Bob Carabbio
Well-known member
Nope. "Pelagianism" has nothing to do with any of that.
Unraveling the confusion of God’s Decree: 1689 Baptist Confession of Faith
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praise_yeshua
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So much for the Calvinist position of Providence and Foreknowledge. Such beliefs require the narrative that "God made humans a fallen creature".
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
Neither am I fond of "Calvinism", although I often use it just because it's a common shorthand. I don't even know if I'm a Calvinist, because I am not familiar with the details of Calvinism or WCF Reformed.
atpollard
Well-known member
You must be ... no Arminian could be that mean!
civic
Well-known member
haha good oneYou must be ... no Arminian could be that mean!
makesends
Well-known member
"Fallen creature" is not the same as, "created fallen". "Predestined to condemnation", now, is another matter. God uses mean, including Adam's disobedience and our resulting sinful nature and our disbelief, to accomplish what he has decreed.
Rockson
Well-known member
Sorry but it staggers the mind that people can believe what you just said. So God decrees according to you ALL THINGS. So when God said to Moses out of frustration and exasperation towards Israel for not going into the land, when he said ,
How long will this people provoke me? and how long will it be ere they believe me, for all the signs which I have shewed among them? …Num 14:22-27
So Moses in real terms could have said to God, "What are you meaning in saying you're provoked??? We all know that you're using Israel's rebellion into what you wanted all along right? How is it that you're not pleased that everything is going according to plan???? So if everything is going the way you wanted it I can't rightly comprehend that you should be upset about anything!"
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
I believe God's Character prevents "predestination to condemnation" from being possible. I believe such a position attributes God with dishonesty.
2Co 4:2 But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.
God takes man in his own craftiness.....
Job 5:13 He taketh the wise in their own craftiness:
1Co 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.
Eph 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
makesends
Well-known member
It staggers the mind that you would think God is altogether like us. You think God was frustrated like we get frustrated? Do you know what it is for God to be exasperated? Did you not know that God put Moses there for the very reason that he came up with next? To "stand in the gap" between God and Israel so that God would not destroy them.
makesends
Well-known member
No point in 'preaching' to me about dishonesty. It doesn't make your point. All you've done here is to say that you disagree and that you think my position makes God out to be dishonest.
When man reads, he misunderstands because of his assumptions. Is what it is.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
I never claimed superiority. I said I believe to be true. No "preaching" to you at all.
I posted verses that deal with the craftiness of man. I believe such a position is attributing "craftiness" to God. It presents a scenario where God's intent in creation is not clear and is not in keeping with His own character.
In like manner, I believe you're actually not "making your point".
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
Can you describe this "complex" association of means wherein God is the originator?
God raised up Moses, however Israel did as they pleased. Appeal to the lack of complete destruction isn't proof that God intended the limited success of Moses.
Rockson
Well-known member
God was frustrated because he was provoked! The Bible says he was. It seems you try a little trick here though. You ask was he frustrated like we? You're trying to push that he wasn't REALLY provoked or mad by saying LIKE WE. Will you acknowledge that God was upset here or not? If you're going to hold that no he wasn't really that he was just putting it on and really just leaving a false impression then say so. In fact (no offence) but you don't have to say so for when one takes the wraps off of what you're saying that's EXACTLY what you're saying.
Yes I DO know what it's like for God at times to feel this way. And so does anyone who reads the Bible. In Num 14:12 you can read that God even wanted to strike them down with a plague and destroy them, and then he'd make Moses into a greater nation. So that answers your question above.
God had Moses to be a deliverer and to be the peoples leader as they would go into the Promised Land. period. Even Moses had the privilege take away from him for an act of disobedience. The passages DID NOT say or imply God even wanted Moses to stand in the gap for them at a certain particular time. In fact in when Moses did intercede for them in Num 32:10 he told Moses to LEAVE HIM ALONE.....he had reached a point where he wanted to destroy them.
He wasn't interested in hearing Moses' intercession. God did however listen to Moses and showed mercy to the people. Thing is though Makesends with your Calvinistic paradigm you're always making God into playing an insincere game.....he says things but he's not really meaning them. You would have it God was not really upset with the people's rebellion......how could he be for after all....according to you it was all his plan to begin with.
You can carry that over too into the New Testament where Jesus said a similar statement, "How long shall I put up with you!: Mk 9:19 To you everything was fine.....or when it says the Holy Spirit can be grieved.....well why would he be if everything is according to plan.
You just can't rightly answer that with your paradigm. You really are basically putting out that God is always only playing a game of make believe. Worry not....God can't ever really be grieved, not really! All is God's plan! Some might consider me presumptuous in saying this but I think God would say "How long are you Calvinists going to keep putting out this nonsense!"
makesends
Well-known member
What I meant by "preaching" is your posting those verses. The fact the Bible talks about craftiness and dishonesty doesn't show that my position makes God out to be crafty and dishonest. My point is that God's word and work is the default —our view of it, and our misunderstanding of it, is irrelevant.
makesends
Well-known member
Sure it is. God made a promise to Abraham, and he will see it to completion. He put Moses there as part of the means of bringing it to pass, instead of doing what Israel deserved.
makesends
Well-known member
I'm not trying a 'little trick'. It's an important point. God is not like us. And no, the Bible doesn't say he was frustrated, only provoked. God was very angry, I'm not dodging that —it was not a put-on. In fact, I think he was more angry than your apparent notion of petulance. And no, that is NOT what I am saying; you are beating up a strawman.
No, you don't know what it's like for God to feel anything. None of us do. And no, Numbers 14:12 doesn't say God wanted anything. You don't know what it is like for God to want something, either. You are adding words to what Numbers says there.
Psalm 106:23 "Therefore He said that He would destroy them, If Moses, His chosen one, had not stood in the gap before Him, To turn away His wrath from destroying them."
What —did Moses force him to hear his intercession?? No, again, I did not say he was not really upset. In fact, I believe he was infinitely angry. But your anthropomorphisms are not warranted. God is not like us.
God is not insincere, though he has not only the right, but the ability, to say things in terms we will take anthropomorphically, because we don't know how to do otherwise. That doesn't mean that we see him rightly. What is amazing to me is that he can do that, and his words be faithful and true, precisely true, but our understanding necessarily falls short.
He planned to be grieved, is the obvious answer. Do you think Adam's sin was an accident? Was Calvary planned from the beginning or was it a patch up of a mess?
Nope. It is your view of Calvinism that considers it making God out to be playing. It is true, that God condescends to speak our language, even according to some semblance of our ability to think. That does not mean that our way of thinking is without error. We necessarily think, 'anger', 'want', etc, mean the same thing when they are about God, as they do when they are about us. We do this without even considering that he is so unlike us that we must not trust the implications that result from our assumptions. We get an idea, but there is too much we do not understand.
God is allowed to use anthropomorphisms and other ways of speaking according to our ability to understand. That does not translate into 'we do understand', when applying these things to God. Take for example, the word, Omnipotent. Did you know that some people consider that to mean that God can do things that are logically self-contradictory, like, to make another God equal to himself? It certainly does encompass abilities that we are clueless about. But it implies other attributes that suggest a point of view completely different from ours —not just bigger and stronger.
Rockson
Well-known member
Sorry but I'd say that you are. You're trying to minimize that God was frustrated, provoked or any other term you want to use. You try to say that he doesn't get that way like us.....what you're really saying is it was his plan all the time.....that he REALLY wanted them to rebel.
The point is you're trying to say what all Calvinists try to say that yes God got angry but hold on now.....their rebellion was his plan all the time. Just nonsense.
He already expressed how he felt about it. ANGRY.
I did not. And that verse above did not say God didn't want to destroy them. He did. And it did not say God put in Moses to stand in the gap for them at that particular time. He did however and God responded. You're still back at the place of trying to say God really did want Israel to rebel and that his being provoked was a put on.
He certainly IS NOT like how Calvinists portray him.....Claiming he's provoked and angry but nope ....not really.....he really wanted it all the time.
It was not something God wanted to see happen.
You're playing checkers. God is playing chess. You just can't seem to understand that a plan can be made to take care of a fall out....to you that demands in you he must have wanted it. That would be like saying one can put a spare tire in their offspring's car and therefore that proves the Father wanted that tire to blow.
There you go again.....swinging back into implying God wasn't really and truly upset with their rebellion. Oh you say he used such words yes.....but I mean but we just can't take from that what he meant! So here comes now to the forefront your denial of what the Bible stated.....your roll out of God ordained it anyway.....come on anyone should be able to see what you're trying to do and that is neutralize and minimize the meaning of the text.
That's a strawman. No one claims their way of thinking about things is without any error on every subject . There are things we can claim that on. Jesus is God and deity. There are a great many other things we can claim to be without error on as well. Sorry Makesends but your view on the character of God is just that....ERROR. Please consider that.
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The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
"Was Adam's sin an accident?"
God planned it to happen (there's a 50cent word for this, but I forget what it is). Any other conclusion would mean God is an idiot. Only an idiot would place a forbidden fruit in a garden, tell Adam and Eve not to touch it, allow the serpent into the garden, and then be surprised that the serpent managed to get Eve to take a bite.
God planned it to happen (there's a 50cent word for this, but I forget what it is). Any other conclusion would mean God is an idiot. Only an idiot would place a forbidden fruit in a garden, tell Adam and Eve not to touch it, allow the serpent into the garden, and then be surprised that the serpent managed to get Eve to take a bite.
civic
Well-known member
Where does the Bible say God planned / predestined Adams sin or satans sin ?
Foreknowledge is not determinism.
makesends
Well-known member
So it was an accident? Was Satan's fall also by accident?Where does the Bible say God planned / predestined Adams sin or satans sin ?
Foreknowledge is not determinism.
Does not [your version of] foreknowledge of all things, yet creating anyway —again, with full knowledge of the results of that creating— imply intentional causation? How not?
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