Where Adam and Eve Sinners before the fall?

[Alive]

This is only logical on the surface... it ignores the idea of, the state of, innocence. Innocence is the state of not yet having made a moral choice that separates you as good against evil or as evil against good. Your stance concludes that Satan must have been created already holy but rebuked that state to fall but then HIS EVIL DOES COME FROM HOLINESS, his own holiness.

If GOD cannot create evil since HE is holy then Satan cannot have been created evil but holy. Then how does a holy Satan come to created his own evil ? which again has holiness creating evil ????

ImCo, Satan, like everyone else, was created innocent and chose their self defining morality by their free will.

I contend that all people created in the image of GOD to be HIS Bride, were created in innocence with a free will and an equal ability and opportunity to choose to put their faith in YHWH as their GOD and Saviour becoming morally good and chosen to be HIS family,
OR
to chose to put their faith in HIS claims to be our GOD and Saviour as lies, thinking HIM to be a false god thus becoming morally eternally evil and being passed over for salvation as eternally unfit to fulfill HIS purpose for them to be HIS Bride, condemned to the outer darkness on the spot.

I failed to see the logic in it. If they were sinners before the fall why is it not in the Bible? What if they rejected the Serpents temptation? To be temped is not sin.

Perceiving the external objective offer to anything sinful is not sin. Adam and Eve saw it; they heard it. Perceiving the offer of pleasure they did eat. It was a voluntary action.

 

[TedT]

Everything in existence is the result of God. Even darkness and evil.

How very Masonic...gnosticism is everywhere, init?

 

[TedT]

Sin does not come from holy.

This means sin does not come from GOD.

Everything in existence is the result of God. Even darkness and evil.

This means sin does come from GOD.

Make up your mind...

...and the word evil in Isaiah 45:7 is better translated as calamity, as those not imbued with the gnostic heresy well know.

 

[TedT]

I failed to see the logic in it. If they were sinners before the fall why is it not in the Bible? What if they rejected the Serpents temptation? To be temped is not sin.

If they were sinners before the fall ....
Ummm...all became sinners by their fall. The fall is the word describing the choice anyone (every sinner) made in rebellion to GOD HIMself or to one of HIS commands that self created that person (and that person only) as sinful in GOD's sight.

In post # 2 in this topic,
I offer five reasons I have found in the Garden story to believe that Adam and Eve were already sinful before they ate.

Since I have totally committed my faith to the GOD who is truly HOLY with no dark in HIM so none can come out from HIM, I cannot accept that Adam, Eve nor Satan were created evil and fallen. Yes they were inferior to GOD but inferior does not mean sinful...only choosing to rebel against GOD HIMself, the Satanic fall, or against one of his commands, the fall of the elect, can cause the moral failure that enslaves us in its addictive power called sinfulness.

The temptation by the serpent after they were given the command was allowed so as to open their eyes to the sin they already had, that is, to prove to them they were sinners in need of a saviour. Since they were already sinful by the time they were moved, placed, sown into the garden, Matt 13:36-39, they were already unable to resist the serpent's temptation of rebellion though as GOD's chosen people, they had already rejected Satan's rebuke of YHWH as a liar and a false god.

Thus in the garden they were sinful but uncondemned believers while the serpent was condemned already as having never believed,
Berean Standard Bible
John 3:18 Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe has already been condemned, because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

 

[Clifford]

If they were sinners before the fall ....
Ummm...all became sinners by their fall. The fall is the word describing the choice anyone (every sinner) made in rebellion to GOD HIMself or to one of HIS commands that self created that person (and that person only) as sinful in GOD's sight.

In post # 2 in this topic,

I offer five reasons I have found in the Garden story to believe that Adam and Eve were already sinful before they ate.

Since I have totally committed my faith to the GOD who is truly HOLY with no dark in HIM so none can come out from HIM, I cannot accept that Adam, Eve nor Satan were created evil and fallen. Yes they were inferior to GOD but inferior does not mean sinful...only choosing to rebel against GOD HIMself, the Satanic fall, or against one of his commands, the fall of the elect, can cause the moral failure that enslaves us in its addictive power called sinfulness.

The temptation by the serpent after they were given the command was allowed so as to open their eyes to the sin they already had, that is, to prove to them they were sinners in need of a saviour. Since they were already sinful by the time they were moved, placed, sown into the garden, Matt 13:36-39, they were already unable to resist the serpent's temptation of rebellion though as GOD's chosen people, they had already rejected Satan's rebuke of YHWH as a liar and a false god.

Thus in the garden they were sinful but uncondemned believers while the serpent was condemned already as having never believed,
Berean Standard Bible
John 3:18 Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe has already been condemned, because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

If they were sinful how did God declare his creation "good"? If they were sinful then how did God walk around with Adam in the cool of the afternoon? Isn't sin separation from God?

 

[Alive]

If they were sinful how did God declare his creation "good"? If they were sinful then how did God walk around with Adam in the cool of the afternoon? Isn't sin separation from God?

I hear you. Let me see if I have this right. So God put a sinful man and woman in the garden, then tells them not to do something. Seriously where is the logic in that. It's like putting the cookie jar were the kids can reach it then wondering where the cookies went.

 

[TedT]

If they were sinful how did God declare his creation "good"? If they were sinful then how did God walk around with Adam in the cool of the afternoon? Isn't sin separation from God?

We have the serpent who arrived in the garden already evil with evil intent before they ate...and the satanic reprobate were imprisoned in tartarus within this very good creation...so very good doesn't necessarily have to mean perfectly morally upright.

PCE theology contends that HIS creation being called very good did not therefore mean it was absolutely clean of all evil but rather that it was perfect to fulfill the purpose for its creation, the redemption of ALL HIS sinful elect, which would allow the end of the postponement of the day of judgement.

Is not the whole bible the story of GOD walking and talking and looking out for and sustaining HIS sinful elect from Adam, Eve, Cain and Abel on? How did HE scold them for their sin if your pov is correct?
Berean Standard Bible
Deut 31:8 The LORD Himself goes before you; He will be with you. He will never leave you nor forsake you (in your sins). Do not be afraid or discouraged.”

 

[TedT]

I hear you. Let me see if I have this right. So God put a sinful man and woman in the garden, then tells them not to do something. Seriously where is the logic in that.

The law is given to SINNERS !!! to open their eyes to their inability to keep a simple command by which they will realize that they are indeed sinners in the sight of GOD and need to be ashamed and to repent. I works very well for that, ttoo.

1 Timothy 1:9 We also know that the law is made not for the righteous [nor the innocent] but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious, etc, etc.

Rom 3:20 Therefore no one will be justified in His sight by works of the law. For the law merely brings awareness of sin.

 

[Clifford]

We have the serpent who arrived in the garden already evil with evil intent before they ate...and the satanic reprobate were imprisoned in tartarus within this very good creation...so very good doesn't necessarily have to mean perfectly morally upright.

PCE theology contends that HIS creation being called very good did not therefore mean it was absolutely clean of all evil but rather that it was perfect to fulfill the purpose for its creation, the redemption of ALL HIS sinful elect, which would allow the end of the postponement of the day of judgement.

Is not the whole bible the story of GOD walking and talking and looking out for and sustaining HIS sinful elect from Adam, Eve, Cain and Abel on? How did HE scold them for their sin if your pov is correct?
Berean Standard Bible
Deut 31:8 The LORD Himself goes before you; He will be with you. He will never leave you nor forsake you (in your sins). Do not be afraid or discouraged.”

Ok I see "Good" not always good. The plot thickens "HIS sinful elect from Adam, Eve, Cain and Abel on". They were elected to be sinful, Who knew? And all this time I thought they were making a choice.

 

[TedT]

Ok I see "Good" not always good. The plot thickens "HIS sinful elect from Adam, Eve, Cain and Abel on". They were elected to be sinful, Who knew? And all this time I thought they were making a choice.

GOD IS ONLY AND ALWAYS GOOD AND IS LIGHT WITH NO DARKNESS IN HIM AT ALL
Berean Standard Bible
1 John 1:5 And this is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you: God is light, and in Him there is no darkness at all.
Light cannot create darkness as GOD is not a house divided. GOD is light and light cannot create darkness which is created only if something else blocks the light. Light creating darkness is akin to believing that there is a match or source of darkness which when employed shoots our darkness and fills the room with dark!!

A good tree cannot put forth rotten fruit.
Berean Literal Bible
Matt 7:18 A good tree is not able to bear bad fruits...the theology that we are created fallen says a good, even perfect, tree CAN produce bad fruit.

A stream of life giving water cannot put forth salt or brackish water.
Berean Standard Bible
My brothers, can a fig tree grow olives, or a grapevine bear figs? Neither can a salt spring produce fresh water.

GOODNESS cannot bring forth evil.
Inherent evil cannot have been a part of our creation. We must have been created as perfectly able to choose by our free will to enter HIS righteous perfection or to repudiate HIS righteousness and become HIS eternal enemy.

I repudiate the claim that GOD created anyone, elect or not, as sinful ! but I contend everyone was created before the creation of the physical universe and in this heavenly state the fall of all sinners took place by their free will, NOT BY THEIR CREATION! By our free will response to HIS claims to be our God and the only saviour from sin we became HIS elect or HIS eternal enemies.

I accept Job 38:7 about the creation of the physical universe as the proof of my faith in this:
Berean Standard Bible
...while the morning stars sang together and ALL the sons of God shouted for joy? If you are a son of GOD then you were there singing your heart out for HIS glory!!!

After this creation which we all saw, Rom 1:18-20, all sinners were flung to the earth, into sheol inside the earth, Rev 12:4-9, for the redemption of the sinful elect and the eventual judgement of the eternally sinful reprobate demons. From Sheol, the sinful elect and the reprobate people condemned already were sown (moved) into, not created in, the world to achieve HIS purpose with us, Matt 13:36-39.

 

[TedT]

They were elected to be sinful, Who knew? And all this time I thought they were making a choice.

WE were elected or passed over for election as HIS response to our free will, (that is, by a will not enslaved to sin) decision to
1. put our faith in HIS claims to be our GOD and saviour from all sin as true...
OR
2. to put their faith in HIS claims to be our GOD and saviour from all sin as lies contending that therefore HE was a false god.

This happened before the foundation of the world:
Berean Standard Bible
Eph 1:4 For He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless in His presence.

 

[Clifford]

I look at it differently, First, Paul does not say that God chose and predestined Christians to believe in Jesus. Instead, Paul is saying that God (1) chose Christians to be holy and blameless, and (2) predestined them to be adopted by Him as His children through Jesus Christ. To be holy, blameless, and adopted can be seen as the benefits God graciously gives to those who believe.

 

[TedT]

To be holy, blameless, and adopted can be seen as the benefits God graciously gives to those who believe.

Exactly, the benefits of election for those who put their faith in HIM as their GOD and saviour from all sin...before the foundation of the world, before they rebelled against HIS call for the judgement upon the satanic reprobate.

Election is NOT causative, that is, it does not cause anyone's fate, saved or unsaved.

People CHOSE their own FATE by their free will decision about what they hoped will bring them the most happiness.

Once they chose to put their faith in YHWH as their GOD and saviour, election sealed their choice as a promise it will be fulfilled by Him if they should ever sin.

Iow, election is not caustive but predictive...a prediction based upon HIS response to our free will decision to put our faith in HIM!

 

[jeremiah1five]

I failed to see the logic in it. If they were sinners before the fall why is it not in the Bible?

You must not be reading other members comments.
It is in the bible that the man and woman were sinners before the act of disobedience in eating from the forbidden tree.

Lying is a sin. Adam and the woman were created sinners (Greek: "hamartia" translated "sin" in the KJV meaning "missing the mark." What is the "mark" they missed? The glory of God, or the glorious standard that is God.)

6 Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.
Proverbs 30:6.

Adam and the woman added to God's Words when he/she said, "Neither shall ye touch it." God did not say these words. He said this:

16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. Gen. 2:16–17.

The woman said:

3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. Gen. 3:3.

They lied. Although the addition to God's words are recorded from the mouth of the woman both were created sinful for there is only ONE God, there is NONE like Him, and He gives His glory (sinlessness is a glory of God) to NO ONE. Isaiah said the above about God. So, taking Isaiah's words that God does not give/share/copy His glory leaves the man and woman in their creation fallen short of the glory of God. The word is "sin."

What if they rejected the Serpents temptation? To be temped is not sin.

That wasn't the will of God in the matter. Both being created sinners the purpose of God regarding the tree was to give the man and woman the KNOWLEDGE of their sinfulness. There is no freewill involved. By both being created fallen short of God's Sinless glory they could only act and think according to their sinful nature. A leopard cannot change its spots

Perceiving the external objective offer to anything sinful is not sin. Adam and Eve saw it; they heard it. Perceiving the offer of pleasure they did eat. It was a voluntary action.

Here is an ancient quote going all the way back to the garden, or at least shortly thereafter.

13 As saith the proverb of the ancients, Wickedness proceedeth from the wicked: 1 Sam. 24:12–13.

This is equal to saying "sin comes from sinners" as wickedness comes from the wicked.
Adam and the woman added to God's Word thus showing themselves as sinners before eating from the tree. Both were found to be liars. Lying is a sin. Sin comes from sinners.
As you asked: From the Bible.

 

[jeremiah1five]

How very Masonic...gnosticism is everywhere, init?

A man that answers before hearing a matter is not wise. Wisdom is a fruit of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is Wisdom personified. I think you should check yourself to see if you are in the "faith" because wisdom seems to have not manifested in your response. Nor do you know the Scripture as YOU THINK you do:

5 I am the LORD, and there is none else,
There is no God beside me:
I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west,
That there is none beside me.
I am the LORD, and there is none else.
7 I form the light, and create darkness:
I make peace, and create evil:
I the LORD do all these things.
Isaiah 45:5–7.

This is the Word of God. Do you still think the Word of God is "masonic and "gnostic" as you said it was.

 

[jeremiah1five]

This means sin does not come from GOD.

No, it means God cannot sin.

This means sin does come from GOD.

No, it means God cannot sin.

Make up your mind...

...and the word evil in Isaiah 45:7 is better translated as calamity, as those not imbued with the gnostic heresy well know.

It is the Hebrew word "raʿ" which is a moral evil.
Out of 663 times this word is found in the text it is translated "evil" 442 times, "wickedness" 59 times, "wicked" 25 times, etc., but nowhere is this word translated by the KJV translators as "calamity."

Strong's [#7451] "evil" from [#7489] (ra`a`); bad or (as noun) evil (natural or moral.)

This word is exactly what it is despite your unbelief of the Scripture.

7 I form the light, and create darkness:
I make peace, and create evil:
I the LORD do all these things.
Isaiah 45:7.

But don't fret. Everything in creation falls short of God's Eternal glory.
Everything.

 

[Clifford]

Not to worry.. Stand firm and Hold fast to scripture and not the fables of men. Everything in creation reveals God's glory. God's creation does not fall short but accomplishes His purpose.


Here are 10 Bible verses that celebrate God’s creation and reveal His glory through the natural world:

1. John 1:3 (KJV):
   

   “All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.”

2. Isaiah 42:5 (NIV):
   

   “This is what God the Lord says—the Creator of the heavens, who stretches them out, who spreads out the earth with all that springs from it, who gives breath to its people, and life to those who walk on it.”

3. Psalm 96:11-12 (CEB):
   

   “Let heaven celebrate! Let the earth rejoice! Let the sea and everything in it roar! Let the countryside and everything in it celebrate! Then all the trees of the forest too will shout out joyfully.”

4. Job 12:7-10 (ESV):
   

   “But ask the beasts, and they will teach you; the birds of the heavens, and they will tell you; or the bushes of the earth, and they will teach you; and the fish of the sea will declare to you. Who among all these does not know that the hand of the Lord has done this? In his hand is the life of every living thing and the breath of all mankind.”

5. Romans 1:20 (NLT):
   

   “For ever since the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky. Through everything God made, they can clearly see his invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse for not knowing God.”

6. Psalm 95:4-5:
   

   “In His hand are the deep places of the earth; The heights of the hills are His also. The sea is His, for He made it; and His hands formed the dry land.”

7. Genesis 1:1 (KJV):
   

   “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.”

8. Genesis 1:3 (KJV):
   

   “Then God said, ‘Let there be light’; and there was light.”

9. Genesis 1:27 (KJV):
   

   “God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.”

10. Psalm 104:24-30 (NIV):
    

    “How many are your works, Lord! In wisdom you made them all; the earth is full of your creatures. There is the sea, vast and spacious, teeming with creatures beyond number—living things both large and small. All creatures look to you to give them their food at the proper time. When you give it to them, they gather it up; when you open your hand, they are satisfied with good things. When you hide your face, they are terrified; when you take away their breath, they die and return to the dust. When you send your Spirit, they are created, and you renew the face of the ground.”

These verses remind us of the greatness of our Creator and the importance of cherishing and caring for His magnificent creation. Amen!

 

[TedT]

This is the Word of God. Do you still think the Word of God is "masonic and "gnostic" as you said it was.

I said your interpretation was Masonic and agnostic, not the word of GOD...

 

[Rowan]

I've never heard this before - would you share who taught you this pov?

I'll give you three guesses and the first two don't count

 

[Rowan]

Perhaps he was the serpent...?

Guess number one you got the right answer.