Runningman
Well-known member
Only the Father is being worshipped. Notice it says "at the name of Jesus every knee should bow" (not bowing to Jesus, but at the name)
Who is the only one getting glory?
1 - The Father
2 - Jesus
hope this helps !!!
Why I don’t believe or accept the trinity.
- Thread starter MatthewG
- Start date
Who is the only one getting glory?
1 - The Father
2 - Jesus
hope this helps !!!
civic
Well-known member
they bowed before Jesus just like numerous people did in the gospels. Every knee will bow and confess Jesus is LORD. It's to Him. Try reading and believing the passage.
civic
Well-known member
And Jesus received glory and honor in many places in scripture.
Runningman
Well-known member
Philippians 2:10 says nothing about bowing to Jesus. It says "bowing at the name."
Runningman
Well-known member
God's children can receive glory from the Father too. (Romans 8:30-31)
civic
Well-known member
The wise men bowed/worshiped Him as a child. From birth to death He was Worshiped and is now in heaven too.
next fallacy.
civic
Well-known member
I'm talking about Jesus not the Father. I know the Father is worshipped and in the same way Jesus is worshipped.
civic
Well-known member
you are the one who made the objection about glory in Phil 2. So then giving glory must be no big deal. This just made my case since Phil 2 says all will bow / worship the Son and confess He is Lord/ YHWH.
Runningman
Well-known member
But they didn't say he's God did they? no?
Runningman
Well-known member
Jesus wasn't ever bowed to anywhere after God took him to heaven as far as Scripture says.
Runningman
Well-known member
Jesus wasn't bowed to in Philippians 2:10. It says the name. The only one getting the glory is the Father. The only one called God in the chapter is the Father. Why would only the Father be called God if there is a Trinity?
civic
Well-known member
Sure He is worshipped
Rev 5:11-14
11 Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders; and the number of them was myriads of myriads, and thousands of thousands, 12 saying with a loud voice,
"Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing."
13 And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying,
"To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever."
14 And the four living creatures kept saying, "Amen." And the elders fell down and worshiped.
civic
Well-known member
no the text says every knee will bow before Jesus
Runningman
Well-known member
No it doesn't.
Philippians 2
10That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
Runningman
Well-known member
Beginning with Revelation 5:8-14 you should observe that in verse 8, around the throne is where the the living creatures and the elders are. Verse 13 refers to "Him who sits on the throne" and "the Lamb" showing distinction between the throne of God and the throne of the Lamb. Remember where in verse 8 it says that around the throne is where the living creatures and elders are? Verse 14 says the elders fell down and worshipped. So where they fell down was before the throne of God, and not the Lamb. They were worshipping God the Father.
civic
Well-known member
Both are on the 1 throne being worshipped together just like they do in Revelation 22.
civic
Well-known member
@Runningman a doxology and invocation are what Jews did for God.
A Doxology is reserved for God. Below we see the Triune God mentioned in the Doxologies and opening of some of the N.T. letters. The NT declares that honor and glory are due to God alone. Some doxologies only mention Christ which speaks volumes about what the Apostles thought about Him and His Glory as God. The clear fact is Jesus receives the identical glory that the Father receives. These passages also make it abundantly clear of Christ’s pre existence and glory prior to creation(see John 17:5 below). He is therefore eternal just as the Father is eternal. Jesus received the Worship and Glory while on the earth and in Revelation receives the same honor,glory,praise and worship the Father receives in heaven. Jesus must be God Incarnate !
2 Tim 4:18
18 The Lord will rescue me from every evil deed, and will bring me safely to His heavenly kingdom; to Him be the glory forever and ever. Amen.
Phil 4:20
20 Now to our God and Father be the glory forever and ever. Amen.
Gal 1:3-5
3 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ, 4 who gave Himself for our sins so that He might rescue us from this present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father, 5 to whom be the glory forevermore. Amen.
Eph 3:16-21
I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being, 17 so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith. And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, 18 may have power, together with all the saints, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ, 19 and to know this love that surpasses knowledge — that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God.20 Now to him who is able to do immeasurably more than all we ask or imagine, according to his power that is at work within us, 21 to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever and ever! Amen.
Rom 9:5
Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen.
Rom 16:25-27
25 Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which has been kept secret for long ages past, 26 but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, has been made known to all the nations, leading to obedience of faith; 27 to the only wise God, through Jesus Christ, be the glory forever. Amen.
2 Cor 13:14
May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.
1 Thess 5:19-28
Do not put out the Spirit's fire; 20 do not treat prophecies with contempt. 21 Test everything. Hold on to the good. 22 Avoid every kind of evil.
23 May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 24 The one who calls you is faithful and he will do it.
25 Brothers, pray for us. 26 Greet all the brothers with a holy kiss. 27 I charge you before the Lord to have this letter read to all the brothers.
28 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you.
2 Tim 4:22
The Lord be with your spirit. Grace be with you.
Philem 25
The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit.
Heb 13:20-21
May the God of peace, who through the blood of the eternal covenant brought back from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great Shepherd of the sheep, 21 equip you with everything good for doing his will, and may he work in us what is pleasing to him, through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
Jude 24-25
24 Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to make you stand in the presence of His glory blameless with great joy, 25 to the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen.
1 Peter 5:14
Peace to all of you who are in Christ.
2 Peter 1:1
Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ,
To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours:
2 Peter 3:18
But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever! Amen.
1 John 5:20-21
We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true — even in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.
21 Dear children, keep yourselves from idols.
Revelation 1:5-7
(5) and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To Him who loves us and released us from our sins by His blood—
(6) and He has made us to be a kingdom, priests to His God and Father—to Him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen.
(7) Behold, He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen.
1 Peter 4:11
Whoever speaks, is to do so as one who is speaking the utterances of God; whoever serves is to do so as one who is serving by the strength which God supplies; so that in all things God may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom belongs the glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.
Rev 5:11-14
11 Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders; and the number of them was myriads of myriads, and thousands of thousands, 12 saying with a loud voice,
"Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing."
13 And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying,
"To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever."
14 And the four living creatures kept saying, "Amen." And the elders fell down and worshiped.
Rev 22:17-21
The Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" And let him who hears say, "Come!" Whoever is thirsty, let him come; and whoever wishes, let him take the free gift of the water of life.
18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. 19 And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.
20 He who testifies to these things says, "Yes, I am coming soon."
Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.
21 The grace of the Lord Jesus be with God's people. Amen.
hope this helps !!!
A Doxology is reserved for God. Below we see the Triune God mentioned in the Doxologies and opening of some of the N.T. letters. The NT declares that honor and glory are due to God alone. Some doxologies only mention Christ which speaks volumes about what the Apostles thought about Him and His Glory as God. The clear fact is Jesus receives the identical glory that the Father receives. These passages also make it abundantly clear of Christ’s pre existence and glory prior to creation(see John 17:5 below). He is therefore eternal just as the Father is eternal. Jesus received the Worship and Glory while on the earth and in Revelation receives the same honor,glory,praise and worship the Father receives in heaven. Jesus must be God Incarnate !
2 Tim 4:18
18 The Lord will rescue me from every evil deed, and will bring me safely to His heavenly kingdom; to Him be the glory forever and ever. Amen.
Phil 4:20
20 Now to our God and Father be the glory forever and ever. Amen.
Gal 1:3-5
3 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ, 4 who gave Himself for our sins so that He might rescue us from this present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father, 5 to whom be the glory forevermore. Amen.
Eph 3:16-21
I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being, 17 so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith. And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, 18 may have power, together with all the saints, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ, 19 and to know this love that surpasses knowledge — that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God.20 Now to him who is able to do immeasurably more than all we ask or imagine, according to his power that is at work within us, 21 to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever and ever! Amen.
Rom 9:5
Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen.
Rom 16:25-27
25 Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which has been kept secret for long ages past, 26 but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, has been made known to all the nations, leading to obedience of faith; 27 to the only wise God, through Jesus Christ, be the glory forever. Amen.
2 Cor 13:14
May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.
1 Thess 5:19-28
Do not put out the Spirit's fire; 20 do not treat prophecies with contempt. 21 Test everything. Hold on to the good. 22 Avoid every kind of evil.
23 May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 24 The one who calls you is faithful and he will do it.
25 Brothers, pray for us. 26 Greet all the brothers with a holy kiss. 27 I charge you before the Lord to have this letter read to all the brothers.
28 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you.
2 Tim 4:22
The Lord be with your spirit. Grace be with you.
Philem 25
The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit.
Heb 13:20-21
May the God of peace, who through the blood of the eternal covenant brought back from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great Shepherd of the sheep, 21 equip you with everything good for doing his will, and may he work in us what is pleasing to him, through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
Jude 24-25
24 Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to make you stand in the presence of His glory blameless with great joy, 25 to the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen.
1 Peter 5:14
Peace to all of you who are in Christ.
2 Peter 1:1
Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ,
To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours:
2 Peter 3:18
But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever! Amen.
1 John 5:20-21
We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true — even in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.
21 Dear children, keep yourselves from idols.
Revelation 1:5-7
(5) and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To Him who loves us and released us from our sins by His blood—
(6) and He has made us to be a kingdom, priests to His God and Father—to Him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen.
(7) Behold, He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen.
1 Peter 4:11
Whoever speaks, is to do so as one who is speaking the utterances of God; whoever serves is to do so as one who is serving by the strength which God supplies; so that in all things God may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom belongs the glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.
Rev 5:11-14
11 Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders; and the number of them was myriads of myriads, and thousands of thousands, 12 saying with a loud voice,
"Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing."
13 And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying,
"To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever."
14 And the four living creatures kept saying, "Amen." And the elders fell down and worshiped.
Rev 22:17-21
The Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" And let him who hears say, "Come!" Whoever is thirsty, let him come; and whoever wishes, let him take the free gift of the water of life.
18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. 19 And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.
20 He who testifies to these things says, "Yes, I am coming soon."
Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.
21 The grace of the Lord Jesus be with God's people. Amen.
hope this helps !!!
civic
Well-known member
continued proving the Son is Equal with the Father as Phil 2 states He is.
Invocations in the N.T.
What we see here from Paul is that he equates Jesus as the source of grace and peace with the Father. Paul clearly identifies Jesus as equal with the Father and expresses His Deity with these invocations in his epistles. Not only is this a prayer from Paul but an act of worship in Paul's letters. Paul is giving Jesus the identical same honor to Jesus as he does to the Father. After all Jesus in His very own words commanded others to honor Him as you do the Father(John 5:23) Jesus thought equality with God was not something He needed to grasp for it was inherent within His nature.(Phil 2,Col 1,John 1, Heb 1, 1 John 1 etc.....) He was God in the flesh(John 1:1,14) He said he who has seen Me has seen the Father and I and the Father are one. Why would you ask to show you the Father ? You are looking at God!!!!!!! Jesus also said before Abraham was born " I Am" ( the self existing One, with no beginning). The case for the Deity of Christ and Plurality in God is bullet proof in scripture.
Rom 1:7
7 to all who are beloved of God in Rome, called as saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ
1 Cor 1:3
3 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
2 Cor 1:2
2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Gal 1:3-4
3 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ,
Eph 1:1-2
2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Phil 1:2
2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
2 Thess 1:1-2
To the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ: 2 Grace to you and peace from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Philem 3
3 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
hope this helps !!!
Invocations in the N.T.
What we see here from Paul is that he equates Jesus as the source of grace and peace with the Father. Paul clearly identifies Jesus as equal with the Father and expresses His Deity with these invocations in his epistles. Not only is this a prayer from Paul but an act of worship in Paul's letters. Paul is giving Jesus the identical same honor to Jesus as he does to the Father. After all Jesus in His very own words commanded others to honor Him as you do the Father(John 5:23) Jesus thought equality with God was not something He needed to grasp for it was inherent within His nature.(Phil 2,Col 1,John 1, Heb 1, 1 John 1 etc.....) He was God in the flesh(John 1:1,14) He said he who has seen Me has seen the Father and I and the Father are one. Why would you ask to show you the Father ? You are looking at God!!!!!!! Jesus also said before Abraham was born " I Am" ( the self existing One, with no beginning). The case for the Deity of Christ and Plurality in God is bullet proof in scripture.
Rom 1:7
7 to all who are beloved of God in Rome, called as saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ
1 Cor 1:3
3 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
2 Cor 1:2
2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Gal 1:3-4
3 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ,
Eph 1:1-2
2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Phil 1:2
2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
2 Thess 1:1-2
To the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ: 2 Grace to you and peace from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Philem 3
3 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
hope this helps !!!
Runningman
Well-known member
???
No they are not on one throne.
Revelation 3 says there is a throne for Jesus and a throne for the Father and the throne we can share with Jesus. I believe you are making the mistake of conflating the throne we will sit on with Jesus with the throne of God. Your hermeneutic allows for Christians to become God so I believe you are taking the wrong path.
See, the thrones are different:
Revelation 3
21To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
Runningman
Well-known member
When all else fails, paste a wall of scripture and commentary and hope something sticks. When I have time I'll go through all of these and show you what they mean.
