Where is the love in Calvinism?

[Theophilus]

And I responded in kind. Perhaps it should say "Where is the reading comprehension in "free will" folks?"

Dunno...it's a thought.

There's a pretty wide gap between love and reading comprehension wouldn't you say. I'm glad God loved us enough to save us by dying on a cross rather than improving our reading skills. I'm also quite sure that if you look long and hard enough you can find Folks that do not hold to Calvinism that can actually read and write volumes.

Here's a couple.

Arminian theologian Roger Olson represents both a small and also a very large theological tribe. The large group comprises American evangelicals and mainliners for whom common-sense Arminianism is the default theological position. These Christians think it is obvious that a loving God would never send people to hell without giving them a fair shot at salvation (if indeed God sends anyone to hell at all). The smaller group, today at least, comprises principled Arminians, defenders of the theological tradition of Jacobus Arminius, John Wesley, and Charles Finney.

I thoroughly enjoyed Roger Olson Book Against Calvinism. Here's a taste of it.

Perhaps the most serious complaint one may level against Calvinism concerns its portrayal of God himself. Biblical revelation clearly shows God to be loving, gracious, personal, responsive, caring, just, impartial, desiring life for everyone, and a hater of sin. Unfortunately, Calvinism, in nearly every case, projects a God who contradicts these characteristics. God’s love is selective, God’s salvific grace is either completely lacking (for the non-elect) or irresistible in the case of the elect.

And God’s transcendence is so amplified with its distorted view of divine sovereignty worked out through a comprehensive impersonal decree that there is little room for genuine interaction between persons and God. Where God requires believers to love their enemies, God instead is permitted to be a hater of his enemies. Where the Bible requires Jesus’s followers to be impartial in their dealings with men, God instead is demonstrably partial in his unilaterally and unconditionally selecting some for salvation while damning the rest to hell when he could, if he chose, save all. While the Bible says that God “desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth” (1 Tim 2:4), God by his secret and eternal decree actually does not desire all me to be saved, for if he did he could easily ensure it through his decree.

Where the Bible clearly reveals God to be a hater of sin, God is seen to be the author and instigator of every sin manifested in history. (Recall that God’s sovereignty is such that he, through his decree, is responsible for “everything that happens” [Sproul, Grudem, etc.].) Reflecting on Calvinism’s difficulties in reconciling God as a God who is good, just, and love with Calvinism’s theistic determinism, Fischer says this:

In what sense was God good if he had done something like creating people so he could damn them? And in what sense was God just if he had done something like punishing people eternally for sins he made certain they would commit? How are those in hell merely getting what they deserve when God ordained that they commit their sins? How can humans be held responsible for their sins when God is the ultimate cause of their sins? . . . And how can we say that God loves the whole world when he created a good portion of it to go to hell?

 

[Rockson]

Right about here. I could post multiple other men who loved God, loved the saints, and were Calvinists.

Sure I can accept that perhaps many Calvinists love God. What's going on internally within each person many times is something only God knows and we need to be careful about judging. I will say this though as Rom 10:2 states some can have a zeal for God but not according to knowledge. Others can have a love of theolog and debate and argue positions and not even have relationship with God. As I stated I believe there are some or many Calvinists that are born of God but if they truly are (and some might argue this is just my opinion) if they are though I'd say there would be something scratching down on the inside of one's spirit God trying to get their attention saying that Calvinism is not of him. When one has the love of God in them they just KNOW things especially about the character of God. His Spirit bears witness with our spirit that regardless of what a Calvinist says the Spirit gives one a red light deep down in one's spirit saying NO, That's wrong and is error" Sure my statement saying that may come across as presumptuous but I'll stand by it. I do believe this is true.

Those of you saying we, or the theology we ascribe too, are unloving need to repent.

I would never be quick to say just because one is a Calvinist that makes them an unloving person. If the theology they're putting forth however DOES NOT truly reflect the character of God revealed in the scriptures are you suggesting one should never have the courage to point that out? If indeed Calvinistic thinking truly does diminish the image of the true character of God who would really be the one who needs to repent? The one seeking to help others think correctly and get them on the right track so giving them peace, or the one who is putting out error? I'd say the one who is putting out error. They can be loving and well meaning but can be wrong all the same.

 

[civic]

Sure I can accept that perhaps many Calvinists love God. What's going on internally within each person many times is something only God knows and we need to be careful about judging. I will say this though as Rom 10:2 states some can have a zeal for God but not according to knowledge. Others can have a love of theolog and debate and argue positions and not even have relationship with God. As I stated I believe there are some or many Calvinists that are born of God but if they truly are (and some might argue this is just my opinion) if they are though I'd say there would be something scratching down on the inside of one's spirit God trying to get their attention saying that Calvinism is not of him. When one has the love of God in them they just KNOW things especially about the character of God. His Spirit bears witness with our spirit that regardless of what a Calvinist says the Spirit gives one a red light deep down in one's spirit saying NO, That's wrong and is error" Sure my statement saying that may come across as presumptuous but I'll stand by it. I do believe this is true.

I would never be quick to say just because one is a Calvinist that makes them an unloving person. If the theology they're putting forth however DOES NOT truly reflect the character of God revealed in the scriptures are you suggesting one should never have the courage to point that out? If indeed Calvinistic thinking truly does diminish the image of the true character of God who would really be the one who needs to repent? The one seeking to help others think correctly and get them on the right track so giving them peace, or the one who is putting out error? I'd say the one who is putting out error. They can be loving and well meaning but can be wrong all the same.

Here is the thing and the older I get the more I go back to this simple idea about God.

Jesus said the O.T. is all about Him. He is the focal point. Eternal Life is found in Him, He is the Savior of the world, the Redeemer and the One who made atonement for sin.

It is Christ who reveals God, who takes the mystery out of who is God and what is God like. The words and deeds of Jesus are the very words and deeds of the Father. He said whatever I hear and see the Father doing is what I'm doing and saying. My Father is working and I'm working. The works I do are His works.

So all a person has to do is read Jesus words and interaction with people to know what God is like and what He thinks. He said to love our enemies and pray for them, forgive them. Its what Jesus Himself did. God doesn't ask us to be or act any differently than He acted and treated people. Jesus loved the world and gave His life for the sins of the world. And we are to be salt and light sharing the gospel and message of hope with a lost and dying world.

Jesus said to love God with all our minds, hearts, soul and strength and our neighbor as we do ourselves. The golden rule.

What does this love look like ?

If I speak in the tongues[a] of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast,[b] but do not have love, I gain nothing.

4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

8 Love never fails.

 

[Diserner]

So all a person has to do is read Jesus words and interaction with people to know what God is like and what He thinks.

Let's not be selective and just pick the "be nice" feel good passages.

Jesus also said things like:

`But bring here those enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, and slay them before me.'" (Lk. 19:27 NKJ)

That's love talking.

"But the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Matt. 8:12 NKJ)

That's love talking.

4 "And I say to you, My friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do.
5 "But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear Him who, after He has killed, has power to cast into hell; yes, I say to you, fear Him! (Lk. 12:4-5 NKJ)

That's love talking.

34 "And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him.
35 "So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses." (Matt. 18:34-35 NKJ)

That's love talking.

15 "So they cast him out of the vineyard and killed him. Therefore what will the owner of the vineyard do to them?
16 "He will come and destroy those vinedressers and give the vineyard to others." And when they heard it they said, "Certainly not!" (Lk. 20:15-16 NKJ)

That's love talking.

25 "Agree with your adversary quickly, while you are on the way with him, lest your adversary deliver you to the judge, the judge hand you over to the officer, and you be thrown into prison.
26 "Assuredly, I say to you, you will by no means get out of there till you have paid the last penny. (Matt. 5:25-26 NKJ)

That's love talking.

28 "But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
29 "If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell. (Matt. 5:28-29 NKJ)

That's love talking.

Let's not water Jesus down to a love hippy making daisy chains all day long singing Kumbaya and making peace signs.

We will never fear that Jesus nor fall at his feet as dead.

He sweat drops of blood pleading for another way other than bearing the suffering of the punishment of our sins.

Let's honor and respect that for what it is, instead of spitting on Jesus' sacrifice and treating his Blood with contempt.

One day every one who rejects his sacrifice will be tormented day and night in his presence forever and ever.

 

[civic]

Let's not be selective and just pick the "be nice" feel good passages.

Jesus also said things like:

`But bring here those enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, and slay them before me.'" (Lk. 19:27 NKJ)

That's love talking.

"But the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Matt. 8:12 NKJ)

That's love talking.

4 "And I say to you, My friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do.
5 "But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear Him who, after He has killed, has power to cast into hell; yes, I say to you, fear Him! (Lk. 12:4-5 NKJ)

That's love talking.

34 "And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him.
35 "So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses." (Matt. 18:34-35 NKJ)

That's love talking.

15 "So they cast him out of the vineyard and killed him. Therefore what will the owner of the vineyard do to them?
16 "He will come and destroy those vinedressers and give the vineyard to others." And when they heard it they said, "Certainly not!" (Lk. 20:15-16 NKJ)

That's love talking.

25 "Agree with your adversary quickly, while you are on the way with him, lest your adversary deliver you to the judge, the judge hand you over to the officer, and you be thrown into prison.
26 "Assuredly, I say to you, you will by no means get out of there till you have paid the last penny. (Matt. 5:25-26 NKJ)

That's love talking.

28 "But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
29 "If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell. (Matt. 5:28-29 NKJ)

That's love talking.

Let's not water Jesus down to a love hippy making daisy chains all day long singing Kumbaya and making peace signs.

We will never fear that Jesus nor fall at his feet as dead.

He sweat drops of blood pleading for another way other than bearing the suffering of the punishment of our sins.

Let's honor and respect that for what it is, instead of spitting on Jesus' sacrifice and treating his Blood with contempt.

One day every one who rejects his sacrifice will be tormented day and night in his presence forever and ever.

That is the final Judgement reserved for those who go to their graves rejecting the gospel. They rejected His love and sacrifice for their sins so thats on them. Nothing unloving about their final destination that they will be left with since that was their decision and they are just getting what they wanted all along to be without Christ for eternity. If you don't want Him here then He will give you what you want there.

No one will go to hell kicking and screaming against their will, it was their choice. They made their bed and now they are laying in it for all eternity.

God does not force His love on anyone, nor coerce them, that would be unloving. We have the freedom to choose to love God in return or reject His love.

hope this helps !!!

 

[Overjoyed]

That is the final Judgement reserved for those who go to their graves rejecting the gospel. They rejected His love and sacrifice for their sins so thats on them. Nothing unloving about their final destination that they will be left with since that was their decision and they are just getting what they wanted all along to be without Christ for eternity. If you don't want Him here then He will give you what you want there.

No one will go to hell kicking and screaming against their will, it was their choice. They made their bed and now they are laying in it for all eternity.

God does not force His love on anyone, nor coerce them, that would be unloving. We have the freedom to choose to love God in return or reject His love.

hope this helps !!!

If what we call love doesn’t take us beyond ourselves, it is not really love. If we have the idea that love is characterized as cautious, wise, sensible, shrewd, and never taken to extremes, we have missed the true meaning.
—OSWALD CHAMBERS

God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in him.
—1 JOHN 4:16

1 John 4:16 Is one of my favorite scriptures, It tells us that “God is love.” It doesn’t say that He loves, although we know that God does love us with unconditional love. This verse says that God is love. This is His nature, who He is. He will never be anything other than love because to be so would be contrary to His own nature.

Love is such a loose term these days that we often don’t know what it really means. It can refer to anything from a vague impression to the most sincere depth of emotion and commitment. We live in a time with a confused concept of love. We have grown up with fairy-tale love and false expectations and dreams. We have picked up mixed messages of love. Take Calvinism for instance.

Calvinism is founded upon the premise that God does not love everyone, is not merciful to all, does not want all to be saved, but in fact is pleased to damn billions whom, by sovereign regeneration, He could have saved had He so desired. If that is the God of the Bible, Calvinism is true. If that is not the God of the Bible, who is “love” (1 John 4:8), Calvinism is false. The central issue is God’s love and character in relation to mankind, as presented in Scripture.

That’s why it is so important to have our minds renewed by God’s Word. We need to be asking ourselves, “What does the Bible say about love?”

Let the renewing begin...

 

[civic]

If what we call love doesn’t take us beyond ourselves, it is not really love. If we have the idea that love is characterized as cautious, wise, sensible, shrewd, and never taken to extremes, we have missed the true meaning.
—OSWALD CHAMBERS

God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in him.
—1 JOHN 4:16

1 John 4:16 Is one of my favorite scriptures, It tells us that “God is love.” It doesn’t say that He loves, although we know that God does love us with unconditional love. This verse says that God is love. This is His nature, who He is. He will never be anything other than love because to be so would be contrary to His own nature.

Love is such a loose term these days that we often don’t know what it really means. It can refer to anything from a vague impression to the most sincere depth of emotion and commitment. We live in a time with a confused concept of love. We have grown up with fairy-tale love and false expectations and dreams. We have picked up mixed messages of love. Take Calvinism for instance.

Calvinism is founded upon the premise that God does not love everyone, is not merciful to all, does not want all to be saved, but in fact is pleased to damn billions whom, by sovereign regeneration, He could have saved had He so desired. If that is the God of the Bible, Calvinism is true. If that is not the God of the Bible, who is “love” (1 John 4:8), Calvinism is false. The central issue is God’s love and character in relation to mankind, as presented in Scripture.

That’s why it is so important to have our minds renewed by God’s Word. We need to be asking ourselves, “What does the Bible say about love?”

Let the renewing begin...

He left God is love a primary attribute of God out of his institutes. And the WCF 3 below is unloving by definition.

CHAPTER 3​

Of God’s Eternal Decree​

1. God from all eternity did by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby neither is God the author of sin; nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.
2. Although God knows whatsoever may or can come to pass, upon all supposed conditions; yet hath He not decreed any thing because He foresaw it as future, as that which would come to pass, upon such conditions.
3. By the decree of God, for the manifestation of His glory, some men and angels are predestinated unto everlasting life, and others foreordained to everlasting death.
4. These angels and men, thus predestinated and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed; and their number is so certain and definite that it can not be either increased or diminished.
5. Those of mankind that are predestinated unto life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to His eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of His will, hath chosen in Christ, unto everlasting glory, out of His free grace and love alone, without any foresight of faith or good works, or perseverance in either of them, or any other thing in the creature, as conditions, or causes moving Him thereunto; and all to the praise of His glorious grace.
6. As God hath appointed the elect unto glory, so hath He, by the eternal and most free purpose of His will, foreordained all the means thereunto. Wherefore they who are elected being fallen in Adam are redeemed by Christ, are effectually called unto faith in Christ by His Spirit working in due season; are justified, adopted, sanctified, and kept by His power through faith unto salvation. Neither are any other redeemed by Christ, effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only.
7. The rest of mankind, God was pleased, according to the unsearchable counsel of His own will, whereby He extendeth or withholdeth mercy as He pleaseth, for the glory of His sovereign power over His creatures, to pass by, and to ordain them to dishonor and wrath for their sin, to the praise of His glorious justice.
8. The doctrine of this high mystery of predestination is to be handled with special prudence and care, that men attending to the will of God revealed in His Word, and yielding obedience thereunto, may, from the certainty of their effectual vocation, be assured of their eternal election. So shall this doctrine afford matter of praise, reverence, and admiration of God; and of humility, diligence, and abundant consolation to all that sincerely obey the gospel.

 

[Overjoyed]

He left God is love a primary attribute of God out of his institutes.

Who Calvin? If so then the student is like the teacher because every forum that I've been on Calvinists seem awfully antagonistic and not showing a lot of love. Just my opinion. But I'm pretty sure I'm probably not the only one that has noticed this. We're called to love them regardless.

 

[civic]

Who Calvin? If so then the student is like the teacher because every forum that I've been on Calvinists seem awfully antagonistic and not showing a lot of love. Just my opinion. But I'm pretty sure I'm probably not the only one that has noticed this. We're called to love them regardless.

Yes calvin never mentioned God is love in his institutes and mysteriously/intentionally left that out for some unknown or known reason.

 

[Diserner]

Who Calvin? If so then the student is like the teacher because every forum that I've been on Calvinists seem awfully antagonistic and not showing a lot of love. Just my opinion. But I'm pretty sure I'm probably not the only one that has noticed this. We're called to love them regardless.

Just to be fair here, I've met plenty of unloving non-Calvinists, probably even more.

We need to be a bit more cautious and fair than to judge doctrines solely by how the proponents act.

Many Christians have done evil things over the centuries and we don't judge the Christian message by that.

I think we should stick with just being critical of the doctrines and not the people espousing them, as tempting as that can be.

I personally don't think Calvinism bears good fruit, but a Calvinist can bear good fruit if they don't act on their beliefs.

 

[S.T.Ranger]

Esau and Pharaoh were individuals here, in fact you yourself point out that a "nation" can't consider itself salvifically elect.

People try to defend OSAS in 10 and 11 by saying the branches are "groups" and not individuals as well, it just doesn't work, they are individual branches, peoples and destinies.

Being neither a Calvinist nor an Arminian, and seeing errors in both camps that tend to end in an exaggeration of doctrine/s to their detriment, I would like to ask a few questions. This is not directed at the OP of the thread (or this post), and I welcome any comments.

1. Since our ultimate question in the thread concerns the love of God, which itself is expressed in the Gospel of Jesus Christ, the first question to answer would be, elect or no—was anyone born again in the Old Testament?

2. In Romans 11, what is the Tree referring to?


God bless.

 

[civic]

Being neither a Calvinist nor an Arminian, and seeing errors in both camps that tend to end in an exaggeration of doctrine/s to their detriment, I would like to ask a few questions. This is not directed at the OP of the thread (or this post), and I welcome any comments.

1. Since our ultimate question in the thread concerns the love of God, which itself is expressed in the Gospel of Jesus Christ, the first question to answer would be, elect or no—was anyone born again in the Old Testament?

2. In Romans 11, what is the Tree referring to?


God bless.

Welcome brother !!!

 

[Diserner]

Good questions.

1. Since our ultimate question in the thread concerns the love of God, which itself is expressed in the Gospel of Jesus Christ, the first question to answer would be, elect or no—was anyone born again in the Old Testament?

Most people seem to think saved but not spiritually reborn.

This seems to make sense since the Resurrection seemed to produce a new grace in time, and we see a dramatic before and after for the Apostles.

2. In Romans 11, what is the Tree referring to?

The spiritually saved, those grafted into Christ, both before and after the Cross.

They experienced a form of spiritual life, a covering of sin, and an afterlife in paradise with God.

 

[S.T.Ranger]

Good questions.



Most people seem to think saved but not spiritually reborn.

I would agree with that, and I would like to believe "most people" did, lol.

I believe men and women were saved in the Old Testament by being declared justified. It could be viewed as the "reservation" for the salvation that would be bestowed by Christ through His death in the stead of the sinner (which is the apt title of every Old Testament Saint that died prior to the Cross. Though justified, they died awaiting eternal justification that is associated with the sinner having their sins forgiven through Christ:

Romans 3:23-26
King James Version

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.


I hold to the view that when men and women died in the Old Testament, they went to Sheol/Hades, rather than Heaven. Being just or unjust determined which part of Hades, Abraham's Bosom, or torment (Luke 16:19-31). I would view those in Abraham's Bosom as "saved" but still awaiting the Atonement.

So among men in the Old Testament were the saved/just and the unsaved/unjust.

Among men today (and I use "men" generally, speaking of men and women) are the saved/regenerate and the lost/unregenerate.

And, just to throw in something controversial, lol, I believe that among the lost God is still making declarations of righteousness among them. In other words, someone lost may be declared just in a temporal sense (concerning daily conversation) as men were in the Old Testament.

This seems to make sense since the Resurrection seemed to produce a new grace in time, and we see a dramatic before and after for the Apostles.

I view the Day of Pentecost as the the day God sent the Comforter, who then began indwelling believers in eternal union, contrasted with the filling of the Spirit (The Spirit's Old Testament ministry among men, still going on today):

John 14:15-23
King James Version

15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?

23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Christ distinguishes between the Holy Ghost being with them—and being in them.

If we look at Acts 1:4-5, we see that the disciples were not yet "baptized with the Holy Ghost". While there are those that view the Baptism with the Holy Ghost as a secondary event to salvation, and that it is a bestowal of a "second blessing", I take the view that the Baptism with the Holy Ghost is in fact salvation itself. We are baptized into Christ and indwelt by the Spirit of God in Eternal Union. In Matthew 3:11-12 we see John prophesy of the day when men would be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

The spiritually saved, those grafted into Christ, both before and after the Cross.

They experienced a form of spiritual life, a covering of sin, and an afterlife in paradise with God.

I do not view men as being "in Christ" until Pentecost. It is an important question to answer, though, if we want to fully understand Eternal Salvation.

Read John 14:15-23 again and ask yourself, "Were the disciples in Christ at this time?" The answer is clearly—no. Were they saved? Sure. Were they eternally redeemed?

No.

Hebrews 9:12
King James Version

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.


And this, I believe, is one of the biggest issues that divides believers, and has done so for centuries. We must understand the difference between being "saved" in an Old Testament sense and being eternally redeemed by the Death of Christ. The difference between Temporal Justification and Eternal Justification. And as a final note on that point (Justification), I'll give one more reference:

Luke 18:14
I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

Was this man eternally justified by the Blood of Christ? Not likely, seeing that 1) we don't see a proclamation of faith in Christ, 2) it suggests salvation by works, and 3), Christi had not yet died.

He was justified temporally speaking, concerning his daily conversation, but Eternal Justification awaited the Cross of Christ. Eternal Salvation awaited the Cross of Christ.

That men are now being baptized into Christ is, in my view—Good News indeed.


God bless.

 

[Diserner]

Read John 14:15-23 again and ask yourself, "Were the disciples in Christ at this time?" The answer is clearly—no. Were they saved? Sure. Were they eternally redeemed?

No.

Very good thoughts and I mostly agree but I'd say to give this one even more thought.

3 You are clean already, by means of the word that I have spoken to you.
4 Remain in me, as I in you. As a branch cannot bear fruit all by itself, unless it remains part of the vine, neither can you unless you remain in me. (Jn. 15:3-4 NJB)

To remain—is to stay in a condition already met.

 

[Overjoyed]

Just to be fair here, I've met plenty of unloving non-Calvinists, probably even more.

We need to be a bit more cautious and fair than to judge doctrines solely by how the proponents act.

Many Christians have done evil things over the centuries and we don't judge the Christian message by that.

I think we should stick with just being critical of the doctrines and not the people espousing them, as tempting as that can be.

I personally don't think Calvinism bears good fruit, but a Calvinist can bear good fruit if they don't act on their beliefs.

I'm not so sure about this one. And I'm not exactly sure who "we" is. But if it's the human race that population planet earth at the present, then there's billions of people that judge Christianity.

Many Christians have done evil things over the centuries and we don't judge the Christian message by that.

Actually Christophobia Is running rampant. The LBGT Just might have a little animosity towards Christianity. What's the Bible say about gays? I'm pretty sure the gay community would be a little judgmental. And that's just the top of the list. This stuff has been going on since Roman Empire in the first century.

Then there is the persecution of Christians in the post–Cold War to the persecution of Christians from 1989 to the present, which is taking place in Africa, the Americas, Europe, Asia and Middle East.

 

[Overjoyed]

Yes calvin never mentioned God is love in his institutes and mysteriously/intentionally left that out for some unknown or known reason.

According to the words of the Shema and what Jesus had to say about it. Instead of leaving it out you'd think that would be the starting point.

Shema. Hear, O Israel: Adonai is our God, Adonai in One! Blessed is God's name; His glorious kingdom is for ever and ever! And you shall love Adonai your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your might. Deuteronomy 6:5-9

And Jesus said:
This is the first commandment. And the second, like it, is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.” Mark 12:29

That's what we should be doing with Eve instead of giving her a hard time. I would imagine she's somebody's grandmother, show the love!

 

[S.T.Ranger]

Very good thoughts and I mostly agree but I'd say to give this one even more thought.

3 You are clean already, by means of the word that I have spoken to you.
4 Remain in me, as I in you. As a branch cannot bear fruit all by itself, unless it remains part of the vine, neither can you unless you remain in me. (Jn. 15:3-4 NJB)

To remain—is to stay in a condition already met.

John 14-17 is prophecy in large apart, it speaks of what is going to take place.

In John 15 the Lord tells the Disciples He is the True Vine, and what we have to ask is—what is the vine that is not the True Vine?

If I asked, "When the Lord stated He was the True Bread, what was the bread that wasn't the true Bread," what is the answer? Manna. The physical/temporal representation of the Bread that would be sent from Heaven.

So too, Jesus is the True Vine, the means of relationship to God, contrasted with the vine that is not the True Vine:

Psalm 80:8

Thou hast brought a vine out of Egypt: thou hast cast out the heathen, and planted it.

The disciples were in relationship with God through their heritage. The designation that they are "clean" can in no way equate to being "in Christ" through the union of the Holy Ghost, simply because it was not yet taking place. We also look at the fact that the Lord had not yet died to provide Atonement for the disciples sin.

This is a great passage to go to in relation to the Tree of Romans 11. I view that tree, not as salvation, but as the provision God has made for men to be in relation to Him. The "tree" was exclusive to Israel, and the primary issue of the chapter centers on Gentile Inclusion. At the time of the writing, and even now, there yet remains a national salvation to occur:


Romans 11:25-27
King James Version

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.


The "tree of provision" is what Israel, as a nation, has been cut out of. Relationship with God is now, as Christ teaches in John 15—through Jesus Christ, not the Covenant of Law.

When Christ tells the disciples to abide in Him, this is His warning that they should not return to the Covenant of Law, which was the physical/temporal representation of Christ.

Again,

John 14

23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
Keep in mind the sending of "another Comforter" would not be fulfilled until Pentecost. The disciples may be "clean" but they have not been cleansed by the Blood of Christ yet. And when we read the Gospels, we see the disciples failed in their "abiding in Christ. Peter, for example, went back to his life of fishing. Why wasn't he going around still preaching Christ?

It is a difficult passage to understand, but John 15 must be kept within the context that begins in chapter 14. The disciples were beneficiaries, so to speak, of the "Vine". But their need was to remain in the True Vine, the relationship with God that was different from the previous relationship God had with Israel.

Consider this:


John 3:16
King James Version

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


What is the result of Christ coming? Eternal Life.

How did men have eternal life prior to Christ coming? They didn't.

How does one have Eternal Life? They must be in God and God in them. We partake of His nature (Eternal) by being placed in Him.

This is a great discussion topic, though. If we say that the Old Testament Saints had Eternal Life before Christ came that the world might have eternal life by believing n Him, then we must now support two means of eternal life from Scripture. We need not do that, though, because Scripture is clear there is only one means of Eternal Life, and that is through Christ Jesus.


God bless.

 

[Theophilus]

This explains it.

 

[Obadiah]

This explains it.

I love RC he's the best. But I do understood Calvinism, I just opt to understand my Bible more and trust what it says over JC.