When You See JERUSALEM Surrounded By Armies, Luke 21

[DavidTree]

One problem from an Apologetics sense is the denial of scripture based on the supposed failure to see the fulfillment of those events that were expected to happen soon. Is it worthwhile to see how that could be true without denying that Revelation 20 also gives an insight into stuff that happens after the 1000s years period (counter to the full preterist efforts)? I have been looking into eschatology for over 18 years with some more directed effort to understand eschatological terms as an emphasis for looking at the Matt 13 parables of the mysteries of the kingdom of God. The odd issue there is that people never identify the mysteries within the parables.

Anyhow, I had anticipated that Revelation 1 to 19 could be explained in a preterist/fulfilled sense. This was best explained by Bruce Gore in his YT series. I have watched many of the ones with the yellow background at this link:
#Gore's Revelation Videos

I have not delved into Revelation 1 to 19 enough to quote it from memory but I do remember certain trends in it. And I have a few details to add that were not covered by anyone I remember regarding the text. It is even within the last year that I have gleaned a few more details of the overview of Revelation. The way this works is that my mind resolves ideas within patterns. If some interpretations do not fit (my old ones or from other people), these sometimes reveal a counter idea that fits better. Or sometimes ideas come years later.

Another parable He spoke to them: “The kingdom of heaven is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal till it was all leavened.”

 

[DavidTree]

One problem from an Apologetics sense is the denial of scripture based on the supposed failure to see the fulfillment of those events that were expected to happen soon. Is it worthwhile to see how that could be true without denying that Revelation 20 also gives an insight into stuff that happens after the 1000s years period (counter to the full preterist efforts)? I have been looking into eschatology for over 18 years with some more directed effort to understand eschatological terms as an emphasis for looking at the Matt 13 parables of the mysteries of the kingdom of God. The odd issue there is that people never identify the mysteries within the parables.

Anyhow, I had anticipated that Revelation 1 to 19 could be explained in a preterist/fulfilled sense. This was best explained by Bruce Gore in his YT series. I have watched many of the ones with the yellow background at this link:
#Gore's Revelation Videos

I have not delved into Revelation 1 to 19 enough to quote it from memory but I do remember certain trends in it. And I have a few details to add that were not covered by anyone I remember regarding the text. It is even within the last year that I have gleaned a few more details of the overview of Revelation. The way this works is that my mind resolves ideas within patterns. If some interpretations do not fit (my old ones or from other people), these sometimes reveal a counter idea that fits better. Or sometimes ideas come years later.

Simple question: Are these two scriptures below congruent with each other?

Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished.

Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour.
Resist him, steadfast in the faith, knowing that the same sufferings are experienced by your brotherhood in the world.

 

[mikesw]

Another parable He spoke to them: “The kingdom of heaven is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal till it was all leavened.”

Indeed. Matt 13:33. Leaven can simply be leaven or used in an analogical sense where riser is unseen but causes great growth anyhow. That analogy complements the mustard seed parable lest a person misconstrue the leaven concept used there.

 

[DavidTree]

Indeed. Matt 13:33. Leaven can simply be leaven or used in an analogical sense where riser is unseen but causes great growth anyhow. That analogy complements the mustard seed parable lest a person misconstrue the leaven concept used there.

How would you approach/solve this conundrum:

Therefore 'leaven' causes growth and yet there was no leaven in Christ, yet we grow thru Christ.

 

[DavidTree]

Indeed. Matt 13:33. Leaven can simply be leaven or used in an analogical sense where riser is unseen but causes great growth anyhow. That analogy complements the mustard seed parable lest a person misconstrue the leaven concept used there.

Also, please give your understanding on the question posed in Post 182 - thank you

 

[mikesw]

Simple question: Are these two scriptures below congruent with each other?

Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished.

Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour.
Resist him, steadfast in the faith, knowing that the same sufferings are experienced by your brotherhood in the world.

That seems a little more than a simple question.

The latter issue can reflect the era before binding of Satan or even the effects after binding -- which would imply less "mobility" of Satan to act -- if that binding is more like a dog chain. I suggest we are at the end of the 1000s years where he has been released. That has been my primary interest in Revelation 20 and what that means for us.

 

[mikesw]

How would you approach/solve this conundrum:

Therefore 'leaven' causes growth and yet there was no leaven in Christ, yet we grow thru Christ.

The denial of the leaven analogy would be a denial of the growth of the kingdom of God in accord with the mustard seed parable. Note that the mustard seed parable means that the kingdom of God was to develop in the world without being much noticed until people could not help notice it. I think we will start noticing it.

When Jesus spoke of the leaven of the Pharisees, it was the analogical sense of leaven being an unseen influence but causing expansion. In this case leaven was tied with the teachings of the Pharisees. The passage about the Pharisees of course gave leaven a bad connotation in the mind of many preachers. But. as seen recently, the meaning of certain words and terms have to be within the context of a passage, not automatically stereotyping a word's usage. The proper balance between common meaning and contextual meaning is always a concern.

 

[DavidTree]

The denial of the leaven analogy would be a denial of the growth of the kingdom of God in accord with the mustard seed parable. Note that the mustard seed parable means that the kingdom of God was to develop in the world without being much noticed until people could not help notice it. I think we will start noticing it.

The key emphasis is: "when it grows up"

a.) when (prophetic fulfillment/completion)
b.) it (the kingdom)
c.) grows up

How would you answer (c.)

 

[DavidTree]

The denial of the leaven analogy would be a denial of the growth of the kingdom of God in accord with the mustard seed parable. Note that the mustard seed parable means that the kingdom of God was to develop in the world without being much noticed until people could not help notice it. I think we will start noticing it.

When Jesus spoke of the leaven of the Pharisees, it was the analogical sense of leaven being an unseen influence but causing expansion. In this case leaven was tied with the teachings of the Pharisees. The passage about the Pharisees of course gave leaven a bad connotation in the mind of many preachers. But. as seen recently, the meaning of certain words and terms have to be within the context of a passage, not automatically stereotyping a word's usage. The proper balance between common meaning and contextual meaning is always a concern.

Correct and i agree

But you did not solve the conundrum:

Therefore 'leaven' causes growth and yet there was no leaven in Christ, yet we grow thru Christ.

 

[mikesw]

The key emphasis is: "when it grows up"

a.) when (prophetic fulfillment/completion)
b.) it (the kingdom)
c.) grows up

How would you answer (c.)

The key emphasis is the collection of points made. You first have to figure out why it begins in a hardly noticeable fashion. Then you can consider how it is growing while still remaining unnoticed.
I think the kingdom has remained unnoticed thus far. Maybe it will be something obvious for its political sense, as demonstrated by the tree analogy that builds on the imagery of Daniel 4:19-22, only we would not see its destruction like Nebuchadnezzar faced.

I may take a break of answering questions so I can do some exercise and writing.

 

[mikesw]

Correct and i agree

But you did not solve the conundrum:

Therefore 'leaven' causes growth and yet there was no leaven in Christ, yet we grow thru Christ.

Do you have a passage in mind with this point?

 

[DavidTree]

The key emphasis is the collection of points made. You first have to figure out why it begins in a hardly noticeable fashion. Then you can consider how it is growing while still remaining unnoticed.
I think the kingdom has remained unnoticed thus far. Maybe it will be something obvious for its political sense, as demonstrated by the tree analogy that builds on the imagery of Daniel 4:19-22, only we would not see its destruction like Nebuchadnezzar faced.

I may take a break of answering questions so I can do some exercise and writing.

You first have to figure out why it begins in a hardly noticeable fashion.

Accomplished = Check

Then you can consider how it is growing while still remaining unnoticed.

Accomplished = Check

c.) grows up

How would you answer (c.)

 

[DavidTree]

Do you have a passage in mind with this point?

Sure, here is one that is congruent(in part) with the conundrum:

Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth. - 1 Cor 5:8

 

[mikesw]

Accomplished = Check


Accomplished = Check

c.) grows up

How would you answer (c.)

Evildoers gone from power.

 

[DavidTree]

Evildoers gone from power.

And when does this take place according to the parable and other congruent scripture?

 

[mikesw]

Sure, here is one that is congruent(in part) with the conundrum:

Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth. - 1 Cor 5:8

sure. we followers of Christ should not have any bad influences permeating our lives and the church. Cannot complain against that.

And when does this take place according to the parable?

we are not told. That is why the parable is instilling a sense of patience until the kingdom reign is obvious.

You are kind of hunting for clues of a much deeper examination of the parables and eschatology. You can then easily dissuade yourself from investigating in a true sense or considering what I may share within the broader bible context. That certainly is your option.

 

[DavidTree]

sure. we followers of Christ should not have any bad influences permeating our lives and the church. Cannot complain against that.

we are not told. That is why the parable is instilling a sense of patience until the kingdom reign is obvious.

You are kind of hunting for clues of a much deeper examination of the parables and eschatology. You can then easily dissuade yourself from investigating in a true sense or considering what I may share within the broader bible context. That certainly is your option.

we are not told.

Oh but we have been told my Brother in Christ

the parable is instilling a sense of patience until the kingdom reign is obvious.

100% CORRECT

You are kind of hunting for clues of a much deeper examination of the parables and eschatology.

i prefer pheasant and duck hunting as they taste GREAT

SEARCHING = As we speak to one another, the Holy Spirit is also speaking within us as HE guides us thru the Word of Truth

SEARCHING: "Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow."

There is no dissuasion upon me that is against you

 

[mikesw]

Oh but we have been told my Brother in Christ


100% CORRECT


i prefer pheasant and duck hunting as they taste GREAT

SEARCHING = As we speak to one another, the Holy Spirit is also speaking within us as HE guides us thru the Word of Truth

SEARCHING: "Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow."

There is no dissuasion upon me that is against you

I'm not trying to dissuade myself from what I am writing. At the moment my effort is in writing out the explanation for those searching what should follow in accord with the message about Christ and his work in this earth.

 

[Selah]

If we can take "eternal life" in the context of one verse, then eternal life is knowing God. (Joh 17:3). We appear to get that once we have truly followed Jesus. Resurrection in a main sense is an addition to that.

Eternal life is life never-ending. It’s for all eternity. Those who were saved and then stayed/stay faithful to God all their earthly lives will go through the First Resurrection.

 

[DavidTree]

I'm not trying to dissuade myself from what I am writing. At the moment my effort is in writing out the explanation for those searching what should follow in accord with the message about Christ and his work in this earth.

Awesome

Are you dissuaded to the answer to (c) = 'grows up' has already been given to us by the Lord in the Gospel and the Apostles letters and in Revelation.