The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
There are a lot of things about the Roman Catholic Church that are not biblical, but the one I least understand is the veneration of Mary. How did that start?
Veneration of Mary
- Thread starter The Rogue Tomato
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You mean a lot “ you personally think “ is not biblical.
She is kecharotomene - completed in grace .
Have you called her blessed? as scripture says you will?
Are you honoured if she comes to you As mother of your Lord?
Do you ask for her help knowing a davidic queen is given the power of intercession with the king, we saw at Cana , her time has now come?
She is mother of all who keep the commandments , why do you not speaker to her so?
We know the prayers of saints are there at the throne of God, how much more so of the greatest saint.
We honour her as mother of Lord, we call her blessed, we ask her to pray for us.
Why do you object? Is she not a saint in your eyes?
No, because that would be praying to her when only God is the proper recipient of prayer.
Latria. Hyperdulia. Look them up.
So when you ask others to “ pray for you” , that makes them God in your opinion?
I don't need to look them up. I already know what the RCC teaches.
False comparison.
1 Kings 8:38-39
whatever prayer...is made...then hear in heaven...for You alone know the hearts of all the sons of men.
Only God fully knows the hearts of all, so only God is the proper recipient of prayer.
(1) Prayer can be done by speaking only within the heart.
Genesis 24:45
Before I had finished speaking in my heart, behold, Rebekah came out with her jar on her shoulder, and went down to the spring and drew, and I said to her, ‘Please let me drink.’
Therefore, prayer it is not to be thought of as simply 'asking another person to pray for you.' Prayers are also done (2) in a vast number of different languages, (3) by myriads of people (4) all at once and at various times. Even when multiple people audibly addressed the commander in Acts 21:34 he was unable to understand what they were saying to him. All such communication whether spoken audibly or only within the heart would present no difficulty for the omniscient God (Ezekeil 11:5).
I tell married RC's when they pull out that old asking others to pray for you line: Just think in your head that you want chicken tonight for dinner and speak it only within your heart to your wife. When she cooks something else besides that then tell her you are disappointed with her for not cooking chicken as you had specifically asked her.
Let me know her reaction.
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You clearly do need to look it up. You are wrong.
An assertion without proof.
Bob Carabbio
Well-known member
The Goddess DIANA already was a significant religious presence in Roman Culture. MY ASSUMPTION is that the early Roman Church, trying to gain acceptance among the PAGANS, simply re-purposed Diana as their version of the real Mary, Jesus' mom, to make their version of "Christianity" more palatable to the Romans at the time. That's been "Roman Catholic" methodology from the beginning. Even Martin Luther had bought into the "Marion fantasy" as a trained Catholic Theologian.
"Purgatory" was another Pagan belief adopted at the time.
AND, of course: "Canonized Saints" who've proven their ability to "achieve God's favor" (by coughing up at least two miracles when prayed to) are another PAGAN inclusion.
Frank Russell
Well-known member
It started because the Gnostic groups would teach that Jesus was a ghost who had supernatural powers, and not an actual human.
The overemphasis began with enshrining the mother of Jesus as the mother of God.
Since a human is born from a mother, confessing Mary as the Mother of God became a package deal with the hypostatic union in that Jesus is 100% human and 100% God.
In the old church, it was assumed that Mary was pure and did not have sex all of her life. However, English translations make it difficult to assert that idea.
I am not sure why Mary was attributed as having a "saving office" where she brings us the "gifts of eternal salvation." However, that is how it started.
This chapter of the catechism speaks on the topic at length.
One day you might even study church history, I see no sign you ever have.
Bob Carabbio
Well-known member
Why would I bother to study anything that will only reflect the RELIGIOUS PARADIGM of the folks who wrote it???
FACE IT - the Catholic "Blessed Virgin" is as PHONY as a $3 bill, so is their "Purgatory", and their "Paedobaptism". "Church history" won't be ANY HELP AT ALL with Roman Catholic Non-Biblical FOOLISHNESS.
Face it . your problem is phony sola scriptura , the man made tradition of the reformation, that allows you all to make up your own version in direct contradiction to scripture, and you only argue with us because you all disagree with each other.
You should listen to the sources Jesus appointed, not put your intellect over His.
It seems you don’t know enough scripture even to “call no man foolish.”
As for the blessed virgin , she is Gods most perfect human. How dare you insult her!
And to prove you are - as always- wrong she prophesied and performed a miracle so that all would see and believe, including believe in purgatory.
You still have time to convert rather than dig a deeper hole for yourself but your pride will not allow it.
Frank Russell
Well-known member
Jesus, is the most perfect human. (hypostatic union)
Frank Russell
Well-known member
Truly I tell you, among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist; yet whoever is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. (Matthew 11:11)
Therefore, John the Baptizer was greater than Mary in terms of birth.
Mary was not mentioned in scripture regarding her acts after a second birth.
However, greatness in the kingdom of God is based on the greatness of God Himself. (so why boast of any flesh?)
The egotistical arguments of fleshly bloodlines is meaningless. The common argument among Catholics, "since she is the mother of Jesus, shouldn't she have the title?" it is a similar fleshly reasoning of a congress of saints praying on our behalf. As if God wouldn't listen to a prayer in His only son's name?
The biblical Mary has a very important role, establishing that Jesus the divine was born human. This is a retrospective role since people believed weird things about Jesus after the apostles passed away.
Therefore, John the Baptizer was greater than Mary in terms of birth.
Mary was not mentioned in scripture regarding her acts after a second birth.
However, greatness in the kingdom of God is based on the greatness of God Himself. (so why boast of any flesh?)
The egotistical arguments of fleshly bloodlines is meaningless. The common argument among Catholics, "since she is the mother of Jesus, shouldn't she have the title?" it is a similar fleshly reasoning of a congress of saints praying on our behalf. As if God wouldn't listen to a prayer in His only son's name?
The biblical Mary has a very important role, establishing that Jesus the divine was born human. This is a retrospective role since people believed weird things about Jesus after the apostles passed away.
Bob Carabbio
Well-known member
Chuckle!!!! Obviously a "True believer", who doesn't even take seriously the BIBLE that his "Religious system" claims to have created.
Oh, I WOULD NEVER INSULT the Real Mary, Jesus' earthly mother. Protestants are THE ONLY group that properly praises and venerates the REAL Biblical Mary. Your religious system is being led around by the NOSE, by a demonic Phantasm.
You just did insult her. Again.
, “ protestants” have no idea WHAT they believe . You all believe different things , because they put their intellect over Jesus in direct contradiction to scripture, not to “ lean on your own understanding.
I was a protestabt till I studied history , which leads to rome.
so your illinformed anti historical anti catholic tropes have no traction with me.
I will not respond to you again till you start studying the early church, tradition and authority, not the I’ll informed anti catholic hate manual.
Frank Russell
Well-known member
I recall that the fruit of the spirit is love, joy, peace; patience, kindness, goodness; faithfulness, gentleness, and self control.
However, in the above post, I detect none of these and reflect on the last half of James chapter 3.
However, in the above post, I detect none of these and reflect on the last half of James chapter 3.
Bob Carabbio
Well-known member
Actually, we're pretty united in the ESSENTIAL (Salvation by FAITH), and all over the place about peripherals. Luther got THAT ONE THING RIGHT:
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
What's you're "Roman Catholic workaround" for that??
Chuckle!!!! Good bye. Enjoy your "Tradition". I don't think you'll appreciate where it takes you.
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