Trinitarian Training

[amazing grace]

Sorry. You spoke of another Jesus.
I remain confused whenever a unitarian says Jesus did not preexist. that is sort of meaningless wording. I suppose that is one problem of unitarian interpretation methods (if there is such a thing). Certainly Jesus did not pre-exist as if there were a physical body of Jesus somewhere other than earth and then suddenly appeared on earth. the name Jesus (or Yeshua) did not exist for a body that had not been born at a time like 5BC. But the divine One did pre-exist in accord with scriptures. It would be very stupid wording for Jesus to say "Before Abraham was, I am" or to say "restore the glory I had with you before the world was"

I remain confused whenever a unitarian says Jesus did not preexist. that is sort of meaningless wording. I suppose that is one problem of unitarian interpretation methods (if they have any method). Certainly Jesus did not pre-exist as if there were a physical body of Jesus somewhere other than earth and then suddenly appeared on earth. the name Jesus (or Yeshua) did not exist for a body that had not been born at a time like 5BC. But the divine One did pre-exist in accord with scriptures. It would be very stupid wording for Jesus to say "Before Abraham was, I am" or to say "restore the glory I had with you before the world was" unless he meant his divinity. It would not make sense for being about prophecy of him

Maybe this was just a duplicate response . . .

'scuse me . . . saying Jesus did not preexist is the same as saying the Son did not preexist. . . Either works dependent upon which Trinitarian you are in a discussion with. And I have certainly not spoken of another Jesus.

When saying the divine One did preexist are you speaking of God himself? If you are, that of course is non debatable - God always was . . . God always existed.

Yea, just as the unbelieving Jews misunderstood the statement Jesus made in regard to Abraham - it's still being misunderstood today. AND yes, Jesus was before Abraham . . . Gen. 3:15 is a prophecy concerning the 'offspring (seed) of the woman' - so in the foreknowledge and plan of God - Jesus existed.

As for the glory Jesus was praying for - I glorified you on earth, having accomplished the work that you gave me to do. And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed. . . . it was glory God had promised him to be given when he accomplished the work God gave him to do . . . Jesus had to suffer, die and be raised before he would be glorified.
And he said to them, “O foolish ones, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken! Was it not necessary that the Christ should suffer these things and enter into his glory?” And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he interpreted to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning himself. Jesus expounded upon the OT scripture explaining the things concerning himself . . . his suffering and his entering into his glory.

 

[mikesw]

Maybe this was just a duplicate response . . .

'scuse me . . . saying Jesus did not preexist is the same as saying the Son did not preexist. . . Either works dependent upon which Trinitarian you are in a discussion with. And I have certainly not spoken of another Jesus.

When saying the divine One did preexist are you speaking of God himself? If you are, that of course is non debatable - God always was . . . God always existed.

Yea, just as the unbelieving Jews misunderstood the statement Jesus made in regard to Abraham - it's still being misunderstood today. AND yes, Jesus was before Abraham . . . Gen. 3:15 is a prophecy concerning the 'offspring (seed) of the woman' - so in the foreknowledge and plan of God - Jesus existed.

As for the glory Jesus was praying for - I glorified you on earth, having accomplished the work that you gave me to do. And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed. . . . it was glory God had promised him to be given when he accomplished the work God gave him to do . . . Jesus had to suffer, die and be raised before he would be glorified.
And he said to them, “O foolish ones, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken! Was it not necessary that the Christ should suffer these things and enter into his glory?” And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he interpreted to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning himself. Jesus expounded upon the OT scripture explaining the things concerning himself . . . his suffering and his entering into his glory.

and in pre-existence God became flesh. Quite obvious. The difficulty is understanding how God does this. I guess this is why unitarians stumble over the stumbling stone

 

[Runningman]

Instead of running away to all those other Trinitarian verses that you always misinterpret, as I've shown you countless times, why don't you stand your unitarian ground with John 1:1c and John 1:14 and argue for your misguided cause? The reason why you don't is because you can't.

Let's take a peak at some of the items on your massive list of blunders.

1. You can't prove the Word is God
2. You have no examples of the Word in the Old Testament doing anything
3. You can't prove Jesus was ever called The Word
4. You can't prove the Word incarnated
5. You turn a blind eye to the Word explicitly being called a thing in 1 John 1:1-3
6. You ignored Jesus explicitly stating that he is a creation in Revelation 3:14
7. You reject the Father's exclusive deity as clearly stated in John 17:3, 1 Cor. 8:6, Ephesians 4:6

The more I talk to you guys, the more it has become crystal clear that trinitarianism is the prophesied anti-Christ religion.

 

[amazing grace]

Do you believe the Word existed before Jesus?

AND DO NOT GO THERE WITH THE WORD IS NOT A NAME. I DO NOT KNOW YOUR AGE BUT I CAN GUARANTEE YOU THAT IF I SAID I GOT AN AUTOGRAPH FROM THE BOSS YOU WOULD KNOW EXACTLY WHO I WAS REFERRING TO.

There is only one of the three that has what my mama would call "a good Christian" name....

Yes, I believe the word existed before Jesus - God created with his word in the beginning - in all the places in Genesis where 'And God said' - God created with his spoken word. Correct the 'word' is not a name.
I don't see what my age has to do with anything but I am 73 years young.
If you told me you got an autograph from the boss - I wouldn't know exactly who you were referring to .... it would depend - your 'boss' as in your work place or 'boss' as in Bruce Springsteen?

You start with God who said

Ex 3:14 And God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And He said, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’ ” followed by

Ex 3:15 Moreover God said to Moses, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel: ‘The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you. This is My name forever, and this is My memorial to all generations.’

So we are told our Heavenly Fathers name is I AM. Good to know right for if someone were to ask you you can say my Heavenly Father is IAM. Now.... you tell me..... What is the name of the Holy Spirit? What???????????/ You do not know....?????????????

Here is another case where we have many multiple verses in the bible that simply call the Holy Spirit, Holy Spirit... and once in a while the writers of the bible may have gotten tired and only wrote "Spirit".

So we have I AM... from before time. We have the Holy Spirit before time. And we have The Word before time and how do I know this????? Because the Word spoke everything into existence.... He seemingly was I AMs mouth.

God's name 'I am who I am'. Some translations have - 'I will be what I will be'. God will be what he needs to be at any given time.
. . . And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters, i.e. THE Holy Spirit, the Spirit of God, God's Spirit hovered over the face of the waters. God spoke, 'And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light.' . . . And God said, “Let there be an expanse in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters.” . . . And it was so. . . . And God said, “Let the waters under the heavens be gathered together into one place, and let the dry land appear.” And it was so. etc. God SPOKE creation into being with HIS SPEECH that came from HIS VOICE out of HIS MOUTH. A separate being named 'word' did not come and create! God created alone by himself.

And it is most likely that the Word was with Mose on the Mount. Have you not heard that God has no body parts??????????? I have. But the one on the mountain with Moses had
a hand to cover Moses eyes and a back that Moses could see when He passed.

And numerous other times.... the Word was around.

What is the meaning of Exodus 33:23? Then I will take My hand away
In the immediate context, God has just placed Moses in 'a cleft of the rock' and covered him with his hand (Exodus 33:22)
The hand signifies God's personal, literal protection; He alone decides when and how His glory is disclosed. (Psalm 91:1; John 17:24)
'Covering Moses with MY hand' underscores God's protective care. By employing relational imagery, the text underscores God's intentional shielding and benevolence. Bible Hub

AI Overview: In Exodus 33:22, the 'hand' is a figurative, anthropomorphic, representation of God's literal, protective presence and power. While God is not a physical being with a literal hand, the imagery of His hand covering Moses signifies a personal, tangible act of protection that shelters Moses from God's overwhelming glory, ensuring his survival while allowing him to experience a partial revelation.

Fast forward to a baby was going to be conceived.

And an angel told Mary, and Joseph separately They had to name the baby Jesus because "Jesus" because he will save his people from their sins (Matthew 1:21). The name Jesus means "God saves."

We have 3 available to come to earth to become flesh and blood. I AM, The Holy Spirit, and The Word.

Of the three... which one would you think would be chosen or volunteer? Stop and think....

It was the Word... correct. And he was born and named Jesus because I am said to.

This is so easy to understand but when the rest of your sentence says "nor do I believe that any of those verses say that Jesus preexisted his birth." you could not be more wrong.

We have 3 available to come to earth to become flesh and blood. I AM, The Holy Spirit, and The Word. OMGOSH!!!
Totally remarkable!

I don't think the LORD Yahweh inserted himself into the womb of Mary nor being that the Holy Spirit is God's Spirit which was the POWER of the MOST HIGH (Yahweh) that caused Mary to conceive - so nope . . . that leaves an inanimate object - the 'word' - nope not that either. I think I will stick with the record in Luke: And the angel answered her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy—the Son of God.
And the record in Matthew: But as he considered these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not fear to take Mary as your wife, for that which is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. She will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins.”
NO ONE HAS EVER PREEXISTED THEIR BIRTH.

First Why would you not want to believe The Word became Jesus? Have you never changed your user name in any forum you have been on? He had to blend in. He had to appear as normal as all others which is a topic for another thread....

So I AM and the Holy Spirit and Jesus were responsible for getting us ushered to where we want out eternities to be.

Jesus was before birth... just with a different name....

Get over it

 

[amazing grace]

and in pre-existence God became flesh. Quite obvious. The difficulty is understanding how God does this. I guess this is why unitarians stumble over the stumbling stone

Oh, the difficulty is not in understanding HOW --- more like WHY?

Humanity owed God a debt for the penalty of sin against Him. Humanity should pay for that debt NOT GOD which is why God gave his only begotten Son to reconcile, to redeem, to be the propitiation of humanity's sin through his shed blood.
A perfect sinless human being was to be our Passover Lamb - Jesus Christ accomplished that for us.

If Jesus is God, then God had no Son.

 

[mikesw]

Oh, the difficulty is not in understanding HOW --- more like WHY?

Humanity owed God a debt for the penalty of sin against Him. Humanity should pay for that debt NOT GOD which is why God gave his only begotten Son to reconcile, to redeem, to be the propitiation of humanity's sin through his shed blood.
A perfect sinless human being was to be our Passover Lamb - Jesus Christ accomplished that for us.

If Jesus is God, then God had no Son.

The amazing thing is that both humanity and divinity were in that sacrifice experience. You now are denying that God has a Son who is divine. You just erased history.

 

[FreeInChrist]

Yes, I believe the word existed before Jesus - God created with his word in the beginning - in all the places in Genesis where 'And God said' - God created with his spoken word. Correct the 'word' is not a name.
I don't see what my age has to do with anything but I am 73 years young.
If you told me you got an autograph from the boss - I wouldn't know exactly who you were referring to .... it would depend - your 'boss' as in your work place or 'boss' as in Bruce Springsteen?

God's name 'I am who I am'. Some translations have - 'I will be what I will be'. God will be what he needs to be at any given time.
. . . And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters, i.e. THE Holy Spirit, the Spirit of God, God's Spirit hovered over the face of the waters. God spoke, 'And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light.' . . . And God said, “Let there be an expanse in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters.” . . . And it was so. . . . And God said, “Let the waters under the heavens be gathered together into one place, and let the dry land appear.” And it was so. etc. God SPOKE creation into being with HIS SPEECH that came from HIS VOICE out of HIS MOUTH. A separate being named 'word' did not come and create! God created alone by himself.

What is the meaning of Exodus 33:23? Then I will take My hand away
In the immediate context, God has just placed Moses in 'a cleft of the rock' and covered him with his hand (Exodus 33:22)
The hand signifies God's personal, literal protection; He alone decides when and how His glory is disclosed. (Psalm 91:1; John 17:24)
'Covering Moses with MY hand' underscores God's protective care. By employing relational imagery, the text underscores God's intentional shielding and benevolence. Bible Hub

AI Overview: In Exodus 33:22, the 'hand' is a figurative, anthropomorphic, representation of God's literal, protective presence and power. While God is not a physical being with a literal hand, the imagery of His hand covering Moses signifies a personal, tangible act of protection that shelters Moses from God's overwhelming glory, ensuring his survival while allowing him to experience a partial revelation.

We have 3 available to come to earth to become flesh and blood. I AM, The Holy Spirit, and The Word. OMGOSH!!!
Totally remarkable!

I don't think the LORD Yahweh inserted himself into the womb of Mary nor being that the Holy Spirit is God's Spirit which was the POWER of the MOST HIGH (Yahweh) that caused Mary to conceive - so nope . . . that leaves an inanimate object - the 'word' - nope not that either. I think I will stick with the record in Luke: And the angel answered her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy—the Son of God.
And the record in Matthew: But as he considered these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not fear to take Mary as your wife, for that which is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. She will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins.”
NO ONE HAS EVER PREEXISTED THEIR BIRTH.

You are saying God could not. SMH

 

[civic]

The amazing thing is that both humanity and divinity were in that sacrifice experience. You now are denying that God has a Son who is divine. You just erased history.

And erased the only Savior/ Redeemer for mankind since God alone declared He alone is the Redeemer/ Savior/ Lord.

We know scripture says in Psalm 49:7-
No one can redeem the life of another or give to God a ransom for them

Since they claim Jesus is only a man then He cannot Redeem them from their sins.

 

[FreeInChrist]

The amazing thing is that both humanity and divinity were in that sacrifice experience. You now are denying that God has a Son who is divine. You just erased history.

Scary isn't it.

 

[amazing grace]

The amazing thing is that both humanity and divinity were in that sacrifice experience. You now are denying that God has a Son who is divine. You just erased history.

You deny the Son by replacing him with God 'in the flesh'.
Deity cannot die and therefore there is no sacrifice of 'divinity'.
And I hope for your sake as well as mine that it wasn't just a non-personal empty shell of flesh, an empty body that died because that is scary!
I am denying that God came 'in the flesh' as his own Son. I believe that God had a Son, a truly human Son.

 

[amazing grace]

And erased the only Savior/ Redeemer for mankind since God alone declared He alone is the Redeemer/ Savior/ Lord.

We know scripture says in Psalm 49:7-
No one can redeem the life of another or give to God a ransom for them

Since they claim Jesus is only a man then He cannot Redeem them from their sins.

Again taking scripture out of context: those who trust in their wealth and boast of the abundance of their riches? Truly no man can ransom another, or give to God the price of his life, for the ransom of their life is costly and can never suffice, that he should live on forever and never see the pit.

No amount of a man's wealth or riches can give to God the price of his life because to ransom a life is costly and money will never suffice ---- We are not talking about money as redemption but a Jesus' life sacrificed on behalf of others . . . . The Passover foreshadowed Jesus as the Lamb of God . . . if you remember correctly they had to take the blood of the Passover Lamb and sprinkle it over the doorpost to protect them from the angel of death. Jesus, our Passover Lamb, without spot or blemish redeemed us from the penalty of death through forgiveness of our sins, i.e. his shed blood. Jesus' shed blood atoned for our sins and thus removed the penalty of death to those who believe ----- his resurrection gives us the assurance of eternal life.

 

[amazing grace]

You are saying God could not. SMH

I am saying God could not WHAT? Preexist his birth? SMH ---- Why would God want to be born? He has always existed - he abides in heaven - why would he want to come into a fallen world?

 

[FreeInChrist]

You deny the Son by replacing him with God 'in the flesh'.
Deity cannot die and therefore there is no sacrifice of 'divinity'.
And I hope for your sake as well as mine that it wasn't just a non-personal empty shell of flesh, an empty body that died because that is scary!
I am denying that God came 'in the flesh' as his own Son. I believe that God had a Son, a truly human Son.

"I am denying that God came 'in the flesh' as his own Son" You are correct.... they are 2 separates. God the Father, God the Son.

 

[FreeInChrist]

I am saying God could not WHAT? Preexist his birth? SMH ---- Why would God want to be born? He has always existed - he abides in heaven - why would he want to come into a fallen world?

With out his shed blood you would have no hope but then that is another leg of this twisted spider that y9ou really should study up on. Or do you want Him up in heaven sprinkling it down over the earth? You wanna sell the umbrellas so the undeserving do not get wet?

Don't worry about it.

You cannot understand and my fingers are tired trying to explain.

 

[amazing grace]

"I am denying that God came 'in the flesh' as his own Son" You are correct.... they are 2 separates. God the Father, God the Son.

You are correct - If as you say = Jesus is God, and the Father is God, and Jesus is NOT the Father . . . you have two gods, i.e.
two separates.

 

[mikesw]

You deny the Son by replacing him with God 'in the flesh'.
Deity cannot die and therefore there is no sacrifice of 'divinity'.
And I hope for your sake as well as mine that it wasn't just a non-personal empty shell of flesh, an empty body that died because that is scary!
I am denying that God came 'in the flesh' as his own Son. I believe that God had a Son, a truly human Son.

I would not hold to a doctrine of God coming in the flesh as his own Son. That is neglecting the multiple persons of God and the actual flesh born son. You are countering a doctrine that has no relationship to Trinitarianism.

I can see now that your rejection is not based on the Triune God but of some alternative heresies

 

[mikesw]

I am saying God could not WHAT? Preexist his birth? SMH ---- Why would God want to be born? He has always existed - he abides in heaven - why would he want to come into a fallen world?

He sends the one that John first designates as the Word and becomes flesh as Jesus. He does this to save the world. (John 3:16-17). This is because of his love. That is an act to be appreciated.

 

[amazing grace]

With out his shed blood you would have no hope but then that is another leg of this twisted spider that y9ou really should study up on. Or do you want Him up in heaven sprinkling it down over the earth? You wanna sell the umbrellas so the undeserving do not get wet?

Don't worry about it.

You cannot understand and my fingers are tired trying to explain.

Correct, Jesus being a human, a mortal, he was able to shed his blood for the remission of our sins.

God did not shed blood - a Spirit does not have bodily fluids.

 

[civic]

He sends the one that John first designates as the Word and becomes flesh as Jesus. He does this to save the world. (John 3:16-17). This is because of his love. That is an act to be appreciated.

And the One John the Baptist who was born 6 months before him declared twice in John 1 existed before him.

Another uni failure that exposes their heretical beliefs about Jesus pre existing before becoming man.

 

[mikesw]

And the One John the Baptist who was born 6 months before him declared twice in John 1 existed before him.

Another uni failure that exposes their heretical beliefs about Jesus pre existing before becoming man.

Yep. definitely more passages than I have kept in the forefront of my memory. I always realize the depth of passages is utterly amazing.