LOL...... I am laughing so hard right now I can barely type.
Again... another words spoken in truth, truly spoken.
I am replying here because I am trying to avoid Presby2.
"I" have been a Presbyterian for 77 years. Since the very day my mother walked me into church for my (don't faint now) baby baptism.
"I" have been educated in that church of churchy things. And from the time I was a tot and could understand what mom and dad said I believed I was saved. NOT because of predestination but they said so and so did the church.
Of course there was the obligatory church schooling before I could be a member, and when that was completed around the age of 12 or 13
it was then, and only then that I could partake in Holy Communion.
OKAY... enough of that history.
I had never heard nor was taught of a thing called predestination, or of the self proclaimed Prophet John Calvin.
Not until I was a very old person... approaching one foot in the grave... by way of all the forum debates on the subject.
So I started to study about it and bible study almost as nauseum to understand the meaning.
I did not, nor do not know why if it is a fact that neither of the 2 churches I have been a member of... (current one for 52 years... ever
talked about it. It was only recently that I learned (read) our pastor has a fondness for Calvin View attachment 1086
I digress but just
A bit more history before I conclude.
An ancestor of mine at one time was a Vicar for(I believe) the Church of England (The paper on him has gone missing)
He got into a fight over baptism , of all things, and left the church. Made his way to Scotland and the Presbyterians, became a minister there.
Moved to New England, migrated to New York eventually to Virginia where he built his church he preached from.
My dad's family for all these generations upon generations have been... as was a familial expectation... Presbyterian.
My point is, in concluding.
I do not believe in predestination. I do not think John Calvins was thinking straight. And I think what is said about it in the Westminster Confession of Faith is balderdash.
My personal view is that I believe God pre-destined or pre-chose certain people for his purposes... Such as prophets like Jeramiah.
My personal view is that I believe verses like Eph 1: 11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: is for those that had a purpose for God's plan...AND NOT ALL.
My personal view is that I believe I have free will ...YES FREE WILL.
For if I was predestined by God , and having been lifelong in a church that believes such.... how can you explain that in the later decade of my life I have become certain that I possess free will. For the predestined believers certainly cannot think God would change me to be against that now could they?
Simply said.... Satan made Eve eat that fruit. Did God really predestine Adam follow her for the purposes of bringing death to them both?
OR did Adam chose to disobey God because he wanted to please his wife? IF you are a man, you should understand that concept.
Amen and thanks for sharing your background and testimony. Its good to hear you reject Calvins teachings on TULIP. I'm a former calvinist for 40 plus years. Just came out of it before starting this forum. We have many members here that remember when I was a calvinist and arguing against them on a daily basis. Whom the Son sets free is free indeed. I'm no longer in bondage to a man made systematic theology.
NO it does not.... It was exclusively for Jeremiah.... not us. God had a plan for him. Did he have a plan for you that would affect mankind?
The Call of Jeremiah. New International Version
“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations.”
New Living Translation
“I knew you before I formed you in your mother’s womb. Before you were born I set you apart and appointed you as my prophet to the nations.”
English Standard Version
“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations.”
Berean Standard Bible
“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I set you apart and appointed you as a prophet to the nations.”
King James Bible
Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
New King James Version
“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you; Before you were born I sanctified you; I ordained you a prophet to the nations.”
New American Standard Bible
“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, And before you were born I consecrated you; I have appointed you as a prophet to the nations.”
NASB 1995
“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, And before you were born I consecrated you; I have appointed you a prophet to the nations.”
NASB 1977
“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, And before you were born I consecrated you; I have appointed you a prophet to the nations.”
Legacy Standard Bible
“Before I formed you in the innermost parts I knew you, And before you came out from the womb I set you apart; I have given you as a prophet to the nations.”
Amplified Bible
“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you [and approved of you as My chosen instrument], And before you were born I consecrated you [to Myself as My own]; I have appointed you as a prophet to the nations.”
Christian Standard Bible
I chose you before I formed you in the womb; I set you apart before you were born. I appointed you a prophet to the nations.
Holman Christian Standard Bible
I chose you before I formed you in the womb; I set you apart before you were born. I appointed you a prophet to the nations.
American Standard Version
Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee, and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee; I have appointed thee a prophet unto the nations.
Aramaic Bible in Plain English
“Before I would form you in the womb I knew you, and before you would go out from the womb, I hallowed you, and I have given you as the Prophet to the nations
Brenton Septuagint Translation
Before I formed thee in the belly, I knew thee; and before thou camest forth from the womb, I sanctified thee; I appointed thee a prophet to the nations.
Contemporary English Version
"Jeremiah, I am your Creator, and before you were born, I chose you to speak for me to the nations."
Douay-Rheims Bible
Before I formed thee in the bowels of thy mother, I knew thee: and before thou camest forth out of the womb, I sanctified thee, and made thee a prophet unto the nations.
English Revised Version
Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee, and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee; I have appointed thee a prophet unto the nations.
GOD'S WORD® Translation
"Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you. Before you were born, I set you apart for my holy purpose. I appointed you to be a prophet to the nations."
Good News Translation
"I chose you before I gave you life, and before you were born I selected you to be a prophet to the nations."
International Standard Version
"I knew you before I formed you in the womb; I set you apart for me before you were born; I appointed you to be a prophet to the nations."
JPS Tanakh 1917
Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee, And before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee; I have appointed thee a prophet unto the nations.
Literal Standard Version
“Before I form you in the belly, I have known you; and before you come forth from the womb I have separated you; I have made you a prophet to the nations.”
Majority Standard Bible
“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I set you apart and appointed you as a prophet to the nations.”
New American Bible
Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I dedicated you, a prophet to the nations I appointed you.
NET Bible
"Before I formed you in your mother's womb I chose you. Before you were born I set you apart. I appointed you to be a prophet to the nations."
New Revised Standard Version
“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations.”
New Heart English Bible
"Before I formed you in the belly, I knew you. Before you came forth out of the womb, I sanctified you. I have appointed you a prophet to the nations."
Webster's Bible Translation
Before I formed thee in embryo I knew thee; and before thou wast born I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet to the nations.
World English Bible
“Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you. Before you were born, I sanctified you. I have appointed you a prophet to the nations.”
Young's Literal Translation
'Before I form thee in the belly, I have known thee; and before thou comest forth from the womb I have separated thee, a prophet to nations I have made thee.'
NO it does not.... It was exclusively for Jeremiah.... not us. God had a plan for him. Did he have a plan for you that would affect mankind?
The Call of Jeremiah. New International Version
“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations.”
New Living Translation
“I knew you before I formed you in your mother’s womb. Before you were born I set you apart and appointed you as my prophet to the nations.”
English Standard Version
“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations.”
Berean Standard Bible
“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I set you apart and appointed you as a prophet to the nations.”
King James Bible
Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
New King James Version
“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you; Before you were born I sanctified you; I ordained you a prophet to the nations.”
New American Standard Bible
“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, And before you were born I consecrated you; I have appointed you as a prophet to the nations.”
NASB 1995
“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, And before you were born I consecrated you; I have appointed you a prophet to the nations.”
NASB 1977
“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, And before you were born I consecrated you; I have appointed you a prophet to the nations.”
Legacy Standard Bible
“Before I formed you in the innermost parts I knew you, And before you came out from the womb I set you apart; I have given you as a prophet to the nations.”
Amplified Bible
“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you [and approved of you as My chosen instrument], And before you were born I consecrated you [to Myself as My own]; I have appointed you as a prophet to the nations.”
Christian Standard Bible
I chose you before I formed you in the womb; I set you apart before you were born. I appointed you a prophet to the nations.
Holman Christian Standard Bible
I chose you before I formed you in the womb; I set you apart before you were born. I appointed you a prophet to the nations.
American Standard Version
Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee, and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee; I have appointed thee a prophet unto the nations.
Aramaic Bible in Plain English
“Before I would form you in the womb I knew you, and before you would go out from the womb, I hallowed you, and I have given you as the Prophet to the nations
Brenton Septuagint Translation
Before I formed thee in the belly, I knew thee; and before thou camest forth from the womb, I sanctified thee; I appointed thee a prophet to the nations.
Contemporary English Version
"Jeremiah, I am your Creator, and before you were born, I chose you to speak for me to the nations."
Douay-Rheims Bible
Before I formed thee in the bowels of thy mother, I knew thee: and before thou camest forth out of the womb, I sanctified thee, and made thee a prophet unto the nations.
English Revised Version
Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee, and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee; I have appointed thee a prophet unto the nations.
GOD'S WORD® Translation
"Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you. Before you were born, I set you apart for my holy purpose. I appointed you to be a prophet to the nations."
Good News Translation
"I chose you before I gave you life, and before you were born I selected you to be a prophet to the nations."
International Standard Version
"I knew you before I formed you in the womb; I set you apart for me before you were born; I appointed you to be a prophet to the nations."
JPS Tanakh 1917
Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee, And before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee; I have appointed thee a prophet unto the nations.
Literal Standard Version
“Before I form you in the belly, I have known you; and before you come forth from the womb I have separated you; I have made you a prophet to the nations.”
Majority Standard Bible
“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I set you apart and appointed you as a prophet to the nations.”
New American Bible
Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I dedicated you, a prophet to the nations I appointed you.
NET Bible
"Before I formed you in your mother's womb I chose you. Before you were born I set you apart. I appointed you to be a prophet to the nations."
New Revised Standard Version
“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations.”
New Heart English Bible
"Before I formed you in the belly, I knew you. Before you came forth out of the womb, I sanctified you. I have appointed you a prophet to the nations."
Webster's Bible Translation
Before I formed thee in embryo I knew thee; and before thou wast born I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet to the nations.
World English Bible
“Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you. Before you were born, I sanctified you. I have appointed you a prophet to the nations.”
Young's Literal Translation
'Before I form thee in the belly, I have known thee; and before thou comest forth from the womb I have separated thee, a prophet to nations I have made thee.'
Your eyes saw my unformed substance; in your book were written, every one of them, the days that were formed for me, when as yet there was none of them.
And now the Lord says, he who formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob back to him; and that Israel might be gathered to him— for I am honored in the eyes of the Lord, and my God has become my strength—
To the choirmaster. A Psalm of David. O Lord, you have searched me and known me! You know when I sit down and when I rise up; you discern my thoughts from afar. You search out my path and my lying down and are acquainted with all my ways. Even before a word is on my tongue, behold, O Lord, you know it altogether. You hem me in, behind and before, and lay your hand upon me. ...
For you formed my inward parts; you knitted me together in my mother's womb. I praise you, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made. Wonderful are your works; my soul knows it very well. My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret, intricately woven in the depths of the earth. Your eyes saw my unformed substance; in your book were written, every one of them, the days that were formed for me, when as yet there was none of them.
Now the word of the Lord came to me, saying, “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations.”
The words of Jeremiah, the son of Hilkiah, one of the priests who were in Anathoth in the land of Benjamin, to whom the word of the Lord came in the days of Josiah the son of Amon, king of Judah, in the thirteenth year of his reign. It came also in the days of Jehoiakim the son of Josiah, king of Judah, and until the end of the eleventh year of Zedekiah, the son of Josiah, king of Judah, until the captivity of Jerusalem in the fifth month. Now the word of the Lord came to me, saying, “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations.” ...
For he will be great before the Lord. And he must not drink wine or strong drink, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit, even from his mother's womb.
Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.
Moses said to the Lord, “See, you say to me, ‘Bring up this people,’ but you have not let me know whom you will send with me. Yet you have said, ‘I know you by name, and you have also found favor in my sight.’
Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer, who formed you from the womb: “I am the Lord, who made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth by myself,
For you formed my inward parts; you knitted me together in my mother's womb. I praise you, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made. Wonderful are your works; my soul knows it very well.
For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.
My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret, intricately woven in the depths of the earth. Your eyes saw my unformed substance; in your book were written, every one of them, the days that were formed for me, when as yet there was none of them.
If your beliefs align with Scripture then what could you possibly be afraid of? During my time in CARM, I have been called every conceivable derogatory term imaginable but I didn't mind because it was my beliefs that were aligned with Scripture, not theirs.
Certainly true. And He did, I believe to every prophet and teacher in the bible.
But I cannot believe it to be true of every single person born.
That makes no sense.
what I would love to know, but cant, ifs how many God knew and chose for a purpose before birth that never had the chance because the woman wanted control over her own body.
I aim pretty certain that none of those idiot transgender people we in a plan of God's. So if he knew them before hand, what happened?
John
44 And Jesus cried out and said, “He who believes in Me, does not believe in Me but in Him who sent Me.
45 He who sees Me sees the One who sent Me.
46 I have come as Light into the world, so that everyone who believes in Me will not remain in darkness.
47 If anyone hears My sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world.
48 He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day.
49 For I did not speak on My own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me a commandment as to what to say and what to speak.
50 I know that His commandment is eternal life; therefore the things I speak, I speak just as the Father has told Me.”
John
44 And Jesus cried out and said, “He who believes in Me, does not believe in Me but in Him who sent Me.
45 He who sees Me sees the One who sent Me.
46 I have come as Light into the world, so that everyone who believes in Me will not remain in darkness.
47 If anyone hears My sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world.
48 He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day.
49 For I did not speak on My own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me a commandment as to what to say and what to speak.
50 I know that His commandment is eternal life; therefore the things I speak, I speak just as the Father has told Me.”
“He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them.”
OR
1 John 5:19 ESV / 4 helpful votes Helpful Not Helpful
We know that we are from God, and the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.
If you doubt the later... the best example of those who deny Jesus are LGBTQIA.... and Drag Queens, Women who tape down their sons penises,
and those who promote sex with animals. (i.e. Madonna's coffee table book.)
“He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them.”
OR
1 John 5:19 ESV / 4 helpful votes Helpful Not Helpful
We know that we are from God, and the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.
If you doubt the later... the best example of those who deny Jesus are LGBTQIA.... and Drag Queens, Women who tape down their sons penises,
and those who promote sex with animals. (i.e. Madonna's coffee table book.)
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