forgiven you on account of His name.

GOD did WHAT to my sins?

Yep

 

[TomL]

Nothing could be more real.

I don't play games with Scripture or doctrine.

You cannot find one place I have altered my view or my passion on this in the years you have interacted with me.

I don't just come to spam arguments over and over, like so many do.

I have sacrificed so many things in life to give myself to seeking the truth and bring it to others.

Yet you ask, "Are you for real."

I'm as for real as God suffering your punishment, sir.

I'm as for real as the Cross of Christ.

If Christ DOES NOT PAY THE FULL PRICE OF YOUR SINS, you literally HAVE NO ATONEMENT BEFORE A HOLY GOD.

And you want to say your sin doesn't have to be punished in Christ.

You make "atonement" whatever you want it to mean, instead of what Scripture says it is.

Yahweh laid on him the iniquity of us all, Christ suffered for our sins, he made him to be sin, the punishment that would bring us peace God put upon Christ, he alone saves us from the wrath and fury for our disobedience.

I fear God for mockery and hard hearts that go on here.

There WILL be a reckoning for it.

It is only through intercession and the extreme mercy of the Savior any striving has even gone on this long.

You'll remember the man pleading God's Word on Judgment Day.

And you'll say, "Thank you for trying."

You still posted a falsity as I noted

Hello the cross was not denied. Through the cross we have atonement.

That is if we believe we receive forgiveness

Perhaps you should not assume what others hold and make false claims.

It is your belief in God needing to retributively pour wrath against his son and forsake him that is the issue

2 Corinthians 5:19 (LEB) — 19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.

 

[civic]

You still posted a falsity as I noted

Hello the cross was not denied. Through the cross we have atonement.

That is if we believe we receive forgiveness

Perhaps you should not assume what others hold and make false claims.

It is your belief in God needing to retributively pour wrath against his son and forsake him that is the issue

2 Corinthians 5:19 (LEB) — 19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.

Agreed

 

[TomL]

Agreed

Yes

 

[civic]

You still posted a falsity as I noted

Hello the cross was not denied. Through the cross we have atonement.

That is if we believe we receive forgiveness

Perhaps you should not assume what others hold and make false claims.

It is your belief in God needing to retributively pour wrath against his son and forsake him that is the issue

2 Corinthians 5:19 (LEB) — 19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.

yes PSA is full is falsities.

 

[Presby02]

Just as I expected, presuppositions

You did not address his text. Colossians 2:14 to be exact.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

It directly offends our PRIDE, a man will go to hell just for his pride!

What directly offends our PRIDE is to recognize that God’s mercy is for free, and granted to the Calvinist, the Mormon, the Catholic and the Muslim who repented and turned from their evil ways… without the need of any theological adherence.
That’s a big blow to pride… more specifically, to the pride of some theologians.
The common Baptist or Pentecostal churchgoer rejoices in knowing these things, either openly or on his pillow before going to sleep.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

If Christ DOES NOT PAY THE FULL PRICE OF YOUR SINS, you literally HAVE NO ATONEMENT BEFORE A HOLY GOD.

King David didn’t seem worried at all about having no atonement before a Holy God.
On the contrary, he was sure God despised the reliance on penal substitutionary sacrifices.

Jesus didn’t seem worried at all in making people understand PSA in over three years of preaching eternal truths.
You have spent years and tons of energy teaching a doctrine that Jesus, your Master, didn’t bother to teach.
So, it is either false, or irrelevant. Most likely both.

 

[civic]

You did not address his text. Colossians 2:14 to be exact.

nice try as judged and wrath are missing from the text.

next fallacy

 

[atpollard]

You did not address his text. Colossians 2:14 to be exact.

I agree.
I do not believe in the transfer of wrath, but I do not believe in "scripture pong".
If an 'opponent' (brother in Christ with a different exegesis) offers SCRIPTURE - especially one verse rather than a wall of verses - then honest conversation demands that a gauntlet has been thrown down and should be taken up and addressed (honestly) before moving on.

As I understand the argument ... "The LAW against us has been nailed to the Cross: How is that not transferred guilt/condemnation?"
Is that a correct understanding?

[If I have more time to examine the verse in context, I may attempt a response to the challenge.]