Who Killed Jesus?

[Cosmo]

God killed Jesus. He did it in the heavenly Tabernacle BEFORE God created anything.
Then, He did it in time AFTER He created heaven, earth, and man.
Salvation is of the LORD.

Are you saying God killed Jesus twice? I understand Jesus dying on the cross, but why in "in the heavenly Tabernacle".

At its core, the Bible teaches that Jesus willingly gave his life on the cross – a selfless act understood by Christians as the ultimate expression of love for humanity. Through his death, Jesus bore mankind’s sins, offering everyone an opportunity for salvation.

 

[Dean]

The cross is His victory. He conquered sin and death. No one took His life from Him, He laid it down freely. Jesus specifically took a humiliating form of public punishment for you willingly. He did so for a reason. The complete and utter misery of the Cross is part of His message. It is His victory.

 

[jeremiah1five]

What verse says that ?

Did you read the verses I quoted in my previous post saying who killed Jesus and who was responsible?

Yes, I did. Each is from the position of men in time. God used wicked men to kill His Son, but it was ordained and controlled by God. God ordered the "hit" and wicked men was used by God to bring His will to fruition.

Acts 2:23
This man was handed over to you by God’s deliberate plan and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross

Acts 4:10,11
Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole…

Acts 5:30
The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.

Acts 7:52
Was there ever a prophet your ancestors did not persecute? They even killed those who predicted the coming of the Righteous One. And now you have betrayed and murdered him

Acts 13:27
For they that dwell at Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not, nor yet the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath day, they have fulfilled them in condemning him

1 Corinthians 2:8-
None of the rulers of this age understood this, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory
_________________

These are all presented from our perspective. Jesus couldn't die by suicide or by accident. God uses sin and sinful men for His purpose and as Sovereign God who not only ordained this death also prophesied it would happen. It is ordained by God because it is necessary, and it already occurred before God created heaven, earth, and man.

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from [before] the foundation (creation) of the world. Revelation 13:8.

When God contemplated creating man with the added goal of bringing man into Himself and into eternity it had to come about through a particular plan. Not only was His Son slain before He created anything, there were other particulars that were part of His plan for man.

He was foreordained before God creation:
20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
1 Peter 1:20.

His elect were chosen in Him before creation:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Ephesians 1:4.

A kingdom (Christ Himself) was prepared for His elect before creation:
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: Matthew 25:34.

There is correlation between His blood (death) and the blood (death) of every prophet He sent before creation:
50 That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation; Luke 11:50.

Additional "works" were prepared in Him before creation:
3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. Hebrews 4:3.

The Son suffered before creation:
26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. Hebrews 9:26.

He was loved by the Father before creation:
24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world. John 17:24.

God's plan was ordained to be kept secret from men before creation:
35 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world., Matthew 13:35.

The names of His elect were a separate group that were distinguished from everyone else before creation:
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Revelation 13: 8.

There is a reason God commanded Moses to build a Tabernacle 'fashioned' after the heavenly Tabernacle. Because for one, what was to take place in the earthly Tabernacle was to be exactly what took place in the heavenly Tabernacle and these passages above reveal some of those things God did in the heavenly Tabernacle before creating heaven, earth, and man. And it all centered around a lamb that God slew in the heavenly Tabernacle before He created anything. That lamb was His Son. I cannot explain the exact nature of this act of God in Himself in Trinity towards His Son, the Second Person, but a lamb was slain, and it wasn't an animal. Everything was to follow the pattern God set in motion in Himself before creation that was important to Him for His covenant people to perform on earth in the earthly Tabernacle. And if God slew His Son described as a lamb before creation, then in keeping with that heavenly pattern God did it in time on earth in the same way. Smite the Shepherd and the flock will flee? There may have been an angel sent by God to stay the hand of Abraham holding a knife before he brought it down upon his son, Isaac, but in the heavenly Tabernacle there was no one to stay the Hand of the Father before God created heaven, earth, and man.

4 Surely he hath borne our griefs,
And carried our sorrows:
Yet we did esteem him stricken,
Smitten of God, and afflicted.
Isaiah 53:4.

There was darkness in the land for three hours as His Son hung on His cross. This was to cover the act(s) of God in the moments as He slew His Son for this death was not to be witnessed, not for men's eyes. Although Jesus was beaten, scourged, His hair plucked from His body, nails pounded into His wrists and feet, and a crown of thorns pushed violently upon His skull, He endured all of it until darkness enveloped the land and as soon as it lifted, He died, smitten of God and afflicted. God was behind this death. He may have used wicked men to accomplish His will, but it was preordained, and it was for a heavenly purpose. This earthly death followed the pattern of the heavenly death, and we know there were no men attending the heavenly death before creation. God was responsible and accountable for the death of His Son.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Are you saying God killed Jesus twice? I understand Jesus dying on the cross, but why in "in the heavenly Tabernacle".

From God's perspective of the eternal NOW everything has been said and done, time has ended, and we are all with God right now.
But from the perspective of man in time we move and have our being going forward in a process of time.
Maybe He didn't sacrifice His Son twice. Only once. From His perspective.

At its core, the Bible teaches that Jesus willingly gave his life on the cross – a selfless act understood by Christians as the ultimate expression of love for humanity. Through his death, Jesus bore mankind’s sins, offering everyone an opportunity for salvation.

Jesus Christ didn't offer Himself for the love of humanity. The people that He died for are those in covenant with God - the children of Israel. For whom did the high priest under the Law offer sacrifices for and offer prayers? Is there any passage he left Israel, went to Gentiles, and offered sacrifices for non-Hebrew Gentiles? There is no record of him doing such a thing. Saul said:

4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. Gal. 4:3–5.

If God "loved" the actual world of people, then this would mean all the world would be saved - everyone.
Does Scripture teach this?

 

[civic]

Yes, I did. Each is from the position of men in time. God used wicked men to kill His Son, but it was ordained and controlled by God. God ordered the "hit" and wicked men was used by God to bring His will to fruition.

Acts 2:23
This man was handed over to you by God’s deliberate plan and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross

Acts 4:10,11
Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole…

Acts 5:30
The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.

Acts 7:52
Was there ever a prophet your ancestors did not persecute? They even killed those who predicted the coming of the Righteous One. And now you have betrayed and murdered him

Acts 13:27
For they that dwell at Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not, nor yet the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath day, they have fulfilled them in condemning him

1 Corinthians 2:8-
None of the rulers of this age understood this, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory
_________________

These are all presented from our perspective. Jesus couldn't die by suicide or by accident. God uses sin and sinful men for His purpose and as Sovereign God who not only ordained this death also prophesied it would happen. It is ordained by God because it is necessary, and it already occurred before God created heaven, earth, and man.

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from [before] the foundation (creation) of the world. Revelation 13:8.

When God contemplated creating man with the added goal of bringing man into Himself and into eternity it had to come about through a particular plan. Not only was His Son slain before He created anything, there were other particulars that were part of His plan for man.

He was foreordained before God creation:
20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
1 Peter 1:20.

His elect were chosen in Him before creation:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Ephesians 1:4.

A kingdom (Christ Himself) was prepared for His elect before creation:
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: Matthew 25:34.

There is correlation between His blood (death) and the blood (death) of every prophet He sent before creation:
50 That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation; Luke 11:50.

Additional "works" were prepared in Him before creation:
3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. Hebrews 4:3.

The Son suffered before creation:
26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. Hebrews 9:26.

He was loved by the Father before creation:
24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world. John 17:24.

God's plan was ordained to be kept secret from men before creation:
35 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world., Matthew 13:35.

The names of His elect were a separate group that were distinguished from everyone else before creation:
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Revelation 13: 8.

There is a reason God commanded Moses to build a Tabernacle 'fashioned' after the heavenly Tabernacle. Because for one, what was to take place in the earthly Tabernacle was to be exactly what took place in the heavenly Tabernacle and these passages above reveal some of those things God did in the heavenly Tabernacle before creating heaven, earth, and man. And it all centered around a lamb that God slew in the heavenly Tabernacle before He created anything. That lamb was His Son. I cannot explain the exact nature of this act of God in Himself in Trinity towards His Son, the Second Person, but a lamb was slain, and it wasn't an animal. Everything was to follow the pattern God set in motion in Himself before creation that was important to Him for His covenant people to perform on earth in the earthly Tabernacle. And if God slew His Son described as a lamb before creation, then in keeping with that heavenly pattern God did it in time on earth in the same way. Smite the Shepherd and the flock will flee? There may have been an angel sent by God to stay the hand of Abraham holding a knife before he brought it down upon his son, Isaac, but in the heavenly Tabernacle there was no one to stay the Hand of the Father before God created heaven, earth, and man.

4 Surely he hath borne our griefs,
And carried our sorrows:
Yet we did esteem him stricken,
Smitten of God, and afflicted.
Isaiah 53:4.

There was darkness in the land for three hours as His Son hung on His cross. This was to cover the act(s) of God in the moments as He slew His Son for this death was not to be witnessed, not for men's eyes. Although Jesus was beaten, scourged, His hair plucked from His body, nails pounded into His wrists and feet, and a crown of thorns pushed violently upon His skull, He endured all of it until darkness enveloped the land and as soon as it lifted, He died, smitten of God and afflicted. God was behind this death. He may have used wicked men to accomplish His will, but it was preordained, and it was for a heavenly purpose. This earthly death followed the pattern of the heavenly death, and we know there were no men attending the heavenly death before creation. God was responsible and accountable for the death of His Son.

Nowhere does God say He killed His Son. And Is 53:4 says. WE CONSIDERED HIM SMITTEN- Not God smote Him.

 

[101G]

Isaiah 53:1 "Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?" Isaiah 53:2 "For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him." Isaiah 53:3 "He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not." Isaiah 53:4 "Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted." Isaiah 53:5 "But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed."

stricken: H5060 נָגַע naga` (naw-gah') v.
1. (properly) to touch.
2. to lay the hand upon (for any purpose).
3. (by euphemism) to lie with a woman.
4. (by implication) to reach.
5. (figuratively) to arrive, acquire.
6. (violently) to strike a blow (i.e. punish, defeat, destroy, etc.).
[a primitive root]
KJV: beat, (X be able to) bring (down), cast, come (nigh), draw near (nigh), get up, happen, join, near, plague, reach (up), smite, strike, touch.

Wounded: H2490 חָלַל chalal (chaw-lal') v.
1. (properly) to bore.
2. (by implication) to wound, to dissolve.
3. (figuratively) to profane (a person, place or thing).
4. (thus) to break (one's word).
5. (also) to begin (as if by an "opening wedge").
6. (denom., from H2485) to play (the flute).
[a primitive root]
KJV: begin (X men began), defile, X break, defile, X eat (as common things), X first, X gather the grape thereof, X take inheritance, pipe, player on instruments, pollute, (cast as) profane (self), prostitute, slay (slain), sorrow, stain, wound.

Zechariah 12:10 "And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn."

Pierced,: H1856 דָּקַר daqar (daw-kar') v.
1. to stab.
2. (by analogy) to starve.
3. (figuratively) to revile.
[a primitive root]
KJV: pierce, strike (thrust) through, wound.

none of these ... "Physical" ....... actions killed the Lord Jesus. but a principality, a POWER did. John 10:14 "I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine." John 10:15 "As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep." John 10:16 "And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd." John 10:17 "Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again." John 10:18 "No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father."

so, what killed the LIFE of the Lord Jesus ..... IN this world? as said a a principality, a POWER did, the answer, LOVE. this was a volunteer death. see (John 3:16).

Romans 5:7 "For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die."

Ephesians 5:2 "And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour."

1 John 3:16 "Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren."

101G.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Nowhere does God say He killed His Son. And Is 53:4 says. WE CONSIDERED HIM SMITTEN- Not God smote Him.

4 Surely he hath borne our griefs,
And carried our sorrows:
Yet we did esteem him stricken,
Smitten of God, and afflicted.
Isaiah 53:4.

Here the word is an adjective "nākâ" and it is defined by Strong as: a primitive root; to strike (lightly or severely, literal or figurative.)

As you can see it refers to God 'striking' this "man of sorrows acquainted with grief." In a following verse:

5 But he was wounded for our transgressions,
He was bruised for our iniquities:
The chastisement of our peace was upon him;
And with his stripes we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray;
We have turned every one to his own way;
And the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
Isaiah 53:5–6.

Still referring to this "man of sorrows" we see the verse saying it was God that "laid on Him the iniquity of us all" and is a direct mention that God did this which resulted in the death of the "man of sorrows."
Foundationally, Scripture introduces that sin is death as first declared by God in Genesis 2 in the Garden:

17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. Gen. 2:17.

Sin and death are used interchangeably in Scripture just as death is the result of sin and sin results in death. But take notice who has laid death upon this "man of sorrows." It is God Himself who does this. It is not enough for the scene to be "I am Jesus the Christ, and I am dying for the sin of God's elect." No, that is not enough. Someone must actively apply the sin of God's elect upon this "man of sorrows" and that person is God the Father. It was actively made to happen during substitutionary sacrifice as preordained by God and sufficient to the cause at hand, and that is, that in order to save or redeem sinful man someone would have to die in his stead, and that someone was this "man of sorrows" of whom God laid on Him the iniquity "of us all."

The word "nākâ" is translated variously as:

smite 348 times
slay 92
kill 20
beat 9
slaughter 5
stricken 3
given 3
wounded 3
strike 2
stripes 2
miscellaneous translations: 13 times for a total of 500 times this word is found in Scripture.
And while the context determines its definition, slay, kill, and slaughter amounts to 117 times it is used for death. And when we read Isaiah it is God who has "laid on Him the iniquity of us all" which also means that by laying on us the iniquity or sin of God's elect, when this is done by God the Father it resulted in the death of the man of sorrows, which if God did not actively do would render the elect still liable to their own sin resulting in eternal separation from God. But this is not the case for as a doctrine, substitutionary sacrifice is clearly in view here and the reason of the death of the man of sorrows is directly tied to God who "laid on Him the iniquity/death" of us all.

 

[civic]

4 Surely he hath borne our griefs,
And carried our sorrows:
Yet we did esteem him stricken,
Smitten of God, and afflicted.
Isaiah 53:4.

Here the word is an adjective "nākâ" and it is defined by Strong as: a primitive root; to strike (lightly or severely, literal or figurative.)

As you can see it refers to God 'striking' this "man of sorrows acquainted with grief." In a following verse:

5 But he was wounded for our transgressions,
He was bruised for our iniquities:
The chastisement of our peace was upon him;
And with his stripes we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray;
We have turned every one to his own way;
And the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
Isaiah 53:5–6.

Still referring to this "man of sorrows" we see the verse saying it was God that "laid on Him the iniquity of us all" and is a direct mention that God did this which resulted in the death of the "man of sorrows."
Foundationally, Scripture introduces that sin is death as first declared by God in Genesis 2 in the Garden:

17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. Gen. 2:17.

Sin and death are used interchangeably in Scripture just as death is the result of sin and sin results in death. But take notice who has laid death upon this "man of sorrows." It is God Himself who does this. It is not enough for the scene to be "I am Jesus the Christ, and I am dying for the sin of God's elect." No, that is not enough. Someone must actively apply the sin of God's elect upon this "man of sorrows" and that person is God the Father. It was actively made to happen during substitutionary sacrifice as preordained by God and sufficient to the cause at hand, and that is, that in order to save or redeem sinful man someone would have to die in his stead, and that someone was this "man of sorrows" of whom God laid on Him the iniquity "of us all."

The word "nākâ" is translated variously as:

smite 348 times
slay 92
kill 20
beat 9
slaughter 5
stricken 3
given 3
wounded 3
strike 2
stripes 2
miscellaneous translations: 13 times for a total of 500 times this word is found in Scripture.
And while the context determines its definition, slay, kill, and slaughter amounts to 117 times it is used for death. And when we read Isaiah it is God who has "laid on Him the iniquity of us all" which also means that by laying on us the iniquity or sin of God's elect, when this is done by God the Father it resulted in the death of the man of sorrows, which if God did not actively do would render the elect still liable to their own sin resulting in eternal separation from God. But this is not the case for as a doctrine, substitutionary sacrifice is clearly in view here and the reason of the death of the man of sorrows is directly tied to God who "laid on Him the iniquity/death" of us all.

Notice it says WE, not God below

Surely he hath borne our griefs,
And carried our sorrows:
Yet we did esteem him stricken,
Smitten of God, and afflicted.
Isaiah 53:4

 

[jeremiah1five]

Notice it says WE, not God below

Surely he hath borne our griefs,
And carried our sorrows:
Yet we did esteem him stricken,
Smitten of God, and afflicted.
Isaiah 53:4

Yes, that is our view of Him. We see Him as stricken and smitten of God and this would be our understanding, an understanding without which such acknowledgement could not lead to our salvation.