Why we naturally HATE penal substitution

Dizerner

Active Member
It directly offends our PRIDE, a man will go to hell just for his pride!

We want to PAY our own way, we want to be masters of our destiny, we want to not OWE someone something.


Remember what Peter said right before the cross?

"Lord, may this never happen to you!"


But why? Because he loved Jesus so much he felt sorry for him? No!

Peter knew that if Jesus just died in ignominy it meant the death of all his own dreams of greatness.
 
.
I suspect Jesus' crucifixion is a bit more intimate than merely substitution, rather,
it's an identification.

"Don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized
into his death?" (Rom 6:3)

If I'm reading that correctly, it indicates that folks unified with Christ were joint
principals with him in his crucifixion so that when he was put to death on the cross,
they were put to death too. (Rom 6:6, Gal 2:20, Col 3:3)

This is very similar to the mechanics of the so-called original sin, viz: when Adam
tasted the forbidden fruit, we were all accounted as having tasted it too.

"Sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way
death came to all men, because all sinned" (Rom 5:12)

The grammatical syntax of that verse is past tense rather than present or future,
indicating that Adam's posterity doesn't inherit his mistake, but instead we were all
slammed with the consequences of his mistake right then and there with him.

Now; we were given no say in our unification with Adam and his mistake, whereas
we are given some say as to whether we'd like to unify with Christ and his cross;
and we can do this by a simple RSVP.

Find some privacy. Cover your face with your hands-- it will give you a sense of
connection. And in your own words, either under your breath or out loud, tell God
you would like to take part in His son's death to protect yourself from retribution.
_
 
I suspect Jesus' crucifixion is a bit more intimate than merely substitution, rather,
it's an identification.

Great point, Olde Tymer, it's nice to have your input.

Maybe we could say it's not an either/or scenario but rather a both/and scenario here.

Sometimes I think about what experiencing the hell I deserved must have been like, and why anyone would endure that for me.
 
Great point, Olde Tymer, it's nice to have your input.

Maybe we could say it's not an either/or scenario but rather a both/and scenario here.

Sometimes I think about what experiencing the hell I deserved must have been like, and why anyone would endure that for me.
?

Christ did not go to Hell
 
It directly offends our PRIDE, a man will go to hell just for his pride!

We want to PAY our own way, we want to be masters of our destiny, we want to not OWE someone something.


Remember what Peter said right before the cross?

"Lord, may this never happen to you!"


But why? Because he loved Jesus so much he felt sorry for him? No!

Peter knew that if Jesus just died in ignominy it meant the death of all his own dreams of greatness.
Actually PSA feeds man’s pride.
 
It directly offends our PRIDE, a man will go to hell just for his pride!

We want to PAY our own way, we want to be masters of our destiny, we want to not OWE someone something.


Remember what Peter said right before the cross?

"Lord, may this never happen to you!"


But why? Because he loved Jesus so much he felt sorry for him? No!

Peter knew that if Jesus just died in ignominy it meant the death of all his own dreams of greatness.
You really do twist the thoughts of those who reject PSA

While ignoring the fact scripture nowhere states God had to pour out retribution upon Christ to settle his own need to express such wrath on Christ.
 
You really do twist the thoughts of those who reject PSA

No I don't, you .....

While ignoring the fact scripture nowhere states God had to pour out retribution upon Christ to settle his own need to express such wrath on Christ.

Yes, it does you .....


Explain to me how Jesus dying doesn't "break" the Trinity and create a division, and you've refuted your own invalid argument.
 
Actually PSA feeds man’s pride.

I mean anything can potentially make a man proud, even God's grace and mercy.

But it is definitely not logically based in exalting the man, to say Jesus' suffered for his sins.

That makes no sense at all.
 
I mean anything can potentially make a man proud, even God's grace and mercy.

But it is definitely not logically based in exalting the man, to say Jesus' suffered for his sins.

That makes no sense at all.
It devalues God, divides the Godhead , pits the Father against the Son, brakes their fellowship, falsely accuses God that He cannot look upon sin resulting in the Father turning His back upon the Son adandoning Him etc.....

which all of the above are untrue.
 
It directly offends our PRIDE, a man will go to hell just for his pride!
We want to PAY our own way, we want to be masters of our destiny, we want to not OWE someone something.
I am only bothered by
  1. The lack of SCRIPTURE that affirms any transfer of wrath.
  2. The presence of scripture that speaks of simple "forgiveness" (with no need for a payment).
Therefore, I am left to embrace the biblical example of:
  • Wrath for the day of wrath
  • Wrath for the enemies of God
  • Love, Mercy and Forgiveness available to "whosoever believes" (no wrath, no judgement, sins will not be remembered)
To the extent that the human alleged works of Christ align with scripture, I embrace them.
To the extent that the human alleged works of Christ conflict with scripture, I must reject them.
 
Hell is not just a "place."

Hell is God's wrath against all ungodliness.
[H7585] שְׁאוֹל shᵉʼôwl, sheh-ole'; or שְׁאֹל shᵉʼôl; from H7592; hades or the world of the dead (as if a subterranean retreat), including its accessories and inmates:—grave, hell, pit. [occurs 66 times in 64 verses]

† שְׁאוֺל, שְׁאֹל noun feminine<a href="https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/psa/86/13/s_564013">Psalm 86:13</a> (apparently masculine Job 26:6 compare Isaiah 14:9, see AlbrZAW xvi(1896), 51) She’ôl, underworld (√ dubious; שׁאל, i.e. palce of inquiry (reference to necromancy) JastrAmos. Jsem. Lang. xiv. 170. cf JBL xix (1900), 88 ff. (JeremiasLebenn. d. Tode 109 'Ort der Entscheidung'); Thes BöDe Inf. § 158 Di and others compare √ שׁעל, whence שֹׁעַל hallow hand, etc.; שׁ׳ then = hallow place, 'Hölle', hell; other conjectures see Hup<a href="https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/psa/6/6/s_484006">Psalm 6:6</a> De<a href="https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/isa/5/14/s_684014">Isaiah 5:14</a> BeerBibl. Hades in HoltzmannFestgabe, 1902, 15; most now refrain from positive etymology (e.g. Buhl); Old Aramaic שאול, Syriac
bdb098201
; Assyrian šu-alu is dubious: so reads and interprets DlPa 121, Prol. 47. 145 JastrAmos. J. Semitic Lang. xiv. 165 ff. Ency. Bibs.v.; opposed to by BertinTSBA viii. 269 JenKosmol. 223 ff. ZimKAT 3. 636 and others; see also Muss-ArnoltJBL xi (1892), 169 and references); — always absolute, שְׁאוֺל Deuteronomy 32:22 + 52 times,הָ֯ Genesis 42:38; Psalm 9:18; שְׁאֹל 1 Kings 2:6; Job 17:16, הָ֯ Genesis 37:35 +7 times; + Isaiah 7:11 (so read for שְׁאָ֫לָה Aq Σ Θ Du Che and now most); —​
1. the underworld, תַּחְתִּית שׁ׳ Deuteronomy 32:22, מִתַּחַת Isaiah 14:9; מִ֑טָּה מִשּׁ׳ Proverbs 15:24; || מָוֶת Proverbs 5:5; Proverbs 7:27; Songs 8:6; Psalm 89:49; whither men descend at death, Genesis 37:35 (E), Genesis 42:38; Genesis 44:29, 31 (J), 1 Samuel 2:6; 1 Kings 2:6, 9; Job 7:9; Job 21:13; Isaiah 14:11, 15; Psalm 88:4, and Korah and associates go down alive by י׳'s judgment, Numbers 16:30, 33 (J), compare Psalm 55:16; under mountains and sea Job 26:6 (compare Job 26:5), בֶּטֶן שׁ׳ Jonah 2:3 (compare Jonah 2:7); with bars Job 17:16 (si vera lectio: see Du); שׁ׳ פִּי Psalm 141:7; שַׁעֲרֵי שׁ׳ Isaiah 38:10; personified Isaiah 28:15, 18 (|| מות). as insatiable monster Isaiah 5:14; Habakkuk 2:5; Proverbs 1:12; Proverbs 27:20; Proverbs 30:16; as said (figurative) to have snares, חֶבְלֵי שׁ׳ Psalm 18:6 = 2 Samuel 22:6 compare מְצָרֵי שׁ׳ Psalm 116:3; opposed to (height of) שָׁמַיִם Amos 9:2; Job 11:8; Psalm 139:8 + (opposed to לְמָ֑עְלָה) Isaiah 7:11 (see above); dark, gloomy, without return Job 17:13 (compare Job 17:16; Job 7:9; Job 10:21; Job 16:22; all being alike Job 3:17-19; Job 21:23-26); without work or knowledge or wisdom according to Ecclesiastes 9:5, 6, 10 (compare Job 14:21, and see רְפָאִים below רפה; yet compare Isaiah 14:9f.).​
2. condition of righteous and wicked distinguished in שׁ׳ (later than 1 Samuel 28, especially in Wisdom Literature):​
a. wicked יָשׁוּבוּ לִשְׁא֑וֺלָה Psalm 9:18, יִדְּמוּ לִשׁ׳ Psalm 31:18; death is their shepherd, without power and honour they waste away Psalm 49:15 (twice in verse); שׁ׳ consumes them as drought water Job 24:19; righteous dread it because no praise or presence of God there (as in temple) Psalm 6:6 (compare Psalm 88:5), Isaiah 38:18; deliverance from it a blessing Psalm 30:4; Psalm 86:13; Proverbs 23:14. In Ezek. שׁ׳ is land below, place of reproach, abode of uncircumcised Ezekiel 31:15, 16, 17; Ezekiel 32:21, 27
b. righteous shall not be abandoned, לשׁ׳ Ezekiel 16:10 (|| שַׁחַת which see; opposed to אִרַח חַיִּים etc., Ezekiel 16:11, compare Ezekiel 17:15), is ransomed from שׁ׳ Ezek 49:16 (compare Ezek 73:23; Ezek 73:25; Isaiah 57:1, 2); compare Job's expectation and desire Job 14:13; Job 17:13 (compare Job 10:21; Job 19:25f.).​
3. later distinction of places in שׁ׳ :​
a. depths of שׁ׳ for sensualist Proverbs 9:18.​
b. וַאֲבַדּוֺן שׁ׳ Proverbs 25:11, see אֲבַדּוֺן. [שַׁחַת and בּוֺר, which see, when || שׁ׳, are usually in bad sense (Psalm 88:4); probably = pit in שׁ׳, > שׁ׳ itself as pit; words at least prepare for local distinctions of post-Biblical Judaism and NT.]​
4. שׁ׳ figurative of extreme degradation in sin Isaiah 57:9; as place of exile for Israel Hosea 13:14 (twice in verse) (compare Isaiah 26:19).​

[G1067] γέεννα géenna, gheh'-en-nah; of Hebrew origin (H1516 and H2011); valley of (the son of) Hinnom; ge-henna (or Ge-Hinnom), a valley of Jerusalem, used (figuratively) as a name for the place (or state) of everlasting punishment:—hell. [occurs 12 times in 12 verses]

γέεννα [others would accent γεέννα, deriving it through the Chaldee. In Mark 9:45 Rec.st γέενα], -ης [Buttmann, 17 (15)], ἡ, (from הִנֹּם גֵּי, Nehemiah 11:30; more fully בֶּן־הִנֹּם גֵּיא, Joshua 15:8; Joshua 18:16; 2 Chronicles 28:3; Jeremiah 7:32; בְּנֵי־הִנֹּם גֵּי, 2 Kings 23:10 K'ethibh; Chaldean גְּהִנָם, the valley of the son of lamentation, or of the sons of lamentation, the valley of lamentation, הִנֹּם being used for נִהֹם lamentation; see Hiller, Onomasticum; cf. Hitzig [and Graf] on Jeremiah 7:31; [Böttcher, De Inferis, i., p. 82ff]; accusative to the common opinion הִנֹּם is the name of a man), Gehenna, the name of a valley on the south and east of Jerusalem [yet apparently beginning on the West, cf. Joshua 15:8; Pressel in Herzog, under the word], which was so called from the cries of the little children who were thrown into the fiery arms of Moloch [which see], i. e. of an idol having the form of a bull. The Jews so abhorred the place after these horrible sacrifices had been abolished by king Josiah (2 Kings 23:10), that they cast into it not only all manner of refuse, but even the dead bodies of animals and of unburied criminals who had been executed. And since fires were always needed to consume the dead bodies, that the air might not become tainted by the putrefaction, it came to pass that the place was called γέεννα τοῦ πυρός [this common explanation of the descriptive genitive τοῦ πυρός is found in Rabbi David Kimchi (fl. circa A.D. 1200) on Psalm 27:13. Some suppose the genitive to refer not to purifying fires but to the fires of Moloch; others regard it as the natural symbol of penalty (cf. Leviticus 10:2; Numbers 16:35; 2 Kings 1; Psalm 11:6; also Matthew 3:11; Matthew 13:42; 2 Thessalonians 1:8, etc.). See Böttcher, as above, p. 84; Meyer (Thol.,) Wetstein on Matthew 5:22]; and then this name was transferred to that place in Hades where the wicked after death will suffer punishment: Matthew 5:22, 29; Matthew 10:28; Luke 12:5; Mark 9:43, 45; James 3:6; γέεννα τοῦ πυρός, Matthew 5:22; Matthew 18:9; Mark 9:47 [R G Tr marginal reading brackets]; κρίσις τῆς γέεννης, Matthew 23:33; υἱὸς τῆς γέεννης, worthy of punishment in Gehenna, Matthew 23:15. Further, cf. Dillmann, Buch Henoch, 27, 1f, p. 131f; [B. D. American edition; Böttcher, as above, p. 80ff; Hamburger, Real-Encycl., Abth. I. under the word Hölle; Bartlett, Life and Death eternal, Appendix H.].​

OUTLINE OF BIBLICAL USAGE:
[H7585] sheol, underworld, grave, hell, pit
  1. the underworld
  2. Sheol - the OT designation for the abode of the dead
    1. place of no return
    2. without praise of God
    3. wicked sent there for punishment
    4. righteous not abandoned to it
    5. of the place of exile (fig)
    6. of extreme degradation in sin
[G1067]
Hell is the place of the future punishment called "Gehenna" or "Gehenna of fire". This was originally the valley of Hinnom, south of Jerusalem, where the filth and dead animals of the city were cast out and burned; a fit symbol of the wicked and their future destruction.
 
[H7585] שְׁאוֹל shᵉʼôwl, sheh-ole'; or שְׁאֹל shᵉʼôl; from H7592; hades or the world of the dead (as if a subterranean retreat), including its accessories and inmates:—grave, hell, pit. [occurs 66 times in 64 verses]

† שְׁאוֺל, שְׁאֹל noun feminine<a href="https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/psa/86/13/s_564013">Psalm 86:13</a> (apparently masculine Job 26:6 compare Isaiah 14:9, see AlbrZAW xvi(1896), 51) She’ôl, underworld (√ dubious; שׁאל, i.e. palce of inquiry (reference to necromancy) JastrAmos. Jsem. Lang. xiv. 170. cf JBL xix (1900), 88 ff. (JeremiasLebenn. d. Tode 109 'Ort der Entscheidung'); Thes BöDe Inf. § 158 Di and others compare √ שׁעל, whence שֹׁעַל hallow hand, etc.; שׁ׳ then = hallow place, 'Hölle', hell; other conjectures see Hup<a href="https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/psa/6/6/s_484006">Psalm 6:6</a> De<a href="https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/isa/5/14/s_684014">Isaiah 5:14</a> BeerBibl. Hades in HoltzmannFestgabe, 1902, 15; most now refrain from positive etymology (e.g. Buhl); Old Aramaic שאול, Syriac
bdb098201
; Assyrian šu-alu is dubious: so reads and interprets DlPa 121, Prol. 47. 145 JastrAmos. J. Semitic Lang. xiv. 165 ff. Ency. Bibs.v.; opposed to by BertinTSBA viii. 269 JenKosmol. 223 ff. ZimKAT 3. 636 and others; see also Muss-ArnoltJBL xi (1892), 169 and references); — always absolute, שְׁאוֺל Deuteronomy 32:22 + 52 times,הָ֯ Genesis 42:38; Psalm 9:18; שְׁאֹל 1 Kings 2:6; Job 17:16, הָ֯ Genesis 37:35 +7 times; + Isaiah 7:11 (so read for שְׁאָ֫לָה Aq Σ Θ Du Che and now most); —​
1. the underworld, תַּחְתִּית שׁ׳ Deuteronomy 32:22, מִתַּחַת Isaiah 14:9; מִ֑טָּה מִשּׁ׳ Proverbs 15:24; || מָוֶת Proverbs 5:5; Proverbs 7:27; Songs 8:6; Psalm 89:49; whither men descend at death, Genesis 37:35 (E), Genesis 42:38; Genesis 44:29, 31 (J), 1 Samuel 2:6; 1 Kings 2:6, 9; Job 7:9; Job 21:13; Isaiah 14:11, 15; Psalm 88:4, and Korah and associates go down alive by י׳'s judgment, Numbers 16:30, 33 (J), compare Psalm 55:16; under mountains and sea Job 26:6 (compare Job 26:5), בֶּטֶן שׁ׳ Jonah 2:3 (compare Jonah 2:7); with bars Job 17:16 (si vera lectio: see Du); שׁ׳ פִּי Psalm 141:7; שַׁעֲרֵי שׁ׳ Isaiah 38:10; personified Isaiah 28:15, 18 (|| מות). as insatiable monster Isaiah 5:14; Habakkuk 2:5; Proverbs 1:12; Proverbs 27:20; Proverbs 30:16; as said (figurative) to have snares, חֶבְלֵי שׁ׳ Psalm 18:6 = 2 Samuel 22:6 compare מְצָרֵי שׁ׳ Psalm 116:3; opposed to (height of) שָׁמַיִם Amos 9:2; Job 11:8; Psalm 139:8 + (opposed to לְמָ֑עְלָה) Isaiah 7:11 (see above); dark, gloomy, without return Job 17:13 (compare Job 17:16; Job 7:9; Job 10:21; Job 16:22; all being alike Job 3:17-19; Job 21:23-26); without work or knowledge or wisdom according to Ecclesiastes 9:5, 6, 10 (compare Job 14:21, and see רְפָאִים below רפה; yet compare Isaiah 14:9f.).​
2. condition of righteous and wicked distinguished in שׁ׳ (later than 1 Samuel 28, especially in Wisdom Literature):​
a. wicked יָשׁוּבוּ לִשְׁא֑וֺלָה Psalm 9:18, יִדְּמוּ לִשׁ׳ Psalm 31:18; death is their shepherd, without power and honour they waste away Psalm 49:15 (twice in verse); שׁ׳ consumes them as drought water Job 24:19; righteous dread it because no praise or presence of God there (as in temple) Psalm 6:6 (compare Psalm 88:5), Isaiah 38:18; deliverance from it a blessing Psalm 30:4; Psalm 86:13; Proverbs 23:14. In Ezek. שׁ׳ is land below, place of reproach, abode of uncircumcised Ezekiel 31:15, 16, 17; Ezekiel 32:21, 27
b. righteous shall not be abandoned, לשׁ׳ Ezekiel 16:10 (|| שַׁחַת which see; opposed to אִרַח חַיִּים etc., Ezekiel 16:11, compare Ezekiel 17:15), is ransomed from שׁ׳ Ezek 49:16 (compare Ezek 73:23; Ezek 73:25; Isaiah 57:1, 2); compare Job's expectation and desire Job 14:13; Job 17:13 (compare Job 10:21; Job 19:25f.).​
3. later distinction of places in שׁ׳ :​
a. depths of שׁ׳ for sensualist Proverbs 9:18.​
b. וַאֲבַדּוֺן שׁ׳ Proverbs 25:11, see אֲבַדּוֺן. [שַׁחַת and בּוֺר, which see, when || שׁ׳, are usually in bad sense (Psalm 88:4); probably = pit in שׁ׳, > שׁ׳ itself as pit; words at least prepare for local distinctions of post-Biblical Judaism and NT.]​
4. שׁ׳ figurative of extreme degradation in sin Isaiah 57:9; as place of exile for Israel Hosea 13:14 (twice in verse) (compare Isaiah 26:19).​

[G1067] γέεννα géenna, gheh'-en-nah; of Hebrew origin (H1516 and H2011); valley of (the son of) Hinnom; ge-henna (or Ge-Hinnom), a valley of Jerusalem, used (figuratively) as a name for the place (or state) of everlasting punishment:—hell. [occurs 12 times in 12 verses]

γέεννα [others would accent γεέννα, deriving it through the Chaldee. In Mark 9:45 Rec.st γέενα], -ης [Buttmann, 17 (15)], ἡ, (from הִנֹּם גֵּי, Nehemiah 11:30; more fully בֶּן־הִנֹּם גֵּיא, Joshua 15:8; Joshua 18:16; 2 Chronicles 28:3; Jeremiah 7:32; בְּנֵי־הִנֹּם גֵּי, 2 Kings 23:10 K'ethibh; Chaldean גְּהִנָם, the valley of the son of lamentation, or of the sons of lamentation, the valley of lamentation, הִנֹּם being used for נִהֹם lamentation; see Hiller, Onomasticum; cf. Hitzig [and Graf] on Jeremiah 7:31; [Böttcher, De Inferis, i., p. 82ff]; accusative to the common opinion הִנֹּם is the name of a man), Gehenna, the name of a valley on the south and east of Jerusalem [yet apparently beginning on the West, cf. Joshua 15:8; Pressel in Herzog, under the word], which was so called from the cries of the little children who were thrown into the fiery arms of Moloch [which see], i. e. of an idol having the form of a bull. The Jews so abhorred the place after these horrible sacrifices had been abolished by king Josiah (2 Kings 23:10), that they cast into it not only all manner of refuse, but even the dead bodies of animals and of unburied criminals who had been executed. And since fires were always needed to consume the dead bodies, that the air might not become tainted by the putrefaction, it came to pass that the place was called γέεννα τοῦ πυρός [this common explanation of the descriptive genitive τοῦ πυρός is found in Rabbi David Kimchi (fl. circa A.D. 1200) on Psalm 27:13. Some suppose the genitive to refer not to purifying fires but to the fires of Moloch; others regard it as the natural symbol of penalty (cf. Leviticus 10:2; Numbers 16:35; 2 Kings 1; Psalm 11:6; also Matthew 3:11; Matthew 13:42; 2 Thessalonians 1:8, etc.). See Böttcher, as above, p. 84; Meyer (Thol.,) Wetstein on Matthew 5:22]; and then this name was transferred to that place in Hades where the wicked after death will suffer punishment: Matthew 5:22, 29; Matthew 10:28; Luke 12:5; Mark 9:43, 45; James 3:6; γέεννα τοῦ πυρός, Matthew 5:22; Matthew 18:9; Mark 9:47 [R G Tr marginal reading brackets]; κρίσις τῆς γέεννης, Matthew 23:33; υἱὸς τῆς γέεννης, worthy of punishment in Gehenna, Matthew 23:15. Further, cf. Dillmann, Buch Henoch, 27, 1f, p. 131f; [B. D. American edition; Böttcher, as above, p. 80ff; Hamburger, Real-Encycl., Abth. I. under the word Hölle; Bartlett, Life and Death eternal, Appendix H.].​

OUTLINE OF BIBLICAL USAGE:
[H7585] sheol, underworld, grave, hell, pit
  1. the underworld
  2. Sheol - the OT designation for the abode of the dead
    1. place of no return
    2. without praise of God
    3. wicked sent there for punishment
    4. righteous not abandoned to it
    5. of the place of exile (fig)
    6. of extreme degradation in sin
[G1067]
Hell is the place of the future punishment called "Gehenna" or "Gehenna of fire". This was originally the valley of Hinnom, south of Jerusalem, where the filth and dead animals of the city were cast out and burned; a fit symbol of the wicked and their future destruction.
Amen
 
No I don't, you .....



Yes, it does you .....


Explain to me how Jesus dying doesn't "break" the Trinity and create a division, and you've refuted your own invalid argument.
Wake up. It is not his dying which breaks the trinity, but God's wrathful retribution against the son and the resulting forsaking and separation which splits the trinity.

The marring and disfigurement in view here are of course a description of what took place immediately prior to our Lord’s crucifixion, while he was on trial. Jesus’s disfigurement actually began in Gethsemane on the night of his betrayal and arrest. Scripture describes the deep, inward anguish and utter physical exhaustion he experienced as the sinless Son of God contemplated sin bearing and separation from his Father. The Gospel according to God - John McArthur



At that moment on the cross, as Jesus Christ carried on His holy shoulders the sins of the world, the rebellion, and all the worst things we can imagine, the Father could not look upon sin. The Bible says that His eyes are too pure to look on sin, and He could not see the sin that His Son was carrying. For that moment, there was a separation in the Godhead between the Father and the Son.

That is what made Jesus weep in Gethsemane, knowing what was coming—that moment of separation for which He was born. That was the true pain of the cross; that was the sacrifice of the cross. That sounds like a divided Trinity to me. In Michael Youssef's own words, there is a separation between the Father and the Son—there is division in the Godhead. God's Wrath in PSA - Answering Mike Winger E10



He didn’t just feel forsaken—He was forsaken.

For Jesus to become the curse, He had to be utterly, totally, and completely forsaken by the Father. RC Sproul



If there ever was an obscenity that violates contemporary community standards, it was Jesus on the cross. After he became the scapegoat and the Father had imputed to him every sin of every one of his people, the most intense, dense concentration of evil ever experienced on this planet was exhibited. Jesus was the ultimate obscenity.

So what happened? God is too holy to look at sin. He could not bear to look at that concentrated monumental condensation of evil, so he averted his eyes from his Son. The light of his countenance was turned off. All blessedness was removed from his Son, whom he loved, and in its place was the full measure of the divine curse.

Jesus Was Forsaken

At midday he turned the lights out on the hill outside of Jerusalem so that when his face moved away, when the light of his countenance shut down, even the sun couldn't shine on Calvary. Bearing the full measure of the curse, Christ screamed, "Eli, Eli lema sabachthani," that is, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" (Matt. 27:46).

Jesus took that occasion to identify with the psalmist in Psalm 22 in order to call attention to those looking upon the spectacle that what they were witnessing was really a fulfillment of prophecy. I don't think Jesus was in a Bible-quoting mood at the time. His cry was not, as Albert Schweitzer opined, the cry of a disillusioned prophet who had believed that God was going to rescue him at the eleventh hour and then felt forsaken. He didn't just feel forsaken; he was forsaken. For Jesus to become the curse, he had to be completely forsaken by the Father. Forsaken: Jesus Became A Curse by R.C. Sproul



For Jesus to become the curse, he had to be completely forsaken by the Father

https://www.monergism.com › far-curse-found



The cross was the supreme circumcision. When Jesus took the curse on Himself and so identified with our sin that He became a curse, God cut Him off, and justly so. At the moment when Christ took on Himself the sin of the world, His figure on the cross was the most grotesque, most obscene mass of concentrated sin in the history of the world. God is too holy to look on iniquity, so when Christ hung on the cross, the Father, as it were, turned His back. He averted His face and He cut off His Son. Jesus, Who, touching His human nature, had been in a perfect, blessed relationship with God throughout His ministry, now bore the sin of God’s people, and so He was forsaken by God. RC Sproul The Crucifixion and Old Testament Prophecy | Effectual Grace
 
Wake up. It is not his dying which breaks the trinity, but God's wrathful retribution against the son and the resulting forsaking and separation which splits the trinity.

The marring and disfigurement in view here are of course a description of what took place immediately prior to our Lord’s crucifixion, while he was on trial. Jesus’s disfigurement actually began in Gethsemane on the night of his betrayal and arrest. Scripture describes the deep, inward anguish and utter physical exhaustion he experienced as the sinless Son of God contemplated sin bearing and separation from his Father. The Gospel according to God - John McArthur



At that moment on the cross, as Jesus Christ carried on His holy shoulders the sins of the world, the rebellion, and all the worst things we can imagine, the Father could not look upon sin. The Bible says that His eyes are too pure to look on sin, and He could not see the sin that His Son was carrying. For that moment, there was a separation in the Godhead between the Father and the Son.

That is what made Jesus weep in Gethsemane, knowing what was coming—that moment of separation for which He was born. That was the true pain of the cross; that was the sacrifice of the cross. That sounds like a divided Trinity to me. In Michael Youssef's own words, there is a separation between the Father and the Son—there is division in the Godhead. God's Wrath in PSA - Answering Mike Winger E10



He didn’t just feel forsaken—He was forsaken.

For Jesus to become the curse, He had to be utterly, totally, and completely forsaken by the Father
. RC Sproul



If there ever was an obscenity that violates contemporary community standards, it was Jesus on the cross. After he became the scapegoat and the Father had imputed to him every sin of every one of his people, the most intense, dense concentration of evil ever experienced on this planet was exhibited. Jesus was the ultimate obscenity.

So what happened? God is too holy to look at sin. He could not bear to look at that concentrated monumental condensation of evil, so he averted his eyes from his Son. The light of his countenance was turned off. All blessedness was removed from his Son, whom he loved, and in its place was the full measure of the divine curse.

Jesus Was Forsaken

At midday he turned the lights out on the hill outside of Jerusalem so that when his face moved away, when the light of his countenance shut down, even the sun couldn't shine on Calvary. Bearing the full measure of the curse, Christ screamed, "Eli, Eli lema sabachthani," that is, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" (Matt. 27:46).

Jesus took that occasion to identify with the psalmist in Psalm 22 in order to call attention to those looking upon the spectacle that what they were witnessing was really a fulfillment of prophecy. I don't think Jesus was in a Bible-quoting mood at the time. His cry was not, as Albert Schweitzer opined, the cry of a disillusioned prophet who had believed that God was going to rescue him at the eleventh hour and then felt forsaken. He didn't just feel forsaken; he was forsaken. For Jesus to become the curse, he had to be completely forsaken by the Father. Forsaken: Jesus Became A Curse by R.C. Sproul



For Jesus to become the curse, he had to be completely forsaken by the Father

https://www.monergism.com › far-curse-found



The cross was the supreme circumcision. When Jesus took the curse on Himself and so identified with our sin that He became a curse, God cut Him off, and justly so. At the moment when Christ took on Himself the sin of the world, His figure on the cross was the most grotesque, most obscene mass of concentrated sin in the history of the world. God is too holy to look on iniquity, so when Christ hung on the cross, the Father, as it were, turned His back. He averted His face and He cut off His Son. Jesus, Who, touching His human nature, had been in a perfect, blessed relationship with God throughout His ministry, now bore the sin of God’s people, and so He was forsaken by God. RC Sproul The Crucifixion and Old Testament Prophecy | Effectual Grace
Untenable
 
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