Johann
Well-known member
Go and play games somewhere else and don't forget to take your "sweets" before going to bed.
J.
What did Christ know and when did He or does He know it
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J.
civic
Well-known member
Projecting
civic
Well-known member
the scapegoat theory is EISEGESIS not Exegesis.
No one in the N.T. associates the scapegoat of Lev 14-16 with Jesus.
Jesus didin't
John the Baptist didn't
The Apostles didn't
God didn't.
Its ANTI- GOSPEL since Jesus dies for our sins according to the SCRIPTURE. He was put to death, not released.
He died for sin and was not released and set free for sin.
The Top 10 following facts you are ignoring :
1- the first goat was unto the Lord, not the scapegoat
2- the first goat died and was sacrificed unto the Lord
3- Jesus died as a sacrifice for sin unto the Lord
4- Jesus was not released and lived like the scapegoat
5- The N.T. never associates Jesus with the scapegoat that lived
6- The scapegoat theory is an unbiblical one just like PSA
7- The scapegoat did not atone for sin with blood
8- Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins
9- Jesus was not the scapegoat since His blood was poured out for the forgiveness of sins
10- Calling Jesus the scapegoat is eisegesis, not exegesis.
Conclusion: the scapegoat cannot be Jesus since the scapegoat never died or its blood was used to make atonement for sin.
hope this helps !!!
These are valid points I will have to examine the idea that Jesus is not the scapegoat.
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
Yet nothing prevents @Johann or anyone else to derive spiritual meanings from any fact in the Bible... as long as it is for personal spiritual development and it is not meant to be imposed to others as orthodoxy.
For example, someone could see in the event of the Israelites going across the Red Sea a prefiguration of baptism, since it occurred during the pass from slavery to freedom, just as in baptism leave a life of slavery to live a life of freedom.
As an analogy, I guess it would be valid and beautiful. But it could not be used in a debate as a proof that Israel was "baptized" collectively for the remissions of their sins.
If @Johann sees Christ in the scapegoat released to the desert, and that helps him to understand God's forgiveness, good for him.
Personally, I don't see a Person (Jesus Christ), but a process, represented in the slayed lamb and the released scapegoat.
The slayed lamb reminds me of dying (so that I can have a new life) and the released scapegoat to forgetting (letting go) the old life. Both, to me, are symbols of the same thing.
Killing my old life with a knife speaks about the immediate effect of God's grace... and killing my old life by letting it starve in the desert represents the long process of God's grace. Something like the process of forgiveness and transformation/regeneration/sanctification, that you have wisely considered as the two sides of the same coin.
Johann
Well-known member
Beautifully expressed, and isn't it remarkable that I find words of encouragement from you, yet receive none from him? I see profound typologies - the scapegoat -the the two goats, fully resonating with your insights.
By their fruits you will know them.
J.
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Johann
Well-known member
Scriptures to your profound statement @Pancho Frijoles
Leviticus 16:7-10 (LXX): The two goats on the Day of Atonement are presented before the Lord—one for sacrifice (slain) and the other as the scapegoat released into the wilderness.
Isaiah 53:6-7 (LXX): The suffering servant "as a lamb led to the slaughter" takes on the sins of many, evoking the slain lamb’s role in atonement.
John 1:29: John the Baptist identifies Jesus as the "Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world," linking Him to the sacrificial lamb.
Immediate Grace of Forgiveness
Hebrews 10:10-14: Christ’s once-for-all sacrifice for sin speaks to the immediate efficacy of God’s grace in granting forgiveness and sanctification.
Colossians 1:13-14: God delivers us from the power of darkness into the kingdom of His Son, highlighting the immediate transition through forgiveness.
Psalm 103:12: "As far as the east is from the west, so far has He removed our transgressions from us," illustrating the complete removal of sin, akin to the scapegoat's release.
Sanctification as a Process
Romans 12:1-2: The call to present our bodies as living sacrifices and be transformed by the renewing of our minds reflects the ongoing work of sanctification.
2 Corinthians 3:18: "We are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory," indicating the progressive nature of regeneration and sanctification.
Hebrews 10:14: "By one offering, He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified," encapsulating the dual nature of sanctification—positional and progressive.
Symbolism of Dying to Self and Letting Go
Romans 6:4-6: Baptism into Christ’s death symbolizes dying to the old self, so that we may walk in newness of life.
Galatians 2:20: "I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me," expressing the immediate death of the old life.
Ephesians 4:22-24: The exhortation to put off the old self and be renewed speaks to the ongoing nature of letting go and embracing the new self.
Forgiveness as Release and Transformation
Micah 7:19: God casts our sins into the depths of the sea, reflecting the finality of forgiveness (linked to the scapegoat).
Philippians 3:13-14: Paul speaks of forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, encapsulating the process of moving away from the old life.
2 Corinthians 5:17: "If anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has passed away, behold, the new has come," tying together regeneration and transformation.
Johann.
It was sent off into the wilderness never to be seen again.there is no "scapegoat" mentioned in the N.T.
and in leviticus the scapegoat lived, not died.
OOPS............................
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
I fully agree with your post 228, @Johann.
What I meant is that I don’t see those associations being made prospectively (ancient Hebrews looking into the future) but retrospectively (apostles looking into the past).
For example, Moses never explained the Israelites that the mana from heaven, or the rock that he hit to get water, were figures of Jesus Christ. Moses never explained that the High Priest was a figure of Christ. All those associations were made in the epistles of the NT looking into the past, finding those symbols and applying them to Christ.
So, you are doing the same than the apostles did. I see nothing wrong in what you do… particularly if that helps others to understand one aspect of God forgiveness, which implies to their our heart rid of guilt.
Too many people live with guilt, looking in expensive psychotherapy or in drug abuse relief for their guilt. Christians like you have a wonderful oopportunity to help those people by reminding them that Christ takes away that guilt to the desert, like the scapegoat sent to Azazel.
My only concern is that you get angry or frustrated because other Christians do not accept your view of the symbolism, and then you try to FORCE the symbolism. That’s why I encourage you to remember that such symbolic associations (and many more) are being made “a posteriori” and were not intended originally when Moses gave the Law.
What I meant is that I don’t see those associations being made prospectively (ancient Hebrews looking into the future) but retrospectively (apostles looking into the past).
For example, Moses never explained the Israelites that the mana from heaven, or the rock that he hit to get water, were figures of Jesus Christ. Moses never explained that the High Priest was a figure of Christ. All those associations were made in the epistles of the NT looking into the past, finding those symbols and applying them to Christ.
So, you are doing the same than the apostles did. I see nothing wrong in what you do… particularly if that helps others to understand one aspect of God forgiveness, which implies to their our heart rid of guilt.
Too many people live with guilt, looking in expensive psychotherapy or in drug abuse relief for their guilt. Christians like you have a wonderful oopportunity to help those people by reminding them that Christ takes away that guilt to the desert, like the scapegoat sent to Azazel.
My only concern is that you get angry or frustrated because other Christians do not accept your view of the symbolism, and then you try to FORCE the symbolism. That’s why I encourage you to remember that such symbolic associations (and many more) are being made “a posteriori” and were not intended originally when Moses gave the Law.
civic
Well-known member
the opposite of Jesus who died , pored out His blood and was seen man many over 40 days.
civic
Well-known member
So much for the scapegoat being a type of Jesus. No blood, no forgiveness. As the Song goes- Nothing but the Blood of Jesus !
Lets follow the BLOOD in both Testaments.
Hebrews 9:22
Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins.
Leviticus 17:11
For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for your souls upon the altar; for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul.
Leviticus 16:15-16
Aaron shall then slaughter the goat for the sin offering for the people and bring its blood behind the veil, and with its blood he must do as he did with the bull’s blood: He is to sprinkle it against the mercy seat and in front of it. / So he shall make atonement for the Most Holy Place because of the impurities and rebellious acts of the Israelites in regard to all their sins. He is to do the same for the Tent of Meeting which abides among them in the midst of their impurities
Matthew 26:28
This is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.
Romans 3:25
God presented Him as an atoning sacrifice in His blood through faith, in order to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance He had passed over the sins committed beforehand.
Romans 5:9
Therefore, since we have now been justified by His blood, how much more shall we be saved from wrath through Him!
1 Corinthians 11:25
In the same way, after supper He took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood; do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me.”
Revelation 7:14
“Sir,” I answered, “you know.” So he replied, “These are the ones who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
Hebrews 9
Now the first covenant had regulations for worship and also an earthly sanctuary. 2 A tabernacle was set up. In its first room were the lampstand and the table with its consecrated bread; this was called the Holy Place. 3 Behind the second curtain was a room called the Most Holy Place, 4 which had the golden altar of incense and the gold-covered ark of the covenant. This ark contained the gold jar of manna, Aaron’s staff that had budded, and the stone tablets of the covenant. 5 Above the ark were the cherubim of the Glory, overshadowing the atonement cover. But we cannot discuss these things in detail now.
6 When everything had been arranged like this, the priests entered regularly into the outer room to carry on their ministry. 7 But only the high priest entered the inner room, and that only once a year, and never without blood, which he offered for himself and for the sins the people had committed in ignorance. 8 The Holy Spirit was showing by this that the way into the Most Holy Place had not yet been disclosed as long as the first tabernacle was still functioning. 9 This is an illustration for the present time, indicating that the gifts and sacrifices being offered were not able to clear the conscience of the worshiper. 10 They are only a matter of food and drink and various ceremonial washings—external regulations applying until the time of the new order.
The Blood of Christ
11 But when Christ came as high priest of the good things that are now already here,[a] he went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not made with human hands, that is to say, is not a part of this creation. 12 He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, thus obtaining[b] eternal redemption. 13 The blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who are ceremonially unclean sanctify them so that they are outwardly clean. 14 How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death,[c] so that we may serve the living God!15 For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.
16 In the case of a will,[d] it is necessary to prove the death of the one who made it, 17 because a will is in force only when somebody has died; it never takes effect while the one who made it is living. 18 This is why even the first covenant was not put into effect without blood. 19 When Moses had proclaimed every command of the law to all the people, he took the blood of calves, together with water, scarlet wool and branches of hyssop, and sprinkled the scroll and all the people. 20 He said, “This is the blood of the covenant, which God has commanded you to keep.”[e] 21 In the same way, he sprinkled with the blood both the tabernacle and everything used in its ceremonies. 22 In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.
23 It was necessary, then, for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these sacrifices, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24 For Christ did not enter a sanctuary made with human hands that was only a copy of the true one; he entered heaven itself, now to appear for us in God’s presence. 25 Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own. 26 Otherwise Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But he has appeared once for all at the culmination of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27 Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, 28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.
Hebrews 10
The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First he says:
16 “This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds.”[b]
17 Then he adds:
“Their sins and lawless acts
I will remember no more.”[c]
18 And where these have been forgiven, sacrifice for sin is no longer necessary.
19 Therefore, brothers and sisters, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus, 20 by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, his body, 21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22 let us draw near to God with a sincere heart and with the full assurance that faith brings, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water. 23 Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful. 24 And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds, 25 not giving up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but encouraging one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching.
Hebrews 12
But you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, 23 to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the Judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24 to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.
Hebrews 13
The high priest carries the blood of animals into the Most Holy Place as a sin offering, but the bodies are burned outside the camp. 12 And so Jesus also suffered outside the city gate to make the people holy through his own blood.
Conclusion: The forgiveness of sins is found only in the blood of Christ- His life which He gave as a sacrifice for sin. That is the heart of the Atonement. It is what the New Covenant is found upon His blood/life which was given for our sins. Forgiveness is only found in His blood/life that He gave on our behalf. That is how are sins are removed and taken away. That is what the Law required for sin was the blood of the animal/sacrifice. This is sound exegesis, not eisegesis like the scapegoat theory. On Christ the solid ROCK I stand all other ground is sinking sand- in fact its quicksand.
Nothing but the Blood of Jesus
1 What can wash away my sin?
Nothing but the blood of Jesus.
What can make me whole again?
Nothing but the blood of Jesus.
Refrain:
O precious is the flow
that makes me white as snow;
no other fount I know;
nothing but the blood of Jesus.
2 For my pardon this I see:
nothing but the blood of Jesus.
For my cleansing this my plea:
nothing but the blood of Jesus. [Refrain]
3 Nothing can for sin atone:
nothing but the blood of Jesus.
Naught of good that I have done:
nothing but the blood of Jesus. [Refrain]
4 This is all my hope and peace:
nothing but the blood of Jesus.
This is all my righteousness:
nothing but the blood of Jesus. [Refrain]
My hope
My hope is built on nothing less
Than Jesus' blood and righteousness
I dare not trust the sweetest frame
But wholly lean on Jesus' name
On Christ the solid rock I stand
All other ground is sinking sand
All other ground is sinking sand
When darkness
When darkness veils His lovely face
I'll rest on His unchanging grace
In every high and stormy day
My anchor holds within the veil
On Christ the solid rock I stand
All other ground is sinking sand
All other ground is sinking sand
And His oath
His oath, His covenant, His blood
Support me in the whelming flood
When all around my soul gives way
He then is all my hope and stay
On Christ the solid rock I stand
All other ground is sinking sand
All other ground is sinking sand
Let's just revisit and visualise it
Just think about what that is gonna look like
When we hear that trunpet sound
When He shall come
When He shall come with trumpet sound
Oh, may I then in Him be found
Dressed in His righteousness alone
Faultless to stand before the throne
On Christ the solid rock I stand
All other ground is sinking sand
All other ground is sinking sand
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Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
Well, the NT also uses other symbols to represent the mission of Jesus, not only bloody ones.
We have
- the mana from heaven (John 6:30-35)
- the rock that Moses hit (1 Cor 10:4)
- the person of the high priest (Heb 4:14,15)
- the sabbath (Heb 4:9,10)
civic
Well-known member
Thanks for making my point much appreciated. You see the 4 you listed from the OT are affirmed in the NT.
The scapegoat is not.
Thanks once again. Amen !
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
I appreciate words of encouragement from you, from him and from anyone.
What we all need to understand (all, including me) is that being in disagreement does not mean disqualifying each other.
Brother,
I agree, but the concept is there between a covenant and trust, and I used trust since it is simpler to understand in our age.
A trust is a legal arrangement where a grantor gives a trustee the right to manage assets for the benefit of a beneficiary. The trustee has a fiduciary duty to act in the best interest of the beneficiaries according to the grantor of the trust
A covenant is an agreement between parties. In the New covenant God justified everyone to life in the death of His Son and appointed His Son to be the mediator/administrator of His New Covenant with mankind.
What you said is true, but in order to receive the free gift of justification one must do something. That something is act upon faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. God laid the sins of us all, everyone, on His Son who carried them away in His body on the cross. In order to receive this wonderful grace one must hear the Good News and believe it. If one does not, they die in their sins for the gift must be received by faith. There is no automatic justification in the New Covenant; this would be universalism.
God gave a New covenant to all mankind and set the parameters. A covenant is a binding agreement between parties. If you desire to enter into the New Covenant agreement with God, you must repent and believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, who then He gives one the right to become a child of God.
Jesus is the mediator/administrator of the New Covenant, "that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way. This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all"
The new Covenant is where "declares the Lord: I will put my laws on their hearts, and write them on their minds,” then he adds, “I will remember their sins and their lawless deeds no more.” Where there is forgiveness of these, there is no longer any offering for sin."
God has justified to life everyone in the sacrificial death of His Son. This justification must be received by faith. No faith no free gift.
The Apostle Paul makes it clear in 1 Cor 5:10-21 these points.
- All mankind must appear before the judgement seat of Jesus Christ: "we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad. "
- Jesus Christ died for all mankind because all were dead, and He died for all so they would live for Him: "because we judge thus: that if One died for all, then all died; and He died for all, that those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for Him who died for them and rose again."
- We who live our life for Him who died for us, no longer judge anyone by the flesh (for Christ has died to save them, They are His): "Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer."
- If anyone believes in Jesus they are made new: "Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new."
- All of this is from God who reconciled us to Himself who gave the ministry of reconciliation: "Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation,"
- The ministry of reconciliation: "that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation."
- As authorized representatives of God, as though God were pleading through us: "Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christ's behalf, be reconciled to God."
- For Jesus Christ who never sinned offered His life for our sins to make us right with God: "For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him."
That He died for all so they would live for Him and be made a new person.
That all of this is from God.
That God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself.
That God made His sinless Son a sin offering for us to make us right with Him (to justify us to life with His Son).
Note: In my prior post I stated, "This means God gave Him irrevocably for our sins making us justified in His sight."
I hurriedly left out "being received by faith" at the end of the sentence. It should be, "This means God gave Him irrevocably for our sins making us justified in His sight, being received by faith".
God Bless
@civic @Johann
I think the Lev 16:5,8-10 gives us insight to the two goats on the Day of Atonement.
Both goats serve as the single sin offering.
Lev 16:5 'And from the company of the sons of Israel he taketh two kids of the goats for a sin-offering, and one ram for a burnt-offering;
Lev 16:8-9 'And Aaron hath given lots over the two goats, one lot for Jehovah, and one lot for a goat of departure (removal); (9) and Aaron hath brought near the goat on which the lot for Jehovah hath gone up, and hath made it a sin-offering.
The goat that was not slain is still part of the single sin offering
Lev 16:10 'And the goat on which the lot for a goat of departure hath gone up is caused to stand living before Jehovah to make atonement by it, to send it away for a goat of departure (removal) into the wilderness.
I think we can surmise the blood from goat that was slain provided forgiveness of sins, for without blood there is no forgiveness of sin.
And the goat that was kept alive and serving as part of the single sin offering on this Day illustrates to the people the guilt of their sins have been carried away from them.
The Day of Atonement is significant that it represents God's giving of His Son for our sins, to atone by His innocent blood providing for our complete forgiveness and the removal of sin's guilt from our conscience that we may serve God.
The Day that Jesus died for our sins on a cross and carried away our sins is in essence the Day of Atonement, with God being the One who laid upon Him the sins of us all. We are literally in God's presence and He in ours. We are joined in spirit, one. Forgiven with no guilt of sin! Praise our Living God who loves us and has such wondrous mercy!
1Jn 3:5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin.
1Pe 2:24 who Himself bore (took away, carried) our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness—by whose stripes you were healed.
God Bless
I think the Lev 16:5,8-10 gives us insight to the two goats on the Day of Atonement.
Both goats serve as the single sin offering.
Lev 16:5 'And from the company of the sons of Israel he taketh two kids of the goats for a sin-offering, and one ram for a burnt-offering;
Lev 16:8-9 'And Aaron hath given lots over the two goats, one lot for Jehovah, and one lot for a goat of departure (removal); (9) and Aaron hath brought near the goat on which the lot for Jehovah hath gone up, and hath made it a sin-offering.
The goat that was not slain is still part of the single sin offering
Lev 16:10 'And the goat on which the lot for a goat of departure hath gone up is caused to stand living before Jehovah to make atonement by it, to send it away for a goat of departure (removal) into the wilderness.
I think we can surmise the blood from goat that was slain provided forgiveness of sins, for without blood there is no forgiveness of sin.
And the goat that was kept alive and serving as part of the single sin offering on this Day illustrates to the people the guilt of their sins have been carried away from them.
The Day of Atonement is significant that it represents God's giving of His Son for our sins, to atone by His innocent blood providing for our complete forgiveness and the removal of sin's guilt from our conscience that we may serve God.
The Day that Jesus died for our sins on a cross and carried away our sins is in essence the Day of Atonement, with God being the One who laid upon Him the sins of us all. We are literally in God's presence and He in ours. We are joined in spirit, one. Forgiven with no guilt of sin! Praise our Living God who loves us and has such wondrous mercy!
1Jn 3:5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin.
1Pe 2:24 who Himself bore (took away, carried) our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness—by whose stripes you were healed.
God Bless
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