When You See JERUSALEM Surrounded By Armies, Luke 21
- Thread starter Selah
- Start date
DavidTree
Active Member
Explanation of how they do this is in Post 76 on thread: 'The Thousand Year Reign'
Note: The link for that post is #(thousand years post 76)
The issue of making a thousand years into no time is mainly the full preterist concept. I cannot remember hearing any reasonable argument for that. I have heard a logical explanation that the word 1000 is sort of plural -- not as multiple 1000s but just as an indefinite long time.
I think the full preterists often got excited from seeing details of scripture make sense in many ways but then disregard he problems encountered in Revelation 20
DavidTree
Active Member
Did Christ come to establish a religion? Or did HE come to show us the Way the Truth and the Life?
i cannot speak for @Selah on this but i will say that we are saved thru faith in the Word of God/the Gospel/Blood of Christ
The FATHER called me unto Christ, i bowed my knee and confessed with my heart, out my mouth, that JESUS CHRIST is LORD.
By the Living Words of God He resurrected my dead soul unto Life in JESUS CHRIST = i became Born-Again by the Spirit
Then i prayed as i was commanded to do by the LORD = to be Baptized in the Holy Spirit = John 14:15-18
His Salvation came to me 40 years ago.
The Holy Spirit led me thru a few denominations to teach me, from the Scriptures, how and why denominations formed, what Truth they hold too along with what man-made teachings they also hold too.
All 'christian' denominations have Truth when the Gospel is preached and all denominations have error when man-made doctrines are preached.
@Red Baker - What denomination do you follow?
@DavidTree
I started out in the Independent Baptist over fifty one years ago, but left them within two to three years, when I started studying the scriptures searching for the truth. So, I believe nothing today what I first heard from some of the most leading fundamental Baptist preachers of that day: Oliver B. Greene; Harold B. Sightler, BJU, etc. After all, I lived on the buckler of the Bible belt, in Greenville, S.C. Churches on every corner, many of them Baptist.
I left organized religion back in the late seventies, early eighty, only to attempted to return in the late eighties, but left for good a little later, never to return again.
This area is almost is given over to premillennialism as a whole. We have come to see and understand Amillennialism (Idealist) which is a eschatological position in Christianity which holds that there will be no millennial reign of the righteous on this Earth from earthly Jerusalem. This position interprets Daniel 7-12; The Olivet Discourse as found in Matthew 24,25; Mark 13 and Luke 21; 2nd Thess. 2 and Revelation using the scriptures, NOT HISTROY or the writings of Josephus the infidel, the Preterist's second bible, maybe the first actually.
I'm what many would called a Particular Baptist, I would fit perfectly in with them back in 1650 etc. on most all of what they taught, if not all. I have nothing to hid, I'm not ashamed of what I believe and I believe I can defend my position, for sure, definitely willing to do so.
I do not mind being specific with anyone's question, because it does help them to better address my posit, knowing more from where I may be coming from.
I started out in the Independent Baptist over fifty one years ago, but left them within two to three years, when I started studying the scriptures searching for the truth. So, I believe nothing today what I first heard from some of the most leading fundamental Baptist preachers of that day: Oliver B. Greene; Harold B. Sightler, BJU, etc. After all, I lived on the buckler of the Bible belt, in Greenville, S.C. Churches on every corner, many of them Baptist.
I left organized religion back in the late seventies, early eighty, only to attempted to return in the late eighties, but left for good a little later, never to return again.
This area is almost is given over to premillennialism as a whole. We have come to see and understand Amillennialism (Idealist) which is a eschatological position in Christianity which holds that there will be no millennial reign of the righteous on this Earth from earthly Jerusalem. This position interprets Daniel 7-12; The Olivet Discourse as found in Matthew 24,25; Mark 13 and Luke 21; 2nd Thess. 2 and Revelation using the scriptures, NOT HISTROY or the writings of Josephus the infidel, the Preterist's second bible, maybe the first actually.
I'm what many would called a Particular Baptist, I would fit perfectly in with them back in 1650 etc. on most all of what they taught, if not all. I have nothing to hid, I'm not ashamed of what I believe and I believe I can defend my position, for sure, definitely willing to do so.
I think it is much more than that.I’m a CHRISTIAN.That’s all that matters with my Father.
1st Peter 3:15
“But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:”@DavidTree
Jimmy Swaggart could have easily been a typical fundamental Baptist preacher for their form of worship is the same and their eschatology is 100% the same!
This is something we can discuss later, sounds much like the folks I left many years ago, but, do believe they have some sincere God fearing folks among them, known only to God. Of course the fundamental Baptist and the Pentecostal have a lot in common!
Jimmy Swaggart could have easily been a typical fundamental Baptist preacher for their form of worship is the same and their eschatology is 100% the same!
@DavidTree
So, the rest of your post does not apply to me ~of course I believe that Jesus Christ arose from the dead, and legally we did as well by being IN HIM by God's election of grace. Jesus' resurrection secured our eternal redemption and also guarantees our physical resurrection as well.
Btw, you never commented on 1st Corinthians 15:29 ~ still waiting.
I never said that, provide proof. What did say was that 1st Corinthians 15 is mainly addressing the resurrection of believers ~ go back and read what I said again.
So, the rest of your post does not apply to me ~of course I believe that Jesus Christ arose from the dead, and legally we did as well by being IN HIM by God's election of grace. Jesus' resurrection secured our eternal redemption and also guarantees our physical resurrection as well.
Btw, you never commented on 1st Corinthians 15:29 ~ still waiting.
synergy
Active Member
You left the mainline Baptists because of their premillennialism view? That doesn't explain how you gravitated to the particular Baptists and became calvinistic in your beliefs.
Last edited:
DavidTree
Active Member
Otherwise, what will they do who are baptized for the dead, if the dead do not rise at all? Why then are they baptized for the dead?
There is no mystery here = straight forward =when we are baptized in water it represents our being baptized into Christ, into His Death that we may arise in Him and in His Resurrection.
Last edited:
civic
Active Member
Labels help us to identify major differences in both theology and soteriology with different groups.
The glaring ones with be differences in Reformed churches , Calvinists with Arminian churches with soteriology
Another glaring one would be Trinitarians vs non trinitarian churches regarding theology.
DavidTree
Active Member
It would be nice if we would let go of the labels = all labels come off when we leave this earth = seen and unseen
"A man comes forth naked from his mother’s womb, so will he return as he came." - Ecclesiastes 5:15
Then Job arose, tore his robe, and shaved his head; and he fell to the ground and worshiped.
And he said:
“Naked I came from my mother’s womb,
And naked shall I return there.
The Lord gave, and the Lord has taken away;
Blessed be the name of the Lord.”
In all this Job did not sin nor charge God with wrong
@DavidTree
When the false cult of the Mormons coming knocking on your door, you can chase them away with a true understanding of this one verse, they alwasy want to know do you practice this verse as they do, which they have no clue as to what Paul is saying. But, you must first believe in immersion or, you yourself do not have argument to prove them wrong.
When we baptized into Jesus Christ's religion/faith/teachings we are confessing by our baptism that we believe in a future bodily resurrection, but if we deny a future bodily resurrection then why in the world are we baptized if indeed the dead rise not all like some in Corinth were falsely teaching.
David, I think you are confused, well, actually, I know you are ~ Yet, you can saved yourself from this ignorance by believing what is written here.
David, I agree that 1Corinthians 15:29 is not mystery when we understand 1st Corinthians 15 where Paul, is addressing our future resurrection from graves, that is, our bodies.
1 Corinthians 15:29
“Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?”When the false cult of the Mormons coming knocking on your door, you can chase them away with a true understanding of this one verse, they alwasy want to know do you practice this verse as they do, which they have no clue as to what Paul is saying. But, you must first believe in immersion or, you yourself do not have argument to prove them wrong.
When we baptized into Jesus Christ's religion/faith/teachings we are confessing by our baptism that we believe in a future bodily resurrection, but if we deny a future bodily resurrection then why in the world are we baptized if indeed the dead rise not all like some in Corinth were falsely teaching.
David, I think you are confused, well, actually, I know you are ~ Yet, you can saved yourself from this ignorance by believing what is written here.
Selah
Active Member
What does thou mean by physical resurrection?
wouldn't that mean a bodily resurrection to the earth to appear again in the world from where we came? That could contrast with a resurrection that possibly just means restored to a conscious state in kind of the unseen realm forever. A more limited sense would be to find Christians upon coming to Christ as the complete sense of being resurrected.
Last edited:
Selah
Active Member
Hi, Mike. Well, here’s my take: In 1 Corinthians 15, Paul explains that we have two bodies: a flesh body and a spiritual body. When our flesh body dies, we are changed into our spiritual body and we go to be with the Lord. Paul also reveals a secret truth: not all of us will die, but all will be changed to our spiritual bodies. The last trump, the seventh and final trump, signifies Jesus Christ's return, and we are instantly changed from our flesh body to our spiritual body.
…selah
I've never seen that as our final state since Jesus appeared among the disciples and was able to eat and to be touched. I could not remember whether I associated that concept with 1 Cor 15. At the present time, I would see a physical resurrection as distinct from that event. Partly, that relates to my way of reading prophecy in the context to whom it was given --at least as the first level of interpretation. (see discussion at #ProphecyInItsContext ). It would not make sense to tell the people in Corinth something that was not directly relevant to them. Paul is not quite prophesying here but rather is comforting the fears of his audience with fuller explanation to what they know (but some had doubted).
Last edited:
civic
Active Member
CORINTHIANS 15:50: “Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.”
Jehovah’s Witnesses claim that Jesus could not have risen in His human body of flesh and bones, because Scripture states that “flesh and blood” cannot inherit the kingdom of God. Notice that Jesus did not say that His resurrected body was made of “flesh and blood.” Rather, He said His body was made of “flesh and bone” (Luke 24:39). This is significant because the term “flesh and blood” is often used in Scripture to refer to mortal humanity,in contrast to the imperishable, resurrected body alluded to by the phrase, “flesh and bones.”
Far from claiming that the resurrected human body cannot inherit God’s kingdom, this passage asserts that the mortal, perishable human body (made of flesh and blood) cannot inherit the immortal, imperishable kingdom of God. Indeed as 1 Corinthians 15:53 states, “this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.”
A spiritual body denotes an immortal body. A spiritual body is one that is dominated by the spirit, not one that is devoid of matter. The Greek word pneumatikos means a body that is directed by the spirit as opposed to one under the dominion of the flesh. It is not ruled by the flesh that perishes but by the spirit that endures. (1 Corinthians 15:50-58). A spiritual body does no mean immaterial or invisible but immortal and imperishable. Paul makes these parallels:
Earthly- Heavenly (verse 40)
Perishable- Imperishable (verse 42)
Weak- Powerful(verse 43)
Natural-Supernatural(verse 44)
Mortal- Immortal(verse 53)
The content shows that spiritual (pneumatikos) could be translated supernatural in contrast to natural from the parallels of perishable and imperishable, corruptible and incorruptible. Pneumatikos is translated supernatural in 1 Corinthians 10:4 regarding the supernatural rock that followed them in the wilderness. In the translation spiritual refers to physical objects. In 1 Corinthians 10:45 Paul spoke of the spiritual rock that followed Israel in the wilderness from which they got spiritual drink 1 Corinthians 10:4.But the OT story (Exodus 17,Numbers 20)reveals it was a physical rock from which they got literal water to drink. The actual water they drank from the material rock was produced supernaturally. Further Paul spoke about a spiritual man 1 Corinthians 2:15 he obviously did not mean an invisible, immaterial man with no corporeal body. He was as a matter of fact speaking of a flesh and blood human being whose life is lived by the supernatural power of God, a literal person whose life is Spirit directed. A spiritual man is one who is taught by the Spirit and who receives the things that come from the Spirit of God. (1 Corinthians 2:13-14). The resurrection body can be called a spiritual body in much the same way we speak of the bible being a spiritual book. Regardless of their spiritual source and power both the resurrection body and the bible are material objects.
Life giving Spirit does not speak of the nature of Christ’s resurrected body but of the divine origin of the resurrection. Jesus physical body came back to life only by the power of God.(Romans 1:4). Paul is speaking about its spiritual source not its physical substance as a material body. If spirit describes the nature of Christ’s resurrected body then Adam with whom He is contrasted must not have a soul since he is described as of the earth, made of dust (verse 47). But the bible clearly says that Adam was a living soul(Genesis 2:7). Christ’s body is called a spiritual body(soma) which always means a physical body when referring to an individual human being. The resurrected body is called spiritual and life giving spirit because its source is in the spiritual realm, not because its substance is immaterial. Christ’s supernatural resurrection body is from heaven as Adams natural body was from the earth. (verse 47). But just as the one from earth has an immaterial soul even so the One from heaven has a material body. Rhodes
hope this helps !!!
