Why I don’t believe or accept the trinity.

[civic]

???

No they are not on one throne.

Revelation 3 says there is a throne for Jesus and a throne for the Father and the throne we can share with Jesus. I believe you are making the mistake of conflating the throne we will sit on with Jesus with the throne of God. Your hermeneutic allows for Christians to become God so I believe you are taking the wrong path.

See, the thrones are different:

Revelation 3
21To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

Rev 22:3- No longer will there be any curse. The throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the city, and his servants will serve him. 4 They will see his face,and his name will be on their foreheads.

They are described as serving Him, seeing Him, and resembling Him. They shall serve Him: they shall offer Him the service of the priesthood—the word employed is that used of temple service. The word translated “servants” is the word which the Apostles used when they spoke of themselves as slaves of Jesus Christ, owned as well as employed by Him (Philippians 1:1; 2Peter 2:1; Jude 1:1)

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[Runningman]

Rev 22:3- No longer will there be any curse. The throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the city, and his servants will serve him. 4 They will see his face,and his name will be on their foreheads.

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There is no grammatical forcing of the throne of God and the Lamb being the same throne there. God is not a human, but in John 1:29,30, John the Baptist called the Lamb a man. Jesus ascended to heaven as a man and they kept on calling him a man in heaven afterwards. Paul stated in 1 Timothy 2:5 that Jesus is a man between God and men decades after Jesus was already taken.

Anyway, Revelation 21 shows that God Almighty and the Lamb aren't the same person.

Revelation 21
22And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.

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[civic]

When all else fails, paste a wall of scripture and commentary and hope something sticks. When I have time I'll go through all of these and show you what they mean.

Its my personal study, my notes that expose you are wrong and I'm correct concerning Christ.

 

[civic]

There is no grammatical forcing of the throne of God and the Lamb being the same throne there. God is not a human, but in John 1:29,30, John the Baptist called the Lamb a man. Jesus ascended to heaven as a man and they kept on calling him a man in heaven afterwards. Paul stated in 1 Timothy 2:5 that Jesus is a man between God and men decades after Jesus was already taken.

Anyway, Revelation 21 shows that God Almighty and the Lamb aren't the same person.

Revelation 21
22And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.

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see this thread where @Fred and I make a bullet proof case for Christ that no one can argue against from Scripture.

https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/doxology-and-invocation.113/

 

[Runningman]

Its my personal study, my notes that expose you are wrong and I'm correct concerning Christ.

You will be humbled later.

 

[Runningman]

see this thread where @Fred and I make a bullet proof case for Christ that no one can argue against from Scripture.

https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/doxology-and-invocation.113/

John 17:3 says the Father is the only true God. Same thing in 1 Corinthians 8:6 and Ephesians 4:6.

The grammar in 1 John 5:20 doesn't force the "true God" status be applied to Jesus because in the same verse Jesus isn't called God anyway.

Son = Jesus
of
God = Father

Jesus is the son of God because his Father is God. So the true God in scripture is, once again, always the Father. It wouldn't make sense to say this is Jesus without any precedent, comment, or explanation.

Your "bullet proof case" has more holes in it than swiss cheese now.

 

[Fred]

1 Corinthians 8:6

https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/jesus-is-the-lord-yhwh-in-1-corinthians-10-26-psalm-24-1-cf-deuteronomy-6-4.216/#post-3938

 

[civic]

You will be humbled later.

Jesus humbled me in 1980 and I was His slave/servant ever since. Just like His disciples and Paul- slaves of Christ- He alone is my Master, Lord and Savior. He is the one I bow to as the Bible teaches every man will adventually do before Him.

 

[civic]

https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/jesus-is-the-lord-yhwh-in-1-corinthians-10-26-psalm-24-1-cf-deuteronomy-6-4.216/#post-3938

Yes 1 Cor 8:6 just like with John 17:3 show the So in equal with the Father. . Both Co-Creators of everything that exists and both Co-Givers of Eternal Life which is found only in Them.

 

[Runningman]

Jesus humbled me in 1980 and I was His slave/servant ever since. Just like His disciples and Paul- slaves of Christ- He alone is my Master, Lord and Savior. He is the one I bow to as the Bible teaches every man will adventually do before Him.

I am sure you love Jesus and intend to follow him, but you have a very strong Trinitarian bias and it has blinded you. Philippians 2:10 doesn't mention bowing to Jesus even though you keep saying it does. It says bowing at the name of Jesus. This is a common mistake people make. When I was a Trinitarian I couldn't hear or see anything else either. I was in your shoes, before, defending an idea that doesn't actually exist in Scripture. We tend to take the things we were taught at church and assume it's Scripture, but church is notorious for being liberal with their doctrines. They elevate the Trinity doctrine above the Bible when the Bible doesn't actually address it directly or explicitly.

 

[civic]

I am sure you love Jesus and intend to follow him, but you have a very strong Trinitarian bias and it has blinded you. Philippians 2:10 doesn't mention bowing to Jesus even though you keep saying it does. It says bowing at the name of Jesus. This is a common mistake people make. When I was a Trinitarian I couldn't hear or see anything else either. I was in your shoes, before, defending an idea that doesn't actually exist in Scripture. We tend to take the things we were taught at church and assume it's Scripture, but church is notorious for being liberal with their doctrines. They elevate the Trinity doctrine above the Bible when the Bible doesn't actually address it directly or explicitly.

Is there something wrong with worshipping both the Father and the Son in your opinion ?

Would that make a person who does it not saved ?

 

[Runningman]

Is there something wrong with worshipping both the Father and the Son in your opinion ?

Depends in what sense Jesus as God's Son is being worshipped. Not the best word to use to describe paying homage to someone who isn't God since it suggests deity in English. Better to just describe what happened to Jesus as just being bowed to because Jesus already defined true worship as spirit and truth given to the Father only in John 23-24. So as Christians we really need to pay attention to what Jesus taught and follow it right? I think that's super important. Jesus nor anyone else ever taught anything about worshipping Jesus in spirit and truth.

Would that make a person who does it not saved ?

Good question and I don't dare to set myself up as judge of such things, but as far as my convictions go I believe worshipping Jesus as God would be idolatry and therefore a sin. Jesus is a human and making a human one's personal God is condemned in Scripture. I believe all sins can be pardoned and I don't pretend that I don't have my own sins that I rely on God to pardon. God is merciful and righteous. I think this kind of question you should be asking God to reveal the truth to you about.

 

[civic]

Depends in what sense Jesus as God's Son is being worshipped. Not the best word to use to describe paying homage to someone who isn't God since it suggests deity in English. Better to just describe what happened to Jesus as just being bowed to because Jesus already defined true worship as spirit and truth given to the Father only in John 23-24. So as Christians we really need to pay attention to what Jesus taught and follow it right? I think that's super important. Jesus nor anyone else ever taught anything about worshipping Jesus in spirit and truth.


Good question and I don't dare to set myself up as judge of such things, but as far as my convictions go I believe worshipping Jesus as God would be idolatry and therefore a sin. Jesus is a human and making a human one's personal God is condemned in Scripture. I believe all sins can be pardoned and I don't pretend that I don't have my own sins that I rely on God to pardon. God is merciful and righteous. I think this kind of question you should be asking God to reveal the truth to you about.

It's difficult to read your NT and remove any bias and not be convinced the Apostles and disciples followed Jesus as their Lord/Master and were 100% dedicated to Him as His slaves/servants.

According to your reasoning this to would be "idolatry " correct ?

 

[Runningman]

It's difficult to read your NT and remove any bias and not be convinced the Apostles and disciples followed Jesus as their Lord/Master and were 100% dedicated to Him as His slaves/servants.

According to your reasoning this to would be "idolatry " correct ?

Jesus is a human Lord or Master or teacher because he was ordained by God as such. Not completely different from elders and deacons in the church who shepherd the flock. It's not idolatry to follow them. They are tasked with overseeing the souls of those who belong to them, similar to Jesus in a sense, but Jesus is the direct mediator between God and mankind and is also our high priest. Yes there are indeed ranks in heaven and Jesus is second in command, but the Bible always says God is over Jesus and that God is the Father.

 

[mikesw]

Jesus is a human Lord or Master or teacher because he was ordained by God as such. Not completely different from elders and deacons in the church who shepherd the flock. It's not idolatry to follow them. They are tasked with overseeing the souls of those who belong to them, similar to Jesus in a sense, but Jesus is the direct mediator between God and mankind and is also our high priest. Yes there are indeed ranks in heaven and Jesus is second in command, but the Bible always says God is over Jesus and that God is the Father.

These are pretty unusual ideas. How did you come to diminish from the divine nature of Christ in the Godhead?

 

[Runningman]

These are pretty unusual ideas. How did you come to diminish from the divine nature of Christ in the Godhead?

I will just give you all of the Scriptural references for these "unusual ideas." Everything I wrote was based on Scripture.

Jesus is a human Lord or Master - Luke 1:43
or teacher - Matthew 23:10
because he was ordained by God as such - Acts 2:36
Not completely different from elders and deacons in the church who shepherd the flock. It's not idolatry to follow them. They are tasked with overseeing the souls of those who belong to them - 1 Peter 5:2
similar to Jesus in a sense, - 1 Peter 2:25
but Jesus is the direct mediator between God and mankind - 1 Timothy 2:5
and is also our high priest - Hebrews 4:14
Yes there are indeed ranks in heaven and Jesus is second in command - Ephesians 1:22
but the Bible always says God is over Jesus - 1 Corinthians 11:3
and that God is the Father. - John 17:3, 1 Corinthians 8:6, Ephesians 4:6

 

[mikesw]

I will just give you all of the Scriptural references for these "unusual ideas." Everything I wrote was based on Scripture.

Jesus is a human Lord or Master - Luke 1:43
or teacher - Matthew 23:10
because he was ordained by God as such - Acts 2:36
Not completely different from elders and deacons in the church who shepherd the flock. It's not idolatry to follow them. They are tasked with overseeing the souls of those who belong to them - 1 Peter 5:2
similar to Jesus in a sense, - 1 Peter 2:25
but Jesus is the direct mediator between God and mankind - 1 Timothy 2:5
and is also our high priest - Hebrews 4:14
Yes there are indeed ranks in heaven and Jesus is second in command - Ephesians 1:22
but the Bible always says God is over Jesus - 1 Corinthians 11:3
and that God is the Father. - John 17:3, 1 Corinthians 8:6, Ephesians 4:6

uh. So you disregard the divinity passages to just share some attributes of Jesus.
So you say Jesus, as a mere man, forgave sins people committed against God, and somehow evaded the guilt of his blasphemy?
You have to figure out somehow to overcome all the shortcomings found in Peterlag's efforts to deny Christ's divinity in the Godhead.

 

[Runningman]

uh. So you disregard the divinity passages to just share some attributes of Jesus.
So you say Jesus, as a mere man, forgave sins people committed against God, and somehow evaded the guilt of his blasphemy?
You have to figure out somehow to overcome all the shortcomings found in Peterlag's efforts to deny Christ's divinity in the Godhead.

I believe you are taking it a bit to the extreme. The only options are not that "Jesus is God or else he's a blasphemer because he forgive sins." The Bible plainly says God gave the men, Jesus and most likely the 12 disciples, power to forgive sins.

Matthew 8
6But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house. 7And he arose, and departed to his house. 8But when the multitudes saw it, they marvelled, and glorified God, which had given such power unto men.

 

[mikesw]

I believe you are taking it a bit to the extreme. The only options are not that "Jesus is God or else he's a blasphemer because he forgive sins." The Bible plainly says God gave the men, Jesus and most likely the 12 disciples, power to forgive sins.

Matthew 8
6But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house. 7And he arose, and departed to his house. 8But when the multitudes saw it, they marvelled, and glorified God, which had given such power unto men.

duh. They did not even know him as Messiah, let alone the Son sent from heaven. Maybe you can try harder than Peterlag. He has been the recent unitarianist who ironically has given many reasons why can trust the Triune concept much better now.

 

[Runningman]

duh. They did not even know him as Messiah, let alone the Son sent from heaven. Maybe you can try harder than Peterlag. He has been the recent unitarianist who ironically has given many reasons why can trust the Triune concept much better now.

That point is unrelated to the fact that God gave Jesus the power to forgive sins. That means Jesus didn't inherently have that power.