civic
Active Member
I've already buried that argument as Peter quotes it in the NT and opposes your understaning.Isaiah Preached this Isa 53:5
Should I believe Peter an Apostle and inspired writer or you ?
hmmm
I've already buried that argument as Peter quotes it in the NT and opposes your understaning.Isaiah Preached this Isa 53:5
Lets not forget that they brought false charges against Jesus Christ. Matthew 26:59The cross was not a courtroom of God it was His Mercy Seat. The courtroom was mans doing that condemned Him, not God.
If the Cross was not a place of "Divine Punishment" where the Trinity was divided, we must ask: What actually happened to our sin? To understand this, we must move our hearts and minds away from the modern "Courtroom" and back into the biblical "Sanctuary."
The Apostles did not use the language of a criminal execution; they used the language of Purification (Katharismos)and the Mercy Seat (Hilastērion). In the Old Covenant, the blood was never intended to "calm an angry God"; it was intended to cleanse a defiled people so that a Holy God could dwell among them. In this section, we will see how Jesus, our Great High Priest, did not die to satisfy a need for violence, but to provide the ultimate Expiation—the washing away of sin that allows us to stand in the presence of the Father, holy and blameless.
Purification for sin- καθαρισμός- katharismos: a cleansing, purifying, purification, expiation. Strongs 2512.
Thayers: a cleansing from the guilt of sins (see καθαρίζω, 1 b. β.): wrought now by baptism, 2 Peter 1:9, now by the expiatory sacrifice of Christ, Hebrews 1:3 on which cf. Kurtz, Commentary, p. 70; (Exodus 30:10; τῆς ἁμαρτίας μου, Job 7:21; of an atonement, Lucian, asin. 22)
Hebrews 1:3-And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high;
Purification for sin is in the blood of Christ in the Atonement
Matthew 26:26-29
While they were eating, Jesus took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to his disciples, saying, “Take and eat; this is my body.”27 Then he took a cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you. 28 This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. 29 I tell you, I will not drink from this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom.”
Hebrews 9:22
Because all things are purged by blood in The Written Law, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.
Leviticus 4:20,26,35
And he shall do with the bullock as he did with the bullock for a sin offering, so shall he do with this: and the priest shall make an atonement for them, and it shall be forgiven them
Leviticus 6:7
And the priest shall make an atonement for him before the LORD: and it shall be forgiven him for any thing of all that he hath done in trespassing therein.
Leviticus 17:11
For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for your souls upon the altar; for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul.
Hebrews 9
Now the first covenant had regulations for worship and also an earthly sanctuary. 2 A tabernacle was set up. In its first room were the lampstand and the table with its consecrated bread; this was called the Holy Place. 3 Behind the second curtain was a room called the Most Holy Place, 4 which had the golden altar of incense and the gold-covered ark of the covenant. This ark contained the gold jar of manna, Aaron’s staff that had budded, and the stone tablets of the covenant. 5 Above the ark were the cherubim of the Glory, overshadowing the atonement cover. But we cannot discuss these things in detail now. 6 When everything had been arranged like this, the priests entered regularly into the outer room to carry on their ministry. 7 But only the high priest entered the inner room, and that only once a year, and never without blood, which he offered for himself and for the sins the people had committed in ignorance. 8 The Holy Spirit was showing by this that the way into the Most Holy Place had not yet been disclosed as long as the first tabernacle was still functioning. 9 This is an illustration for the present time, indicating that the gifts and sacrifices being offered were not able to clear the conscience of the worshiper. 10 They are only a matter of food and drink and various ceremonial washings—external regulations applying until the time of the new order.
The forgiveness of sins is found only in the blood of Christ- His life which He gave as a sacrifice for sin. That is the heart of the Atonement. It is what the New Covenant is found upon His blood, His life which was given for our sins. Forgiveness is only found in His blood that He gave His life on our behalf. That is how are sins are removed and taken away. That is what the Law required for sin was the blood of the animal sacrifice.
There is no "punishment" above anywhere. There is a sacrifice provided which covers and provides forgiveness of sins. The entire book of Hebrews is built upon the OT Law and how it is fulfilled in Christ.
Jesus said He gave His life as a Ransom . Strongs 3038- Lutron λύτρον. the purchasing money for manumitting slaves, a ransom, the price of ransoming; especially the sacrifice by which expiation is effected, an offering of expiation. Thayers: λύτρον, λύτρου, τό (λύω), the Sept. passim for כֹּפֶר, גְּאֻלָּה, פִּדְיון, etc.; the price for redeeming, ransom (paid for slaves, Leviticus 19:20; for captives, Isaiah 45:13; for the ransom of a life, Exodus 21:30; Numbers 35:31f): ἀντί πολλῶν, to liberate many from the misery and penalty of their sins, Matthew 20:28; Mark 10:45. (Pindar, Aeschylus, Xenophon, Plato, others.)
Matthew 20:28- just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life as a ransom for many
hilastērion – the atonement is received by Faith.
Romans 3:25
God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished. NIV
Romans 3:25
whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. ESV
The Mercy Seat (Hilastērion): In the Old Testament Tabernacle, the High Priest never entered the Holy of Holies to be struck by God; he entered to sprinkle blood upon the Mercy Seat. This was the specific place where God met with man in grace. Therefore, when Paul uses this word in Romans 3:25, he is identifying the Cross as the new "Meeting Place." The Atonement is not a record of God striking the Priest, but of the Priest providing the Purification necessary for God and man to be reconciled. If the Mercy Seat was the place where the glory of God dwelt between the Cherubim, then the Cross is where the glory of God’s love is most clearly seen—not in the venting of wrath, but in the provision of presence.
Some may argue that Romans 3:25 and other texts require the Father to pour wrath on the Son. However, careful exegesis and attention to the relational language of the Trinity suggest these passages describe reconciliation and covenant faithfulness rather than punitive wrath directed at Christ. the "Atonement Cover" (Hilastērion) is the Mercy Seat. In the OT, that was the place where God met with man in mercy, not the place where He struck the High Priest. This reinforces the fact that the Atonement is about reconciliation and meeting, not "punitive wrath
The Necessity of Faith: While the Atonement is a finished work of Christ, it is not a "mechanical" or "automatic" transaction. Just as the Israelite had to look at the Bronze Serpent to be healed, the sinner must look to Christ in Faith. The Atonement provides the remedy for the whole world, but that remedy only produces pardon, remission, and lifewhen it is personally received.
hope this helps !!
You think you did. Peter agrees with IsaiahI've already buried that argument as Peter quotes it in the NT and opposes your understaning.
Wrong as seen below every single N.T. quotation of Isaiah 53. Number 8 is Peters with no mention of your claim. That shows Peter did not understand it as you do.You think you did. Peter agrees with Isaiah
There is no way around it Isa 53:5 teaches PSA He was in the place of guilty sinners, who deserved the penalty of death, yet He substituted for them, God was pleased with that arrangementWrong as seen below every single N.T. quotation of Isaiah 53. Number 8 is Peters with no mention of your claim. That shows Peter did not understand it as you do.
I just quoted Peter that doesn't even hint at the meaning you give the passage.There is no way around it Isa 53:5 teaches PSA He was in the place of guilty sinners, who deserved the penalty of death, yet He substituted for them, God was pleased with that arrangement
Peter understood quite well Christ bare our sins in His Body 1 Pet 2:24Peters with no mention of your claim. That shows Peter did not understand it as you do.
Who his own self - See the notes at Hebrews 1:3, on the phrase "when he had by himself purged our sins." The meaning is, that he did it in his own proper person; he did not make expiation by offering a bloody victim, but was himself the sacrifice.
Bare our sins - There is an allusion here undoubtedly to Isaiah 53:4, Isaiah 53:12. See the meaning of the phrase "to bear sins" fully considered in the notes at those places. As this cannot mean that Christ so took upon himself the sins of people as to become himself a sinner, it must mean that he put himself in the place of sinners, and bore that which those sins deserved; that is, that he endured in his own person that which, if it had been inflicted on the sinner himself, would have been a proper expression of the divine displeasure against sin, or would have been a proper punishment for sin. See the notes at 2 Corinthians 5:21. He was treated as if he had been a sinner, in order that we might be treated as if we had not sinned; that is, as if we were righteous. There is no other way in which we can conceive that one bears the sins of another. They cannot be literally transferred to another; and all that can be meant is, that he should take the consequences on himself, and suffer as if he had committed the transgressions himself.
Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary
24. his own self—there being none other but Himself who could have done it. His voluntary undertaking of the work of redemption is implied. The Greek puts in antithetical juxtaposition, OUR, and His OWN SELF, to mark the idea of His substitution for us. His "well-doing" in His sufferings is set forth here as an example to servants and to us all (1Pe 2:20).
Obviously you dont understand PeterI just quoted Peter that doesn't even hint at the meaning you give the passage.
nothing penal there, nothing about Gods wrath on the Son.Peter understood quite well Christ bare our sins in His Body 1 Pet 2:24
Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
Thats substitution
Albert Barnes :
Obviously nothing you can seenothing penal there, nothing about Gods wrath on the Son.
because its not there in 1 Peter- you are imagining its there. It must be there in invisible ink and I need some special light to see the missing words.Obviously nothing you can see
You cant see itbecause its not there in 1 Peter-
I fully agree with your post on God's Word/the Holy ScripturesI'm still not sure what you meant by the Psalm 22 link that I had written about the character and nature of
God. I'm confused if you were agreeing, disagreeing or if you read it or not. Thanks