Trinitarian Training

[FreeInChrist]

The Word was…past tense, third person singular, indicative, imperfect, active intransitive/state of being verb.

Word is a noun, which will always be a person, place or thing. It is applied to a person. Things, cannot be God, but the Word was God in the beginning. Word is a metaphorical representation of a personal being who “was God”!

Doug

Good morning @Tibias Dad,

It has occurred to me that while there are those who fight tooth and nail against the idea of the Word being amything but an object an object
and certainly not a name , or person of importance... and therefor cannot be Jesus or part of the Trinity....

from the beginning as far back as I know, in Genesis.... OUR Heavenly Father was not really into names for those in the Godhead.

In Genesis we know of the Spirit of God hovering over the waters. And throughout creation we had God. Even when the OT times had given God a name it was said to be unpronounceable YHWH...

Even so... in Exodus 3:13-15 when Moses wanted God's name....

13Then Moses said to God, “Behold, I am going to the sons of Israel, and I will say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you.’ Now they may say to me, ‘What is His name?’ What shall I say to them?”

14 God said to Moses, I AM WHO I AM”; and He said, “Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, I AM has sent me to you.’”

15 God, furthermore, said to Moses, “Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, ‘The Lord, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.’ This is My name forever, and this is My memorial-name to all generations.

Now enter the Holy Spirit.... I never ever heard anyone ask what his name was. Perhaps they did in a translation I have not read?

Now we have three that work together. (I am not being irreverant, I am being simplistic for clarity)

And many of us call the three the Holy Trinity... while other are fairly fainting at the very idea.

WELL YOU OTHERS.... NO matter if you do or do not believe in the Trinity.... THERE are three that we know of as the Father ,Son and Holy Spirit and the three have taken good care of us since the Spirit was hovering over those waters.

Trinity or three Amigos.... You just cannot get away from 3 .... period.

So not one of these three had a real name like John , Dick or Saul. Does that mean they were not who or what the NT has talked about?

The only real name in the New Testament was that of Jesus which was specified by the Angel

Matt 1: 20-21
20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

21And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Luke 1:
30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.

31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name Jesus.
Well... anyway... we have the three that cannot be denied and they shall remain fairly nameless because even Jesus
told them to go baptize in the name of the Father, and Son and Holy Spirit.... Baptism is to be done in no name.

Not I am, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit..... Just a simple no name needed situation.

OK... I will go but I do wish people would think before they venture forward.

 

[civic]

The Word was…past tense, third person singular, indicative, imperfect, active intransitive/state of being verb.

Word is a noun, which will always be a person, place or thing. It is applied to a person. Things, cannot be God, but the Word was God in the beginning. Word is a metaphorical representation of a personal being who “was God”!

Doug

Amen ! So much for unitarianism.

 

[Lions Mane]

Training class in session. First lesson is short but profound.

Words are important. They represent substance. They come forward from thought. What you choose to say is a reflection of who you are. First English word to understand.

Intrinsic. This word has its origins in English from French. Intrinsic

"Inward", or "inner".

In Greek it is εσωτερικός
It is found throughout ancient Greek and is referenced in Jeremiah 17:10
Jer 17:10 I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.
Speech comes from the heart. It represents what you are. It is the heart that begins the process of speech.
Jesus, as the Judge of all things, spoke of how He will judge humanity.
Mat 12:35 The good person brings good things out of his good treasury, and the evil person brings evil things out of his evil treasury.
Mat 12:36 I tell you that on the day of judgment, people will give an account for every worthless word they speak.
Mat 12:37 For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.” .... (NET)

What you say is an Intrinsic quality of what you. This belief is a central principle of Trinitarianism.

Nice Thread. There is a lot we could all learn about the Trinity. You know that sometimes, as we get new information, things that once seemed mysterious to us are unraveled. We have seen real progress in knowledge in the history of science, medicine and other disciplines. But even if we increase our knowledge to the maximum point in human experience, we will always remain finite creatures who will not have the ability to comprehend all reality.

There are many truths that God reveals to us about Himself that are beyond our capacity to understand. Given the difference between the exalted character of God and our status as created beings, this difficulty should not surprise us. We may come to greater understanding of many of these mysterious truths at some future point in redemptive history. However, even then we may never fully understand some truths.

So, something is a mystery to us if we lack understanding of it; this is quite different from a contradiction. Yet, no one understands a contradiction either. It is this similarity that leads to the idea that the Trinity is a contradiction. We can rush to judgment and say, “If we don’t understand something, it must be irrational, it must be a contradiction.”

But that’s not necessarily the case. It is true that contradictions cannot be understood because they are inherently unintelligible, but not everything that seems to be a contradiction is a contradiction. Some apparent contradictions are mysteries.

Lets clear up some mysteries about the Trinity here and now.

 

[Runningman]

Nice Thread. There is a lot we could all learn about the Trinity. You know that sometimes, as we get new information, things that once seemed mysterious to us are unraveled. We have seen real progress in knowledge in the history of science, medicine and other disciplines. But even if we increase our knowledge to the maximum point in human experience, we will always remain finite creatures who will not have the ability to comprehend all reality.

There are many truths that God reveals to us about Himself that are beyond our capacity to understand. Given the difference between the exalted character of God and our status as created beings, this difficulty should not surprise us. We may come to greater understanding of many of these mysterious truths at some future point in redemptive history. However, even then we may never fully understand some truths.

So, something is a mystery to us if we lack understanding of it; this is quite different from a contradiction. Yet, no one understands a contradiction either. It is this similarity that leads to the idea that the Trinity is a contradiction. We can rush to judgment and say, “If we don’t understand something, it must be irrational, it must be a contradiction.”

But that’s not necessarily the case. It is true that contradictions cannot be understood because they are inherently unintelligible, but not everything that seems to be a contradiction is a contradiction. Some apparent contradictions are mysteries.

Lets clear up some mysteries about the Trinity here and now.

Do you think the Bible contains what God wanted us to know about Himself? God, in His infinite wisdom, foresight, and knowledge knows that we ourselves have seemingly unlimited capacity to dream up theories, philosophy, and reasons about the things we want to believe. So wouldn't an all-knowing God provide us exactly what we need to know, remove all of the guess work, and just ask us to have child-like trust and belief?

We shouldn't use the murky waters of claiming the Bible is a mystery in order to feign ignorance about what it plainly says so we can justify the possibility that a trinity exists. We should not attempt to understand the Bible using mystery and secret knowledge and then stand as gatekeepers attempting to shut out those who who don't agree with a trinity that is not stated in the Bible in the first place.

Instead of trying to shoehorn a trinity into the Bible, let's just say what the Bible says about God, using their language, expressions, and terms. They described the Father as the only true God in John 17:3, 1 Corinthians 8:6, and Ephesians 4:6. There is nothing mysterious about that nor should we try to confuse people into thinking there is.

 

[Salty]

Know this:

“God is absolutely immutable in His essence and absolutely mutable in His essence.”

Some say that the difference between God and man is that whereas our minds are limited by the laws of logic, God’s mind transcends the laws of logic, so He can understand something as A and non-A at the same time and in the same relationship.

 

[Runningman]

The Word was…past tense, third person singular, indicative, imperfect, active intransitive/state of being verb.

Word is a noun, which will always be a person, place or thing. It is applied to a person. Things, cannot be God, but the Word was God in the beginning. Word is a metaphorical representation of a personal being who “was God”!

Doug

You forget that there are things call personification in literature. 1John 1:1-3 explicitly calls the Word a thing, not a he, not a person, not God. Words aren't a person are they? You're supposed to intuitively know that when you speak your words aren't a person. John was only being poetic hence the Word is not The God. Isn't God always The God? The Word is not The God, therefore the Word is not literally God.

 

[civic]

You forget that there are things call personification in literature. 1John 1:1-3 explicitly calls the Word a thing, not a he, not a person, not God. Words aren't a person are they? You're supposed to intuitively know that when you speak your words aren't a person. John was only being poetic hence the Word is not The God. Isn't God always The God? The Word is not The God, therefore the Word is not literally God.

nope He ( the WORD ) created all things keep reading.

 

[Runningman]

nope He ( the WORD ) created all things keep reading.

You've stopped saying the Word incarnated so you're getting closer. John 1 is in line with Jesus being created. Keep reading. Following normal pronoun-antecedent agreement, the God the Word was with is the Creator since the last mentioned God isn't the Word. Therefore, the God the Word was with is the Creator and Jesus was created.

John 1
2He was with God in the beginning. 3Through Him all things were made, and without Him nothing was made that has been made.
14The Word became flesh and made His dwelling among us. We have seen His glory, the glory of the one and only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.

I also might add, the context of John 1 shows that Jesus is not the true Light since the true Light was coming into the world after Jesus was already 30 years old.

John 1
9The true Light, who gives light to everyone, was coming into the world.

 

[Lions Mane]

Do you think the Bible contains what God wanted us to know about Himself? God, in His infinite wisdom, foresight, and knowledge knows that we ourselves have seemingly unlimited capacity to dream up theories, philosophy, and reasons about the things we want to believe. So wouldn't an all-knowing God provide us exactly what we need to know, remove all of the guess work, and just ask us to have child-like trust and belief?

We shouldn't use the murky waters of claiming the Bible is a mystery in order to feign ignorance about what it plainly says so we can justify the possibility that a trinity exists. We should not attempt to understand the Bible using mystery and secret knowledge and then stand as gatekeepers attempting to shut out those who who don't agree with a trinity that is not stated in the Bible in the first place.

Instead of trying to shoehorn a trinity into the Bible, let's just say what the Bible says about God, using their language, expressions, and terms. They described the Father as the only true God in John 17:3, 1 Corinthians 8:6, and Ephesians 4:6. There is nothing mysterious about that nor should we try to confuse people into thinking there is.

Instead of "shoehorn" lets try spoon feeding. Open wide... God is a trinity.

Theological terms such as Trinity have arisen in church history principally because of the church’s commitment to theological precision. The favorite trick of the unitarian is what we call studied ambiguity—that means of communication whereby concepts are intentionally left ambiguous. Theological precision is necessary to combat this tactic.

 

[Runningman]

Instead of "shoehorn" lets try spoon feeding. Open wide... God is a trinity.

Theological terms such as Trinity have arisen in church history principally because of the church’s commitment to theological precision. The favorite trick of the unitarian is what we call studied ambiguity—that means of communication whereby concepts are intentionally left ambiguous. Theological precision is necessary to combat this tactic.

The exact word "trinity" doesn't need to exist in the language if it was described instead. There isn't even a description of God being three, or three persons in one God, etc. So the terms you use are foreign to the Biblical context. God is Unitarian. One God, the Father, He is the only true God.

Would you dare call the Father the only true God? I'm wondering if any of you have the courage to agree with God, Jesus, the prophets, and the apostles.

 

[Lions Mane]

The church has used the term Trinity to stop the mouths of the heretics, those who teach tritheism, the idea that there are three Gods and those who deny the tri-personality of God by insisting on some view of unitarianism. We might say that the word Trinity is a “shibboleth.”

 

[civic]

You've stopped saying the Word incarnated so you're getting closer. John 1 is in line with Jesus being created. Keep reading. Following normal pronoun-antecedent agreement, the God the Word was with is the Creator since the last mentioned God isn't the Word. Therefore, the God the Word was with is the Creator and Jesus was created.

John 1
2He was with God in the beginning. 3Through Him all things were made, and without Him nothing was made that has been made.
14The Word became flesh and made His dwelling among us. We have seen His glory, the glory of the one and only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.

I also might add, the context of John 1 shows that Jesus is not the true Light since the true Light was coming into the world after Jesus was already 30 years old.

John 1
9The true Light, who gives light to everyone, was coming into the world.

Nope He was not created , He created. John 1:1-3. He was before all created things and in Him all things exist.

Next fallacy

 

[Runningman]

Nope He was not created , He created. John 1:1-3. He was before all created things and in Him all things exist.

Next fallacy

"Through Him all things were made"
"The Word became flesh"

So your interpretation is that the Word is flesh but not created. You have a contradiction in your theology. According to the Bible, flesh is a creation.

 

[civic]

"Through Him all things were made"
"The Word became flesh"

So your interpretation is that the Word is flesh but not created. You have a contradiction in your theology. According to the Bible, flesh is a creation.

Through Him ( the Word who was God )

The Word ( who was God )became flesh- a man. The Incarnation in John 1:14- God became man,

next fallacy

 

[Runningman]

Through Him ( the Word who was God )

The Word ( who was God )became flesh- a man. The Incarnation in John 1:14- God became man,

next fallacy

Except there is no mention of an incarnation nor did anyone even come close to repeating what John said in John 1 in all of Scripture. The minority verses don't inform the majority of verses about Jesus being a creation. (Colossians 1:15, Revelation 3:14)

There is no mention of a pre-existent "Word who was God" in the OT. I don't agree with your interpretation.

 

[Runningman]

The church has used the term Trinity to stop the mouths of the heretics, those who teach tritheism, the idea that there are three Gods and those who deny the tri-personality of God by insisting on some view of unitarianism. We might say that the word Trinity is a “shibboleth.”

Trinitarianism was not formalized until the 4th century and they did so in councils and creeds, not in Scripture. A rejection of the trinity is a rejection of your organization's beliefs, not a rejection of Jesus' teachings. Trinitarians all too often make the mistake of conflating their religion with Christianity because their teachings do not match what Jesus taught.

 

[Lions Mane]

Trinitarianism was not formalized until the 4th century and they did so in councils and creeds, not in Scripture. A rejection of the trinity is a rejection of your organization's beliefs, not a rejection of Jesus' teachings. Trinitarians all too often make the mistake of conflating their religion with Christianity because their teachings do not match what Jesus taught.

Sorry, I don't have a organization.

Unitarians all too often make the mistake of conflating their religion with Christianity because their teachings do not match what Jesus taught.

 

[civic]

Except there is no mention of an incarnation nor did anyone even come close to repeating what John said in John 1 in all of Scripture. The minority verses don't inform the majority of verses about Jesus being a creation. (Colossians 1:15, Revelation 3:14)

There is no mention of a pre-existent "Word who was God" in the OT. I don't agree with your interpretation.

Incarnation means God becomes flesh.

by your reasoning since unitarian is not mentioned in the bible its not true and is a false teaching, false doctrine made up by man.

next fallacy

 

[Affinity]

Trinitarianism was not formalized until the 4th century and they did so in councils and creeds, not in Scripture. A rejection of the trinity is a rejection of your organization's beliefs, not a rejection of Jesus' teachings. Trinitarians all too often make the mistake of conflating their religion with Christianity because their teachings do not match what Jesus taught.

God has always been a trinity.

“Let us make human beings in our image, to be like us,” says Genesis 1:26

With the Interpretation of the plural "us" as a reference to the Trinity... Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

“The Son radiates God’s own glory and expresses the very character of God” (Hebrews 1:3, NLT; see also 2 Corinthians 4:4; Colossians 1:15). To see Jesus is to see the Father (John 14:9). To know Christ is to know God. Jesus Christ shows us what God meant when He said, “Let Us make man in Our image.” GOT?

 

[civic]

God has always been a trinity.

“Let us make human beings in our image, to be like us,” says Genesis 1:26

With the Interpretation of the plural "us" as a reference to the Trinity... Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Ditto