Where Adam and Eve Sinners before the fall?

[jeremiah1five]

As I have said before, God created Adam (and the woman) sinful, which the KJV word "sin" is defined as "missing the mark."
What is the "mark" they missed?
The glory of God, or the glory that is God.
There is only ONE holy, sinless God.
There is NONE like Him.
And He gives His glory (holiness, sinlessness) to NO ONE, says Isaiah.

What is the prevailing teaching and belief in the Gentile church on this question?
The long-held belief is that when Adam and the woman ate from the tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil that this was their sin which was their "downfall." But where did their propensity to sin come from? Were they sinners which is why they sinned, or did they sin and become sinners? Were they holy or sinless before they ate from the forbidden tree? That cannot be for sin does not come or derive from holy. The last Adam Christ proved this. He was holy, He was sinless, and He did no sin neither was guile found in His mouth.

If we look at the Scripture in Genesis 3, we see that there was another fundamental at work in the story of Adam's fall. In the text we read the woman distort God's instructions to her. Either she or her husband Adam added to God's commandment about not eating from the forbidden fruit when he instructed him because when we look at Genesis 2:16-17 we find God saying this to Adam:

16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Gen. 2:15–17.

But when the serpent asked the woman why it was that she was prohibited from eating of that particular tree she responded with this:

2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
Gen. 3:2–3.

Where did the notion of “I can't touch it” come from”?

Somebody, either Adam or the woman added it to God's decree.

Proverbs 30:6 says don't add anything to his words or he'll rebuke you and you will be found to be a liar.

6 Add thou not unto his words Lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar. Proverbs 30:6.

This is exactly the situation we have with the woman and Adam because some words were added and guess what? It did prove them to be Liars. They - or he, or both - sinned before the sin of disobedience. They sinned because they were sinners.

Man has a real tendency to add to God's word even more than subtracting from it and this old serpent knew that the instant the woman, maybe Adam, lied by embellishing what God's instruction actually was, they sinned. Then they sinned again by disobeying God not to eat from the forbidden tree. They were sinners before they ate from the forbidden tree. They were sinners before they sinned.

The only place sin can come from is a sin nature. It surely cannot come from a sinless or holy nature. The last Adam Christ proved this.
So, the only reasonable conclusion is that since there is only ONE God, there is NONE like Him, and He gives His glory (holiness, sinlessness) to NO ONE, the man and the woman were created sinful, or "missing the mark" of the glory of God.
The Greek word "hamartia" is translated as "sin" in the KJV.
They were created fallen short of the glory of God. That is why they sinned. They were created sinful and with a natural, earthy, sinful nature.
They were created from something: dirt. And dirt is not holy or sinless.
They ate from the forbidden tree because they were sinners to begin with. They were liars. They added to God's word.
And as Proverbs states anyone that does this and adds to God's decrees is a liar and no liar has eternal life abiding in them.

 

[TedT]

I agree but I reach a different conclusion...

Sin in the Garden prior to the eating of the fruit:

1. Adam was being rebellious to seek his mate amongst the animals: GOD knew HE had Eve planned so an animal wasn't in HIS plans at all. Who thought of the idea to look among the animals for his helpmeet, anyway?? Certainly was not GOD! So if Adam was righteous and faithful, it seems logical that GOD would say, "Not here, bud, I got a woman for you!" Why did GOD let him go through the charade of looking amongst the animals if Adam was not being rebellious?

2. The root word for A&E being naked and the serpent being crafty in an evil is the same word, `rm.* They can be read the opposite, ie, Adam and Eve were crafty and the serpent was naked if so desired.. The vowels that make them to be naked or crafty were not put into the writing until ç600AD. The reason the Rabbis and the Church Father's chose naked for Adam and Eve was their decision that all mankind was created at conception (traducianism) or at birth (creationism of the soul) So, as newly created in the garden they had to be innocent since GOD does not create evil...[at least until HE wants evil people so HE supposed created the rest of us in Adam's sin but that is a different blasphemy].

*There is also a perfectly good word about Noah that describes the nakedness of being unclothed with absolutely no chance of thinking it meant evil.

Naked is a metaphor for evil in other parts of scripture. Rev 3:17 You say, ‘I am rich; I have grown wealthy and need nothing.’ But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and NAKED. 18 I counsel you to buy from Me gold refined by fire so that you may become rich, white garments so that you may be clothed and your shameful nakedness not exposed, and salve to anoint your eyes so that you may see. Where is the sin in being unclothed in your own garden as GOD made you? Even if naked refers to sex, how could it be sinful if they were commanded to procreate? No, the telling part of this verse is "They were not ashamed!". If there was no sin in being naked then why bring up shame? They were not over 12 feet tall either but there is no hint that they should be ashamed of that.

The reference to their shame is echoed in Rev 3:17-18, being a sinner is shameful but those blinded by sin need their eyes opened by the Lord's salve and their shame covered by white garments, the righteous acts of the saints, Rev 19:18.

It is also curious how, when their eyes were finally opened to their sin, they saw their being naked, a nakedness they had before they ate, not their eating. The only thing that happened when they ate was that they now saw their sinfulness / nakedness and were ashamed but their nakedness did not change in the least. So, if being unclothed is no sin, why did they suddenly become ashamed of their nakedness when they sinned?

3. Eve treats the serpent like a mentor or pastor. Is it not a sin to fraternize with a demon this way? IF she was innocent then why did GOD allow the serpent access to her and not warn her to beware of him? How can we consider HIM to be the most loving to this innocent girl, letting the serpent deceive her? BUT if she was already sinful and the serpent was her friend, a friend whom she had to repudiate, then HE might have let the serpent deceive her to open her eyes to her own sinfulness and to the serpent's sin so she would never choose to follow him over her GOD ever again.

4. The bible is pretty clear that the law / commands are given to convict sinners of their sinfulness.
Romans 3:20 Therefore no one will be justified in His sight by works of the Law. For the Law merely brings awareness of sin.
Romans 7:7 What shall we say, then? Is the law sinful? Certainly not! Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law.
Gal 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. 24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Espcially:
Berean Standard Bible
1 Tim 1:9 We realize that law is not enacted for the righteous, but for the lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinful...etc, etc. et they got the law.
Thus for Adam and Eve to be given a command is an indication that they were sinners who needed the law to open their eyes to their sin by their failure to obey an easy command.

5. Adam was first to bring sin into the world. Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man...yet the serpent entered the garden with an evil nature and evil intent, And Eve sinned by befriending the serpent or at least by eating first so Adam was the third person to sin in the world. This is impossible unless he was already a sinner when he came into the world and brought his sin with him as the first person to be sown / brought into the world.

 

[jeremiah1five]

I agree but I reach a different conclusion...

Sin in the Garden prior to the eating of the fruit:

If this is original, then, good work. Glad to see you thinking if indeed this is the result of your cogitations.

1. Adam was being rebellious to seek his mate amongst the animals:

I don't think it 'played out' that way.

GOD knew HE had Eve planned so an animal wasn't in HIS plans at all. Who thought of the idea to look among the animals for his helpmeet, anyway?? Certainly was not GOD! So if Adam was righteous and faithful, it seems logical that GOD would say, "Not here, bud, I got a woman for you!" Why did GOD let him go through the charade of looking amongst the animals if Adam was not being rebellious?

Again, I don't think it 'played out' that way:

18 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.
19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.
20 And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.
Gen. 2:18–20.

Seems the purpose was two-fold. To name the animals (which required a great deal of brainpower), and to show there was no one like him that would complement him.

2. The root word for A&E being naked and the serpent being crafty in an evil is the same word, `rm.* They can be read the opposite, ie, Adam and Eve were crafty and the serpent was naked if so desired.. The vowels that make them to be naked or crafty were not put into the writing until ç600AD. The reason the Rabbis and the Church Father's chose naked for Adam and Eve was their decision that all mankind was created at conception (traducianism) or at birth (creationism of the soul) So, as newly created in the garden they had to be innocent since GOD does not create evil...[at least until HE wants evil people so HE supposed created the rest of us in Adam's sin but that is a different blasphemy].

There is only ONE God, there is NONE like Him (which brings into question the statement "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness" Gen. 1:26), and He gives His glory to NO ONE, so by virtue of these three truths Adam/man could ONLY be created fallen short of His glory, and the word describing this is "sin."

*There is also a perfectly good word about Noah that describes the nakedness of being unclothed with absolutely no chance of thinking it meant evil.

It didn't mean 'evil.' Nor was it 'evil.'
God asked, "WHO told you, you were naked" implying an external influence on his thinking. OR it could have been an awareness of sin and sin brings guilt. I choose the second. Adam knew what he did was evil. The tree served its purpose. It gave the man the KNOWLEDGE of evil where no knowledge of evil previously existed.
They may have added to God's decree by saying "neither shall ye touch it", but there was no confronting them over it except after the deed.

Naked is a metaphor for evil in other parts of scripture. Rev 3:17 You say, ‘I am rich; I have grown wealthy and need nothing.’ But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and NAKED. 18 I counsel you to buy from Me gold refined by fire so that you may become rich, white garments so that you may be clothed and your shameful nakedness not exposed, and salve to anoint your eyes so that you may see. Where is the sin in being unclothed in your own garden as GOD made you? Even if naked refers to sex, how could it be sinful if they were commanded to procreate? No, the telling part of this verse is "They were not ashamed!". If there was no sin in being naked then why bring up shame? They were not over 12 feet tall either but there is no hint that they should be ashamed of that.

Maybe so (metaphor) but what is described in the narrative is literal.

The reference to their shame is echoed in Rev 3:17-18, being a sinner is shameful but those blinded by sin need their eyes opened by the Lord's salve and their shame covered by white garments, the righteous acts of the saints, Rev 19:18.

And as we look back on these things that seems to be the case.

It is also curious how, when their eyes were finally opened to their sin, they saw their being naked, a nakedness they had before they ate, not their eating. The only thing that happened when they ate was that they now saw their sinfulness / nakedness and were ashamed but their nakedness did not change in the least. So, if being unclothed is no sin, why did they suddenly become ashamed of their nakedness when they sinned?

Their nakedness was physical, but it also revealed they had "nothing" upon which to mount any kind of defense, which is why they hid. In either case, they sewed fig leaves to cover themselves. It wasn't the classical, proverbial fig leaf that covered their genitals, they tried to cover every inch of their skin. They became in so much language, "tree people."

3. Eve treats the serpent like a mentor or pastor. Is it not a sin to fraternize with a demon this way? IF she was innocent then why did GOD allow the serpent access to her and not warn her to beware of him? How can we consider HIM to be the most loving to this innocent girl, letting the serpent deceive her? BUT if she was already sinful and the serpent was her friend, a friend whom she had to repudiate, then HE might have let the serpent deceive her to open her eyes to her own sinfulness and to the serpent's sin so she would never choose to follow him over her GOD ever again.

I don't believe where it says about Lucifer, "thou wast in the garden of Eden" that this was the time in which he was in the garden, but before God created man, specifically between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2. Lucifer's ministry was covering the throne of God, and if this is literal and the throne rested on the ground, then Lucifer would have been hovering in 1st heaven and wanted to ascend 2nd heaven where the stars, planets, and moon reside.

4. The bible is pretty clear that the law / commands are given to convict sinners of their sinfulness.
Romans 3:20 Therefore no one will be justified in His sight by works of the Law. For the Law merely brings awareness of sin.
Romans 7:7 What shall we say, then? Is the law sinful? Certainly not! Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law.
Gal 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. 24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Agreed. But not merely 'to convict,' but to show their sin/sinfulness. And this was what the Law in the Garden of "Thou shalt not [eat of it]" showed, that they were sinners BEFORE they sinned. Sin does come from sinners, does it not?

Especially:
Berean Standard Bible
1 Tim 1:9 We realize that law is not enacted for the righteous, but for the lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinful...etc, etc. et they got the law.
Thus for Adam and Eve to be given a command is an indication that they were sinners who needed the law to open their eyes to their sin by their failure to obey an easy command.

I agree with the first part, but it wasn't the Law "they needed to open their eyes," but the tree was what was used to open their eyes to their sinfulness. It gave them the KNOWLEDGE of their sinfulness.

5. Adam was first to bring sin into the world. Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man...

No, sin was already in the world (as creation was created sinful) by virtue of merely being created.
Sin already existed because creation was sinful in its substance when created. In contrast to the new heavens and earth to be created sinless (which I don't take to be a location, but 'heaven' and 'earth' would have to be language that describes God Himself.) Eternalness is the nature of God. God cannot reduplicate or copy Himself (eternalness) in a location so it would have to be Himself in which "we" are "hid" in Christ meaning in Him literally.

yet the serpent entered the garden with an evil nature and evil intent, And Eve sinned by befriending the serpent or at least by eating first so Adam was the third person to sin in the world. This is impossible unless he was already a sinner when he came into the world and brought his sin with him as the first person to be sown / brought into the world.

Well, Peter says the angels that sinned God has locked up:

4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; 2 Peter 2:3–4.

Now consider: If it was Lucifer in the garden and he sinned in his actions, then why are ALL the angels locked up??

Second, I place their being locked up (and from the moment they were locked up) occurring between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2. The teaching that God locked them up after Genesis 6 when they married woman and had offspring to be error and false teaching.

Third, James says:

14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. James 1:14.

...shows that temptation comes from within, not from without such as a third entity in the garden named Lucifer. This being true that temptation does come from within, then it was only the woman and her thoughts that were in play in the garden - no Lucifer.

This also applies to Jesus in the desert when he was tempted. There are not two ways to be tempted, one from the teaching that there was a Lucifer in the garden with the woman tempting her, and another from James who says temptation is from within a person's thoughts.

This is impossible unless he was already a sinner when he came into the world and brought his sin with him as the first person to be sown / brought into the world.

Not impossible. Biblical.

Adam and the woman were sinners before disobeying God and eating from the tree. They were created fallen short of the glory of God because God does not share His glory of sinlessness or holiness with the man created. God cannot create His holiness or sinlessness in Adam, nor can He reduplicate or copy His nature in Adam at all. Impossible.

Adam would have had to add to God's decree of "thou shalt not eat of it" and add "neither shall ye touch it" and communicate this addition to the woman and be found to be a liar:

6 Add thou not unto his words, Lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar. Proverbs 30:6.

A sinner before he ate from the tree. right?
Sin comes from sinner, right?

 

[Rowan]

My take is what the scriptures tell us in James 1:15 , “After desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.” Temptation can lead to sin, but it doesn't have to. It is wise to remember that whenever you are tempted.

James made it clear that temptation to sin always comes from within ourselves. It's never God's fault. No matter how terrible our circumstances are, the desire to sin is still ours. We are tempting ourselves to sin. God provides trials and ordeals as a way to "exercise" our faith, in order to make it stronger. The lure of giving up, sinning, and defying God is not the purpose of His will.

Here James warns us of the consequence of giving into our desire, which is falling into sin. When we say "yes" to the desire to do what we want, instead of trusting God and obeying Him, sin is born. Then sin grows up and produces death.

Sin always leads to death. For those who are not in Christ—who have not accepted God's free gift of forgiveness of sin, who have not been born again to a new life—that death is permanent and eternal. But even for Christians, sin brings consequences. That's why it's important to confess our sins as soon as possible.

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:9

 

[jeremiah1five]

My take is what the scriptures tell us in James 1:15 , “After desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.” Temptation can lead to sin, but it doesn't have to. It is wise to remember that whenever you are tempted.

James made it clear that temptation to sin always comes from within ourselves. It's never God's fault. No matter how terrible our circumstances are, the desire to sin is still ours. We are tempting ourselves to sin. God provides trials and ordeals as a way to "exercise" our faith, in order to make it stronger. The lure of giving up, sinning, and defying God is not the purpose of His will.

Here James warns us of the consequence of giving into our desire, which is falling into sin. When we say "yes" to the desire to do what we want, instead of trusting God and obeying Him, sin is born. Then sin grows up and produces death.

Sin always leads to death. For those who are not in Christ—who have not accepted God's free gift of forgiveness of sin, who have not been born again to a new life—that death is permanent and eternal. But even for Christians, sin brings consequences. That's why it's important to confess our sins as soon as possible.

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:9

It is not a sin to be tempted. Jesus was tempted and from within.

 

[TedT]

If this is original, then, good work. Glad to see you thinking if indeed this is the result of your cogitations.

NO sir - while there are personal expressions in this essay, I was taught this pov and I spent some years in prayerful bible study before I accepted it as truth. I know the Spirit who brought me to Christ and this is the theology He taught me to accept.

Seems the purpose was two-fold. To name the animals (which required a great deal of brainpower), and to show there was no one like him that would complement him.

...which completely ignores the phrase "But for Adam no suitable helper was found."
Berean Standard Bible
Gen 2:20 But for Adam no suitable helper was found., a neat side step to avoid any need to exegete this 'jot' at all...

But not merely 'to convict,' but to show their sin/sinfulness.

Conviction of sinfulness IS the opening of the eyes to their sinfulness....

4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; 2 Peter 2:3–4.

Now consider: If it was Lucifer in the garden and he sinned in his actions, then why are ALL the angels locked up??

Please consider:
Berean Standard Bible
1 Peter 5:8 Be sober-minded and alert. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour. Chained but prowling???

Berean Standard Bible
Matt 13:36 Then He left the crowds and went into the house. And His disciples came to Him and said, “EXPLAIN to us the parable of the tares of the field.” No explanation of a metaphor can use more metaphor or it is no explanation at all but merely an extension of the metaphor. He clearly explains that all people are sown, ie, moved from somewhere to this world and are not created here. This includes all the people of the evil one, the demonic reprobate and all the sinful people of the kingdom. We also know that the wicked people of the evil one were moved here from Sheol since it is written that they RETURN to Sheol upon their death in
Berean Standard Bible
PS 9:17 The wicked will RETURN to Sheol—all the nations who forget God.
and return means to go back to where you were before in all ordinary language...

The explanation of who we are and how we got here:
37 And He said, “The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man, 38 and the field is the world; and as for the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; and the weeds are the sons of the evil one; 39 and the enemy who sowed them is the devil, and the harvest is the end of the age; and the reapers are angels.

This tells us that within their prison the demos have access to wandering the world. It suggest that in
Berean Literal Bible
2 Peter 2:4 For if God did not spare the angels having sinned, but having cast them down to Tartarus, in chains of gloomy darkness, delivered them, being kept for judgment; that chains of darkness doesn't mean chains of gloom restricting their movement but a darkness upon their minds chaining them to their hostility to YHWH and the Christ, their blindness and addiction to the enslaving power of evil.

They were created fallen

Light cannot create darkness:
Your interpretation means that light CAN create darkness....that there is a power from GOD that when employed can stand in opposition to GOD! GOD is not a house divided, GOD is light and light cannot create darkness which is created only if something else blocks the light. This is akin to believing that there is a match or source of darkness which when employed shoots our darkness and fills the room with dark!!

A good tree cannot put forth rotten fruit.
Berean Literal Bible
Matt 7:18 A good tree is not able to bear bad fruits...the theology that we are created fallen says a good, even perfect, tree CAN produce bad fruit.

A stream of life giving water cannot put forth salt or brackish water.
Berean Standard Bible
My brothers, can a fig tree grow olives, or a grapevine bear figs? Neither can a salt spring produce fresh water. Your theology cays a fig tree CAN grow olives, that a grapevine CAN bear figs and that a salt spring CAN produce fresh water!

GOODNESS cannot bring forth evil.
Inherent evil cannot have been a part of our creation. We must have been created as perfectly able to choose by our free will to enter HIS righteous perfection or to repudiate HIS righteousness and become HIS eternal enemy.

You are seduced by the logic that to be created less than GOD must mean we are sinful in some way by our creation but that logic is false and, imCo, leaning to your own understanding has gotten you off:
Berean Standard Bible
Prov 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart, and lean not on your own understanding;

It is far easier for me to believe that everyone created in HIS image, ie, able to become a proper bride for HIM, was created with a free will and an equal ability and opportunity to choose by their free will to either put their faith, an unproven hope, in HIM as our GOD and Saviour and so become HIS elect,
OR
to chose to put their faith, their unproven hope, in the idea HE was lying about HIS divinity and being our only saviour from sin and, as a liar HE was the first sinner in creation and therefore to be rebuked as a false god lying about the legal and natural consequences of making this choice.

All sin, all evil is a result of the free will choices of HIS creation, not from any part of creating us as sinful or evil.

 

[jeremiah1five]

NO sir - while there are personal expressions in this essay, I was taught this pov and I spent some years in prayerful bible study before I accepted it as truth. I know the Spirit who brought me to Christ and this is the theology He taught me to accept.


...which completely ignores the phrase "But for Adam no suitable helper was found."
Berean Standard Bible
Gen 2:20 But for Adam no suitable helper was found., a neat side step to avoid any need to exegete this 'jot' at all...

None was found. Meaning there was no one in the animal world anything like him.
It was two-fold. Name the animals and in conclusion find none like him.

Conviction of sinfulness IS the opening of the eyes to their sinfulness....

The opening of their eyes was to see their sinfulness, not the other way around.

Please consider:
Berean Standard Bible
1 Peter 5:8 Be sober-minded and alert. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour. Chained but prowling???

Adversary.
Devil = "traducer. It's an adjective. It's extremely poor grammar to try to make an adjective into a noun or pronoun.
What Pete is talking about is the flesh. The flesh is adversary against the Spirit, and the liar/devil/adjective is against the Spirit of Truth.

8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 1 Jn 3:7–8.

The Father is set against the world:
15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 1 Jn 2:14–15.

The Son is set against the devil/traducer/liar/adjective:
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 1 Jn 3:7–8.

The Spirit is set against the flesh:
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. Gal. 5:17.

The world, the flesh, and the liar/devil are part of man that opposes God. The angels that sinned are locked up. All evil in the world originates in man.

Berean Standard Bible
Matt 13:36 Then He left the crowds and went into the house. And His disciples came to Him and said, “EXPLAIN to us the parable of the tares of the field.” No explanation of a metaphor can use more metaphor or it is no explanation at all but merely an extension of the metaphor. He clearly explains that all people are sown, ie, moved from somewhere to this world and are not created here. This includes all the people of the evil one, the demonic reprobate and all the sinful people of the kingdom. We also know that the wicked people of the evil one were moved here from Sheol since it is written that they RETURN to Sheol upon their death in
Berean Standard Bible
PS 9:17 The wicked will RETURN to Sheol—all the nations who forget God.
and return means to go back to where you were before in all ordinary language...

The "evil one" refers to man. There is no "the devil made me do it" in the earth. All sin in the world originates from man - even born again man.

The explanation of who we are and how we got here:
37 And He said, “The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man, 38 and the field is the world; and as for the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; and the weeds are the sons of the evil one; 39 and the enemy who sowed them is the devil, and the harvest is the end of the age; and the reapers are angels.

This tells us that within their prison the demos have access to wandering the world. It suggest that in
Berean Literal Bible
2 Peter 2:4 For if God did not spare the angels having sinned, but having cast them down to Tartarus, in chains of gloomy darkness, delivered them, being kept for judgment; that chains of darkness doesn't mean chains of gloom restricting their movement but a darkness upon their minds chaining them to their hostility to YHWH and the Christ, their blindness and addiction to the enslaving power of evil.

Peter says otherwise. The angels that sinned are locked up awaiting judgment.

4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; 2 Pete 2:3–4.

15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
Isaiah 14:15.

The quote in Isaiah took place before there was an Adam created. And what happen with ol' slewfoot took place when he wanted to ascend into heaven and be like God. In God's anger He destroyed the earth, turned it upside-down (North America used to be South America), and the only way He could do this, and man does not perish was BEFORE man was created.

Light cannot create darkness:
Your interpretation means that light CAN create darkness....that there is a power from GOD that when employed can stand in opposition to GOD! GOD is not a house divided, GOD is light and light cannot create darkness which is created only if something else blocks the light. This is akin to believing that there is a match or source of darkness which when employed shoots our darkness and fills the room with dark!!

God is light and no darkness in Him at all. But look at what the Light of the universe did:

1 IN the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. Gen. 1:1–2.

Once God created the sun its light was cast out into space and when it met with planet there was darkness. And now that there were days there was also night. God did that.

7 I form the light, and create darkness:
I make peace, and create evil:
I the LORD do all these things
Isaiah 45:7.

Guilty as charged.

A good tree cannot put forth rotten fruit.
Berean Literal Bible
Matt 7:18 A good tree is not able to bear bad fruits...the theology that we are created fallen says a good, even perfect, tree CAN produce bad fruit.

And man cannot "make" a good tree evil.

33 Either make the tree good, and his fruit good
Mt 12:32–33.

The word "make" translated into Hebrew is the word "bara" and it's the word translated "create." And this word is used of God creating something out of nothing. God is the one that "makes"/creates (but now 'born') good or evil. He is the Author of everything in the universe. He is the active force, if you will, of everything in existence - even evil.

A stream of life giving water cannot put forth salt or brackish water.
Berean Standard Bible
My brothers, can a fig tree grow olives, or a grapevine bear figs? Neither can a salt spring produce fresh water. Your theology cays a fig tree CAN grow olives, that a grapevine CAN bear figs and that a salt spring CAN produce fresh water!

No, my theology says sin comes from sinner, NOT sin comes from holy, which is what you're trying to make me say in (fig tree grow olives.)

GOODNESS cannot bring forth evil.
Inherent evil cannot have been a part of our creation. We must have been created as perfectly able to choose by our free will to enter HIS righteous perfection or to repudiate HIS righteousness and become HIS eternal enemy.

There is no free will free from external or internal influence. A good tree brings forth good fruit. An evil tree brings forth evil fruit. And God is the Author of both in this bilateral universe:

7 I form the light, and create darkness:
I make peace, and create evil:
I the LORD do all these things
Isaiah 45:7.

You are seduced by the logic that to be created less than GOD must mean we are sinful in some way by our creation but that logic is false and, imCo, leaning to your own understanding has gotten you off:
Berean Standard Bible
Prov 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart, and lean not on your own understanding;

So simple that you miss it:

13 As saith the proverb of the ancients, Wickedness proceedeth from the wicked: 1 Sam. 24:13.

In other words, sin comes/proceedeth from the sinner.

It is far easier for me to believe that everyone created in HIS image, ie, able to become a proper bride for HIM, was created with a free will and an equal ability and opportunity to choose by their free will to either put their faith, an unproven hope, in HIM as our GOD and Saviour and so become HIS elect,

Free will in man is an illusion. Not even God has free will except only to do good.
You violate the Word in Isaiah which says,

There is only ONE God, (Adam possessed no Deific attributes which means as a natural man standing before a Holy God he falls short of the glory of God. The word for that is "sin.")
There is NONE like Him, (Adam was not created in the image of God because the image of God the Father is God the Son. There is no better image of a Father than a Son.)
He gives His glory to NO ONE. (holiness, sinlessness, etc., are glories of God and Adam possessed NONE of God's Deific Attributes. The only Person that can stand before a Holy God blameless is a Holy Son.)

Sin comes from sinner. Sin does not come from holy.

OR
to chose to put their faith, their unproven hope, in the idea HE was lying about HIS divinity and being our only saviour from sin and, as a liar HE was the first sinner in creation and therefore to be rebuked as a false god lying about the legal and natural consequences of making this choice.
All sin, all evil is a result of the free will choices of HIS creation, not from any part of creating us as sinful or evil.

If sin is choices, then this destroys the Doctrine of Imputation for the Doctrine of Imputation states it was a nature-swap that occurred between the Son and man (His Elect.)

21 For he hath made him [to be] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
2 Cor. 5:20–21.

The words "to be" are not in the text. It reads, "for he made him sin for us who knew no sin that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him." By holding to choices as the origin of sin that leaves the sin-nature untouched and if left untreated then we have the choices of sin atoned and we walk into heaven with an untouched and unatoned sin-nature.
Your erroneous theology makes 2 Cor. 5:21 read this way:

For He made him acts of sin who knew no sin that we might be made the righteous acts of God in him.

Christ did not die for the acts of sin. He died for the sin nature man was created with because there is only ONE God, there is NONE like Him, and He gives His glory to NO ONE.
Christ died in a dynamic that swapped our sin nature and we receive His righteous nature.

Peter understood:

4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, 2 Pete 1:3–4.

As I said, it's a nature-swap. He takes our sin nature (which killed Him), and we take His righteous nature (which gives us life.)

Ya falla?

 

[Rowan]

God provided for every need Adam and Eve had—both their physical and spiritual appetites. For their bodies, God supplied food and water most abundantly. For their souls, the breath of God in them, He gave them the work of dominion and procreation, reflecting His own life. They would be free to choose to love God, as He freely chose to create and love them.

Then temptation came In the form of the LIE. They were told that God was holding something back from them which brought fear that caused them to buy into the lie. The only way they saw they could fix it was to be disobedient to God and eat the fruit. Then their eyes would be opened.

Genesis 3:4 “You will not surely die,” the serpent told her. 5“For God knows that in the day you eat of it, your eyes will be opened and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

What did the serpent insinuate about God’s character in his appeal to the woman? That he was a liar and could not be trusted. They had to rely on themselves. Sounds like a sin nature rearing its ugly head up. Eve could have stood on God's word the same way Jesus did when he was tempted in the wilderness but that is not what happened. She took and she did eat and gave to Adam to eat. Sin entered the creation and they became sinners.

The rest is history. Indeed, those words encapsulate the essence of countless moments, decisions, and events that have shaped our world. And the best news ever was Jesus came into it. He came from heaven to earth to show the way. He is the way the truth and the life.

 

[jeremiah1five]

God provided for every need Adam and Eve had—both their physical and spiritual appetites.

There was no spiritual aspect with Adam and the woman. Saul says the first man was of the earth, earthy and natural and he also said the natural man receives not the things of the Spirit. Make the connection. Adam and the woman did not have the Holy Spirit dwelling in them.

For their bodies, God supplied food and water most abundantly. For their souls, the breath of God in them, He gave them the work of dominion and procreation, reflecting His own life. They would be free to choose to love God, as He freely chose to create and love them.

Then temptation came In the form of the LIE. They were told that God was holding something back from them which brought fear that caused them to buy into the lie. The only way they saw they could fix it was to be disobedient to God and eat the fruit. Then their eyes would be opened.

You read WAY too much into the text and thus add to the bible:

6 Add thou not unto his words,
Lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.
Proverbs 30:6.

Stop adding to the bible. It shows you are a liar, and no liar has eternal life abiding in him. This is serious business.

Genesis 3:4 “You will not surely die,” the serpent told her. 5“For God knows that in the day you eat of it, your eyes will be opened and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

The angels that sinned were locked up by the time God created man.

4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; 2 Pete 2:4.

What did the serpent insinuate about God’s character in his appeal to the woman? That he was a liar and could not be trusted. They had to rely on themselves. Sounds like a sin nature rearing its ugly head up. Eve could have stood on God's word the same way Jesus did when he was tempted in the wilderness but that is not what happened. She took and she did eat and gave to Adam to eat. Sin entered the creation and they became sinners.

The woman added to the bible, too. They were both sinners BEFORE they disobeyed God to not eat from the tree. Sin comes from sinners.

The rest is history. Indeed, those words encapsulate the essence of countless moments, decisions, and events that have shaped our world. And the best news ever was Jesus came into it. He came from heaven to earth to show the way. He is the way the truth and the life.

 

[Rowan]

Adam and Eve we're not sinners before they disobeyed God and ate from the tree. They were tempted then they ate and then they became sinners.

Then the LORD God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being. Genesis 2:7

Genesis 2:7 records the particular way He did create man—using both natural material (dust) and supernatural power to give humans a unique place in the cosmos.

God assessed that which He had created and determined it was good. That would include Adam and Eve. If they were sinners before they ate from the tree how could that be true?

 

[jeremiah1five]

Adam and Eve we're not sinners before they disobeyed God and ate from the tree. They were tempted then they ate and then they became sinners.

I'm not sure if you're a Christian but if you are you've probably never been discipled nor taught that as Christians we are to read and study God's revealed Word and once we have understanding without controversy or compromise accept it as truth upon which we rest our lives and eternal security. No one has thought to teach you this. OK. Let me reiterate. Let's see if you first have the understanding and the obedience to God and devotion to His Word for all your moving and having your be-ing in this world because it's a terrible thing that Gentile Christians are heavy on evangelical outreach but severely lack in biblical discipleship. Seems not many pastors or teachers do not want to open their homes and spend the necessary currency to disciple a young, baby Christian today. So, let me provide the Scripture again in case you missed it or completely ignored it.

Lying is a sin. It's the same sin as the sin Judas committed and it effectively is betrayal to the truth and the Spirit of Truth. Lying takes many forms. One is direct assault against the truth of God in which a person just doesn't believe God in His Word.
1 John 5:9-10 states anyone who disbelieves God and His Word calls God a liar and that God is a man that lies like men. Another is lying through omission. This means holding back on parts of a given truth thus changing the truth to conform to a lie and this is what the devil does and the children of the devil.
Another form of lying is adding to God's Word and again changing the form of the truth and fashioning it into something else which is used to deceive oneself and lead others astray. Now, pay attention.

6 Add thou not unto his words, Lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar. Proverbs 30:6.

It doesn't matter who added to God's command first, the man when he shared the command with the woman, or the woman on the spot during her cogitations in her mind about the Tree of the KNOWLEDGE of Good and Evil.

Now, here's your first clue. It was a tree God used to give them the KNOWLEDGE of good and evil. If they were sinless before they disobeyed God did their disobedience give them the knowledge of good? Well, if they were sinless, they were already good, right? So, their eating from the tree was disobedient and it gave them the KNOWLEDGE of evil. If they were not good and already sinful and already evil and they ate from the tree and were disobedient, did the tree give them the KNOWLEDGE of good?
No, they were already sinful. They just didn't KNOW they were sinful because their disobedience surely didn't give them the KNOWLEDGE of good. All the tree was used for by God was to give these two sinful beings the KNOWLEDGE of their sinfulness. The tree didn't change them from good to evil. It was merely a vehicle by which God used to SHOW them they were sinful and sinners before they sinned the sin of disobedience. And the sin of disobedience is gravely and extremely a serious sin. It was the sin for which God's only begotten Son died for. It is the foundation from which all sins come from: Disobedience.

Now, to the passage I provided which shows they were sinners before their sin of disobedience in eating from the forbidden tree, a passage you either overlooked, didn't understand, or rejected in favor of your own Constantinian Gentile theology. Here it is again:

6 Add thou not unto his words, Lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar. Proverbs 30:6.

From the text in Genesis 3:3 the woman ADDED to God's Word and in doing this she sinned and was found to be a liar. And this was BEFORE the sin of disobedience in eating from the tree. So, yes, it is true as I said before, the woman was a sinner BEFORE she ate from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and evil. You said she wasn't a sinner before she ate from the tree and sinned the sin of disobedience and the Word of God in me showed you that you are wrong. The woman added to God's Word "neither shall ye touch it" proving she was a sinner BEFORE her second sin of disobedience in eating from the forbidden tree in question.
Now that you have been shown to be wrong, get your doctrine in compliance to the Word of God. Now that you have learned something all I can say to you now is, "Go, and sin no more."

Then the LORD God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being. Genesis 2:7
Genesis 2:7 records the particular way He did create man—using both natural material (dust) and supernatural power to give humans a unique place in the cosmos.
God assessed that which He had created and determined it was good. That would include Adam and Eve. If they were sinners before they ate from the tree how could that be true?

The Hebrew word in the text translated "good" in the KJV for one, is a word in Hebrew that means, "good enough" or "to specifications." How it is understood is that God created something and said [it was] good enough, or to His specifications. It's like saying "a job well done," or simply as the text says, "good." This word has no moral attachments given to it, so it doesn't mean good in a moral sense. There's another word translated "good" that does have moral implications but it's not here in Genesis. God merely said that His creation was "to specification" and the way He thought to make the man. It doesn't mean "morally good."

 

[Affinity]

I'm not sure if you're a Christian but if you are you've probably never been discipled nor taught that as Christians we are to read and study God's revealed Word and once we have understanding without controversy or compromise accept it as truth upon which we rest our lives and eternal security. No one has thought to teach you this. OK. Let me reiterate. Let's see if you first have the understanding and the obedience to God and devotion to His Word for all your moving and having your be-ing in this world because it's a terrible thing that Gentile Christians are heavy on evangelical outreach but severely lack in biblical discipleship. Seems not many pastors or teachers do not want to open their homes and spend the necessary currency to disciple a young, baby Christian today. So, let me provide the Scripture again in case you missed it or completely ignored it.

Lying is a sin. It's the same sin as the sin Judas committed and it effectively is betrayal to the truth and the Spirit of Truth. Lying takes many forms. One is direct assault against the truth of God in which a person just doesn't believe God in His Word.
1 John 5:9-10 states anyone who disbelieves God and His Word calls God a liar and that God is a man that lies like men. Another is lying through omission. This means holding back on parts of a given truth thus changing the truth to conform to a lie and this is what the devil does and the children of the devil.
Another form of lying is adding to God's Word and again changing the form of the truth and fashioning it into something else which is used to deceive oneself and lead others astray. Now, pay attention.

6 Add thou not unto his words, Lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar. Proverbs 30:6.

It doesn't matter who added to God's command first, the man when he shared the command with the woman, or the woman on the spot during her cogitations in her mind about the Tree of the KNOWLEDGE of Good and Evil.

Now, here's your first clue. It was a tree God used to give them the KNOWLEDGE of good and evil. If they were sinless before they disobeyed God did their disobedience give them the knowledge of good? Well, if they were sinless, they were already good, right? So, their eating from the tree was disobedient and it gave them the KNOWLEDGE of evil. If they were not good and already sinful and already evil and they ate from the tree and were disobedient, did the tree give them the KNOWLEDGE of good?
No, they were already sinful. They just didn't KNOW they were sinful because their disobedience surely didn't give them the KNOWLEDGE of good. All the tree was used for by God was to give these two sinful beings the KNOWLEDGE of their sinfulness. The tree didn't change them from good to evil. It was merely a vehicle by which God used to SHOW them they were sinful and sinners before they sinned the sin of disobedience. And the sin of disobedience is gravely and extremely a serious sin. It was the sin for which God's only begotten Son died for. It is the foundation from which all sins come from: Disobedience.

Now, to the passage I provided which shows they were sinners before their sin of disobedience in eating from the forbidden tree, a passage you either overlooked, didn't understand, or rejected in favor of your own Constantinian Gentile theology. Here it is again:

6 Add thou not unto his words, Lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar. Proverbs 30:6.

From the text in Genesis 3:3 the woman ADDED to God's Word and in doing this she sinned and was found to be a liar. And this was BEFORE the sin of disobedience in eating from the tree. So, yes, it is true as I said before, the woman was a sinner BEFORE she ate from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and evil. You said she wasn't a sinner before she ate from the tree and sinned the sin of disobedience and the Word of God in me showed you that you are wrong. The woman added to God's Word "neither shall ye touch it" proving she was a sinner BEFORE her second sin of disobedience in eating from the forbidden tree in question.
Now that you have been shown to be wrong, get your doctrine in compliance to the Word of God. Now that you have learned something all I can say to you now is, "Go, and sin no more."


The Hebrew word in the text translated "good" in the KJV for one, is a word in Hebrew that means, "good enough" or "to specifications." How it is understood is that God created something and said [it was] good enough, or to His specifications. It's like saying "a job well done," or simply as the text says, "good." This word has no moral attachments given to it, so it doesn't mean good in a moral sense. There's another word translated "good" that does have moral implications but it's not here in Genesis. God merely said that His creation was "to specification" and the way He thought to make the man. It doesn't mean "morally good."

Oh my goodness whatever shall we do? Talk about adding to scripture...

What's the Bible say about judge not least you be judged with the same judgment?
And there's that other one... who are you to judge another man's servant?

 

[TedT]

Adam and Eve we're not sinners before they disobeyed God and ate from the tree. They were tempted then they ate and then they became sinners.

They were naked, in Hebrew, `rm, before GOD, and in the very next verse, `rm is translated as cunning in evil about the serpent. To their credit, the rabbis (and the early church who followed the rabbis in this) could not accept that GOD had created a sinner (or any evil) so they had to accept that `rm did not mean cunning in evil for Adam and Eve BECAUSE they decided to believe that Adam and Eve were created in the garden and all men are created on earth, a fallacy not overtly corrected until our Lord Christ told us the clear truth that we are sown, moved, here from elsewhere, Matt 13:36-39.

Adam and Eve (and the serpent) were NOT created evil but neither were they created in the garden. They were created and fell into their first sin in the heavens as spirits before the physical creation of the universe which they saw as one of ALL the sons of GOD and sang HIS praises as per Job 38:7.

They were naked before GOD, a metaphor for sinfulness all thru the bible. When they had their eyes opened to their sin, they saw the nakedness which they had before they ate, not their eating...

 

[Alive]

Here's what my Bible tells me on this topic:

Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one. But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death.
James1:13-15

 

[jeremiah1five]

Oh my goodness whatever shall we do? Talk about adding to scripture...

Prove it.
Or if you can't or won't prove it, then as Christian you must recant or be found a liar and false accuser.
But since your comment is not to prove me wrong and instead accuse me of adding to the Scripture I can tell immediately of what spirit you are.

What's the Bible say about judge not least you be judged with the same judgment?

It says:

2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
Mt 7:1–2.

It also says:

24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment. Jn 7:24.

This means if I have judged righteously applying the Word of God to error, then God will apply the same standard to me and judge me righteous. In other words, my judgment will be vindicated and approved.

And there's that other one... who are you to judge another man's servant?

I am my brother's keeper.
But first I must make sure we have the same Father.
This requires:

Judging whether one is OF GOD:
Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 1 Jn 4:1.

Judging good and evil:
14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil. Heb 5:14.

Judging truth from lies:
9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.
10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. 1 Jn 5:8–10.

I don't wink at lies about the One True God. If there is lies and heresy I am called to speak the truth against lies and if my brethren have their doctrine in the right place, be approved of God.

18 For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it.
19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.
1 Co 11:17–19.

Do you know the difference between schism and heresy?
You see, there is a great deal of schism and heresy in the Gentile church and I will tell you why. That's because 1 Corinthians 11:18-19 is not allowed to play out. Instead, Christians who see two 'brethren' arguing a point in Scripture they short-circuit this dynamic and say, "love you brother and stop arguing because it brings division."
So, if as a believer in Christ have a calling and spiritual gifts and the Lord saw fit to bring a heretic to my attention to challenge his lies, and others see and hear us in disagreement their first reaction is to stop the argument and short-circuit not only my call and gifts but also the Holy Spirit. And so a heresy is allowed to remain in the fellowship.

Yes, "the greatest of these is love," but is it love for my brethren if I see and hear a heresy and allow it place in the body of Christ so that it may multiply and in time be established as "truth" because no one has been able to challenge it to keep the body of Christ pure. Gentile Christians hold love over doctrine which is a heresy in and of itself.

Do you not know that even love comes with doctrine and instruction? Do you not know that not only does God teach us what love is, but He also commands WHO to love? And while the "greatest of THESE (faith, love, hope) is love what is first and foremost is doctrine:

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. 2 Timothy 3:15–17.

If anyone doesn't have his or her doctrine correct as revealed in the Scriptures, then they cannot be "perfect" (complete) and thoroughly furnished (equipped) to do good works which based on correct doctrinal faith in God cannot please God.
Anytime anyone says a wrong thing about the One True God and this "so-great salvation" Scripture must challenge it. Because if it isn't and it is allowed to remain in the body of Christ then soon others are infected by its heresy and lies.
And the end of that body is worse than in the beginning.

When two 'brothers' are arguing what the truth of Scripture it must be played out to the end so that others who hold the truth in righteousness can make a call as to who is correct and who is telling lies. In the end the brother who has rightly divided the Word of truth will be approved as one telling the truth of God.
This is foundational to a healthy fellowship. I'm surprised you don't know this.
But then again, (maybe) you haven't been discipled in the things of God.

 

[101G]

As I have said before, God created Adam (and the woman) sinful, which the KJV word "sin" is defined as "missing the mark."

Your First in a series of ERRORS. if God made Adam and the Woman sinful, then you're saying God is a LIER, (God forbid). because God said this, Genesis 1:31 "And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day." so after the sixth day when all things was made..... all things, including Man and Woman, was God. so if you say God made mankind sinful, then you just contradicted what God did in creation.

there is a scripture for what you just did. Isaiah 5:20 "Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!"

Mankind, the Male and the Female, was Made "INNOCENT". neither WISE nor IGNORANT.

There is NONE like Him.

Second ERROR on this topic. Genesis 1:26 "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth."

well that lie of like him just went down the drain.

And He gives His glory (holiness, sinlessness) to NO ONE, says Isaiah.

1 Corinthians 11:7 "For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man."

IN Holiness? 1 Peter 1:15 "But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;" 1 Peter 1:16 "Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy." WHERE IS THAT WRITTEN AT? a couple of places, but for now, Leviticus 11:44 "For I am the LORD your God: ye shall therefore sanctify yourselves, and ye shall be holy; for I am holy: neither shall ye defile yourselves with any manner of creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth."

IN SINLESSNESS? 1 John 1:9 "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." ONE MORE, just in case we sin, and just might forget...... 1 John 2:1 "My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:" 1 John 2:2 "And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world."

that's about three ERRORS corrected in just one passage of texts.

What is the prevailing teaching and belief in the Gentile church on this question?
The long-held belief is that when Adam and the woman ate from the tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil that this was their sin which was their "downfall." But where did their propensity to sin come from? Were they sinners which is why they sinned, or did they sin and become sinners? Were they holy or sinless before they ate from the forbidden tree? That cannot be for sin does not come or derive from holy. The last Adam Christ proved this. He was holy, He was sinless, and He did no sin neither was guile found in His mouth.

TWO MORE ERRORS. A. eating was not the sin, "DISOBEDIANCE", was the sin. and B. when the Lord Jesus came into that flesh... he made it holy, nor did he come in flesh full of WISDOM. he Got what Adam and Eve did not Get ... for they jumped the gun, so to speak, TEACHING of God in KNOWLEDGE and UNDERSTANDING. supportive scripture, Luke 2:52 "And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man." and how did he get that wisdom? by being obedient in allowing his Spirit/God teach him while in a Isaiah 50:4 "The Lord GOD hath given me the tongue of the learned, that I should know how to speak a word in season to him that is weary: he wakeneth morning by morning, he wakeneth mine ear to hear as the learned." Isaiah 50:5 "The Lord GOD hath opened mine ear, and I was not rebellious, neither turned away back." these was the missing teenage years of our Lord.

101G.

 

[koberstein]

As I have said before, God created Adam (and the woman) sinful, which the KJV word "sin" is defined as "missing the mark."
What is the "mark" they missed?
The glory of God, or the glory that is God.
There is only ONE holy, sinless God.
There is NONE like Him.
And He gives His glory (holiness, sinlessness) to NO ONE, says Isaiah.

What is the prevailing teaching and belief in the Gentile church on this question?
The long-held belief is that when Adam and the woman ate from the tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil that this was their sin which was their "downfall." But where did their propensity to sin come from? Were they sinners which is why they sinned, or did they sin and become sinners? Were they holy or sinless before they ate from the forbidden tree? That cannot be for sin does not come or derive from holy. The last Adam Christ proved this. He was holy, He was sinless, and He did no sin neither was guile found in His mouth.

If we look at the Scripture in Genesis 3, we see that there was another fundamental at work in the story of Adam's fall. In the text we read the woman distort God's instructions to her. Either she or her husband Adam added to God's commandment about not eating from the forbidden fruit when he instructed him because when we look at Genesis 2:16-17 we find God saying this to Adam:

16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Gen. 2:15–17.

But when the serpent asked the woman why it was that she was prohibited from eating of that particular tree she responded with this:

2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
Gen. 3:2–3.

Where did the notion of “I can't touch it” come from”?

Somebody, either Adam or the woman added it to God's decree.

Proverbs 30:6 says don't add anything to his words or he'll rebuke you and you will be found to be a liar.

6 Add thou not unto his words Lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar. Proverbs 30:6.

This is exactly the situation we have with the woman and Adam because some words were added and guess what? It did prove them to be Liars. They - or he, or both - sinned before the sin of disobedience. They sinned because they were sinners.

Man has a real tendency to add to God's word even more than subtracting from it and this old serpent knew that the instant the woman, maybe Adam, lied by embellishing what God's instruction actually was, they sinned. Then they sinned again by disobeying God not to eat from the forbidden tree. They were sinners before they ate from the forbidden tree. They were sinners before they sinned.

The only place sin can come from is a sin nature. It surely cannot come from a sinless or holy nature. The last Adam Christ proved this.
So, the only reasonable conclusion is that since there is only ONE God, there is NONE like Him, and He gives His glory (holiness, sinlessness) to NO ONE, the man and the woman were created sinful, or "missing the mark" of the glory of God.
The Greek word "hamartia" is translated as "sin" in the KJV.
They were created fallen short of the glory of God. That is why they sinned. They were created sinful and with a natural, earthy, sinful nature.
They were created from something: dirt. And dirt is not holy or sinless.
They ate from the forbidden tree because they were sinners to begin with. They were liars. They added to God's word.
And as Proverbs states anyone that does this and adds to God's decrees is a liar and no liar has eternal life abiding in them.

You are correct in your interpretation. That's how I read it the Torah..

 

[TedT]

As I have said before, God created Adam (and the woman) sinful, which the KJV word "sin" is defined as "missing the mark."
What is the "mark" they missed?
The glory of God, or the glory that is God.
There is only ONE holy, sinless God.
There is NONE like Him.
And He gives His glory (holiness, sinlessness) to NO ONE, says Isaiah.

There are holy angels...
Mark 8:38 If anyone is ashamed of me and my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will be ashamed of him when he comes in his Father's glory with the HOLY angels. This verse contrasts the sinfulness of men with the holiness, that is, the righteousness, of angels, not just their consecration to GOD.

Robotic holiness is a farce...a stone cannot sin but it is not righteous and a robot neither can be holy, that is, in the context of this verse, righteous. As well, the condemnation for Satan's fall is proof of his free will as he is not guilty of anything if he is a robot...

I contend that Adam and Eve were sinful before the eating in the garden but I contend that they were not created there and they were not created sinful...they were created innocent with the potential to become holy and righteous by their own free will just like the holy angels did. The holy angels did not miss the mark, nor did the elect until after they put their faith in HIM as GOD and Saviour.

I totally reject the gnostic, Masonic, blasphemy of the DUALISTIC NATURE OF GOD AS THE CREATOR OF BOTH GOOD AND EVIL BECAUSE THEY BELIEVE THAT AT THE CORE OF HIS NATURE HE HIMSELF IS BOTH GOOD AND EVIL...!

Light cannot create darkness.

You know something about evil in the garden but you know nothing about our fall and how or where it happened...but to make GOD the creator of evil is just wrong.

 

[TedT]

Maybe so (metaphor) but what is described in the narrative is literal.

A literal physical fact is often used to point to a scriptural / real truth...a system called type, the earthly fact and antitype, the spiritual truth the type is pointing towards.

 

[TedT]

Their nakedness was physical, but it also revealed they had "nothing" upon which to mount any kind of defense, which is why they hid. In either case, they sewed fig leaves to cover themselves. It wasn't the classical, proverbial fig leaf that covered their genitals, they tried to cover every inch of their skin. They became in so much language, "tree people."

I've never heard this before - would you share who taught you this pov?