praise_yeshua
Well-known member
2Co 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.
Total Depravity
- Thread starter The Rogue Tomato
- Start date
Jeff
New member
Romans 5:15-17 describes how Adam's one transgression brought sin and death into the world, and how Jesus' sacrifice brought life and justification to many. Adam's one sin condemned the whole of the human race to death, and we are all imputed with sin because of it. The passage also describes the free gift of righteousness that is bestowed on us through Christ when we believe in him, which is free and without merit on our part.
Adam's action brought death to many people. Jesus' action brought the grace of God to many people. This free gift of God's grace brings the opportunity for life, for salvation, to everyone. All who trust in Christ will receive this gift, rather than facing death because of Adam's introduction of sin into the world.
brightfame52
Well-known member
Jesus taught the principle that men are depraved and that they are Spiritually dead when He declared to Nicodemus in John 3:3-7
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see[understand] the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
Man is so dead to God Spiritually one of these alternatives is imperative:
a new birth, resurrection, regeneration, or new creation is needed
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see[understand] the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
Man is so dead to God Spiritually one of these alternatives is imperative:
a new birth, resurrection, regeneration, or new creation is needed
brightfame52
Well-known member
Correct, Jesus must make us alive[first] from the dead, that's a New Spiritual life given. Then one can understand Spiritual things and believe and bring forth fruit.
I agree. In fact, I have known some men, who call Jesus Lord, Lord, who imply in their teaching to others that God's Love towards Abraham's Children in Egypt, when HE gave them His "instruction in righteousness", was placing on their necks a Yoke of Bondage impossible to obey, and yet God lied to them and told they could obey and killed them by the thousands when they didn't.
Truly some men attribute evil to His Name.
civic
Well-known member
YepAnd you think that Paul is informing believers about an elect caste system as if they're Hindus?!?!
civic
Well-known member
Amen
brightfame52
Well-known member
Problem is, one cannot spiritually hear and understand the Gospel when they are born again first. Jesus points that out with Spiritually dead jews Jn 8:43,47
43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
See they lack the ability to hear Spiritually the word of God,
Here is what it takes Vs 47
47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.
Again Jesus is restating in different terminology Jn 3:3
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Rockson
Well-known member
That pretty much sums up about what Calvinists claim God has done. There's no real message of mercy that's being relayed not really. There's no real hope that one can cry out have mercy to me a sinner and expect God to be moved in the slightest! His answer to them would be, "Tough luck! I won't even consider mercy to you it was decided before you were born!?And you think that Paul is informing believers about an elect caste system as if they're Hindus?!?!
Doesn't matter if life has so beaten one up spiritually, psychological, or mentally like the victim in the Good Samaritan story! No mercy for you with God walking right by them without having a concern! And yet the same God telling his followers to help all others but having him not willing to do the same. How anyone can think this is the God of the Bible is staggering.
Segmentation of society into groups whose membership was determined by birth.
brightfame52
Well-known member
One of the truths of total depravity is that by nature man is totally captive by the devil, according to his [devil]will 2 Tim 2:25-26
25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.
Eph 2:1--3
And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
Jesus must liberate us, He does that by giving repentance by the New Birth which is a benefit of His redeeming death.
25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.
Eph 2:1--3
And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
Jesus must liberate us, He does that by giving repentance by the New Birth which is a benefit of His redeeming death.
Jeff
New member
What John 8:43 according to, Jesus is teaching is that those who cannot understand the will of God or the message of God are those who do not want to understand. The problem is not their intellect or their learning, but that they are committed to rejecting what they do not want to hear explains that the word translated "unable" in verse 43 means unwilling, and the word translated "hear" means not only to hear but also to heed. They simply lacked the will, the desire, to hear with their hearts and to be transformed from children of darkness to children of Light.
These were Pharisees they were trying to kill Jesus. The Pharisees rejected Jesus Christ because they saw Him as a threat to their authority and religious traditions. They were upset about Jesus' association with publicans and sinners, and inflamed by Christ's ignoring their petty rules about the Sabbath. They also accused Jesus and His disciples of doing things that were unlawful on the Sabbath.
Other people did believe his message and followed him during his 3 years ministry. The people that hear the gospel message today can and do believe in who Jesus is and what he came to do.
brightfame52
Well-known member
See you rejecting what Christ said about hearing the word of God.
brightfame52
Well-known member
@Jeff
The poster rejected what Christ said, He said cannot hear. The word cannot here is the greek word dynamai:
But Jesus used the particle ou:
no, not;
So Hes they have no ability, no resource
So yes the unwillngness comes from inability.
The poster rejected what Christ said, He said cannot hear. The word cannot here is the greek word dynamai:
- to be able, have power whether by virtue of one's own ability and resources, or of a state of mind, or through favourable circumstances, or by permission of law or custom
- to be able to do something
- to be capable, strong and powerful
But Jesus used the particle ou:
no, not;
So Hes they have no ability, no resource
So yes the unwillngness comes from inability.
Jeff
New member
What I'm rejecting is your misinterpretation of the scripture.
Jesus was talking to the Pharisees and their rejection of him. He is the Word, And they didn't want to hear it. Jesus was not talking about all mankind.
What's funny is when all means all to a calvinist
You're not reading the scriptures for what they tell us. You're reading the scriptures to try to back up Calvinism. That's never going to work.
@brightfame52
Jesus was talking to the Pharisees and their rejection of him. He is the Word, And they didn't want to hear it. Jesus was not talking about all mankind.
What's funny is when all means all to a calvinist
You're not reading the scriptures for what they tell us. You're reading the scriptures to try to back up Calvinism. That's never going to work.
@brightfame52
civic
Well-known member
Yes it’s called projectingWhat I'm rejecting is your misinterpretation of the scripture.
Jesus was talking to the Pharisees and their rejection of him. He is the Word, And they didn't want to hear it. Jesus was not talking about all mankind.
What's funny is when all means all to a calvinist
You're not reading the scriptures for what they tell us. You're reading the scriptures to try to back up Calvinism. That's never going to work.
@brightfame52
Adherent
Member
Ecclesiastes 3:11
"He has made everything beautiful in its time. He has also set eternity in the human heart; yet no one can fathom what God has done from beginning to end."
The eternity that God has set in our hearts is awakened when we hear the gospel preach. The scripture says in the human heart, not the elect.
Rockson
Well-known member
No it most certainly is not. You're refusing to deal with a credible question. You believe I'm sure there's been people that have served God and gave all the appearance they loved God through service for years.....and then they turn away. Well these people DID NOT consider the gospel foolishness all the years they were serving God and understood it perfectly. So now explain that IF Calvinism were true.
civic
Well-known member
It’s only Babel to those who have been filled with confusion like at the Tower.
I'm not sure this is what the Scripture means. Man has a desire to live, the instinct for self-preservation, the desire to live forever. Truly God placed this instinct to survive in the heart/mind of all humans whether they know about or hear the Gospel of God or not.
Some Translations, like the KJV, read "11 He hath made every thing beautiful in his time: also he hath set the world in their heart, so that no man can find out the work that God maketh from the beginning to the end.
I agree that God placed this desire in all humans, not just the Elect.
