Total Depravity

brightfame52 said:
The good soil is the regenerated heart that's the only one that can believe the gospel and understand it spiritually
Click to expand...
Nope the parable never says they are regenerated before hearing and believing the gospel. That’s your eisegesis at work to twist Gods word into a pretzel

Matthew 13- The Parable of the Sower


1The same day went Jesus out of the house, and sat by the sea side.
2 And great multitudes were gathered together unto him, so that he went into a ship, and sat; and the whole multitude stood on the shore.
3 And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow;
4 And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up:
5 Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth:
6 And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.
7 And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them:
8 But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.
9 Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.


10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.
17 For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.


18 Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.


19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.

22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.

23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

T- man can choose to hear, see and receive the gospel
U- all can choose to believe and receive as demonstrated in the parable of the 4 soils
L- all soils received the seed without exception
I- 3 soils resisted all but 1 soil remained faithful and did not resist
P- 3/4 soils ( minds/hearts )did not preserver in the faith

1- Only something alive can be choked. You cannot choke the dead. And as we can see they all had life to begin with in each soil.
2- Only something alive can be scorched by the Sun and withered.
3- Only someone alive can receive the word in the heart and have it snatched away
4- Only someone alive can receive the word with Joy and endure for a while

Some O.T. light shed upon the N.T. :)

Jeremiah 4:3, and Hosea 10:12 say the following,

For thus saith the LORD to the men of Judah and Jerusalem, Break up your fallow ground, and sow not among thorns.
Jeremiah 4:3

Sow to yourselves in righteousness, reap in mercy; break up your fallow ground: for it is time to seek the LORD, till he come and rain righteousness upon you. Hosea 10:12

Both of these verses say that WE are to prepare the soil of our hearts! It is WE who do the plowing.


hope this helps !!!
 
Luke 14:23 And the master said to the servant, ‘Go out to the highways and hedges and compel (αναγκασον) people to come in, that my house may be filled. 24 For I tell you, none of those men who were invited shall taste my banquet.’” @synergy. Remember this from the old forum :) The Greek word αναγκασον is to urge or compel, not irresistibly draw.

There are 4 major Calvinist pillars that fall with the Parable of the Wedding Feast which is connected to the Parable of the Sower above.
  1. Monergism (Total Depravity),
  2. Preservation of Saints (many called by God but few chosen by God),
  3. Irresistible Grace (many called by God but few chosen by God),
  4. and even Limited Atonement because as many as could possibly be found were invited
hope this helps !!!
 
civic said:
Jeremiah 4:3, and Hosea 10:12 say the following,

For thus saith the LORD to the men of Judah and Jerusalem, Break up your fallow ground, and sow not among thorns.
Jeremiah 4:3

Sow to yourselves in righteousness, reap in mercy; break up your fallow ground: for it is time to seek the LORD, till he come and rain righteousness upon you. Hosea 10:12

Both of these verses say that WE are to prepare the soil of our hearts! It is WE who do the plowing.


hope this helps !!!
Click to expand...

1 Cor. 9: 9 For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen?

10 Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, "this is written": that he that ploweth "should plow in hope"; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope.

Rom. 2: 11 For there is no respect of persons "with God".

The Modern religious philosophy of TULIP notwithstanding.

Nice catch Civic.
 
 
brightfame52 said:
Sorry before regeneration a person is dead to God.
Click to expand...
Not so. How would you fit John 3:16 into that equation?

For God so greatly loved and dearly prized the world that He [even] gave up His only begotten (unique) Son, so that whoever believes in (trusts in, clings to, relies on) Him shall not perish (come to destruction, be lost) but have eternal (everlasting) life.
 
brightfame52 said:
Yes he understands it to be foolishness so he's not converted to Christ but remains in unbelief.
Click to expand...
So tell me do you believe people can have the appearance of serving God and then go against the appearance of what they showed later? In prior times they DID NOT have any inclination it was foolishness at all.
 
Jeff said:
Not so. How would you fit John 3:16 into that equation?

For God so greatly loved and dearly prized the world that He [even] gave up His only begotten (unique) Son, so that whoever believes in (trusts in, clings to, relies on) Him shall not perish (come to destruction, be lost) but have eternal (everlasting) life.
Click to expand...
He doesn’t believe that passage . Don’t you know God meant to say “ for God so hated the world”
 
civic said:
He doesn’t believe that passage . Don’t you know God meant to say “ for God so hated the world”
Click to expand...
That would be the god of this world satan. Satan, is described as one who seeks to cause downfall and prevent Christian growth. If you believe in Calvinism you have no need for christian growth. So Satan has got the victory of the calvinist unless they come to the knowledge of the truth and leave that false man-made theology in the dust. Shake it off of you feet.
 
Aeliana said:
That would be the god of this world satan. Satan, is described as one who seeks to cause downfall and prevent Christian growth. If you believe in Calvinism you have no need for christian growth. So Satan has got the victory of the calvinist unless they come to the knowledge of the truth and leave that false man-made theology in the dust. Shake it off of you feet.
Click to expand...

We are warned against "any" manmade theology.

Jer. 23: 16 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, Hearken not unto the words of the prophets that prophesy unto you: they make you vain: they speak a vision "of their own heart", and not out of the mouth of the LORD.

17 They say still unto them that despise me, The LORD hath said, Ye shall have peace; and they say unto "every one" that walketh after the imagination of his own heart, No evil shall come upon you.

Truly Calvinism isn't the only religious philosophy of this world who promotes the "vision" above.
 
Aeliana said:
That would be the god of this world satan. Satan, is described as one who seeks to cause downfall and prevent Christian growth. If you believe in Calvinism you have no need for christian growth. So Satan has got the victory of the calvinist unless they come to the knowledge of the truth and leave that false man-made theology in the dust. Shake it off of you feet.
Click to expand...
Yes some attribute the nature of our loving God and make Him out to be like the god of this world. A god of hate, not Love. It’s an assault on the Goodness of God and attributing evil to His name.
 
 
Adherent said:
False doctrines have been part of Satan's attack on God and God's people since Adam and Eve.
Click to expand...
That’s why there are so baby warnings to believers about being deceived. Truth mixed with lies- the very tool of Satan from the beginning in the garden. Look how he tried the same tactic on Jesus in the 3 temptations quoting scripture and ripping it from its context and intended meaning.

Sound familiar?
 
civic said:
Nope the parable never says they are regenerated before hearing and believing the gospel. That’s your eisegesis at work to twist Gods word into a pretzel

Matthew 13- The Parable of the Sower


1The same day went Jesus out of the house, and sat by the sea side.
2 And great multitudes were gathered together unto him, so that he went into a ship, and sat; and the whole multitude stood on the shore.
3 And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow;
4 And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up:
5 Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth:
6 And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.
7 And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them:
8 But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.
9 Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.


10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.
17 For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.


18 Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.


19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.

22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.

23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

T- man can choose to hear, see and receive the gospel
U- all can choose to believe and receive as demonstrated in the parable of the 4 soils
L- all soils received the seed without exception
I- 3 soils resisted all but 1 soil remained faithful and did not resist
P- 3/4 soils ( minds/hearts )did not preserver in the faith

1- Only something alive can be choked. You cannot choke the dead. And as we can see they all had life to begin with in each soil.
2- Only something alive can be scorched by the Sun and withered.
3- Only someone alive can receive the word in the heart and have it snatched away
4- Only someone alive can receive the word with Joy and endure for a while

Some O.T. light shed upon the N.T. :)

Jeremiah 4:3, and Hosea 10:12 say the following,

For thus saith the LORD to the men of Judah and Jerusalem, Break up your fallow ground, and sow not among thorns.
Jeremiah 4:3

Sow to yourselves in righteousness, reap in mercy; break up your fallow ground: for it is time to seek the LORD, till he come and rain righteousness upon you. Hosea 10:12

Both of these verses say that WE are to prepare the soil of our hearts! It is WE who do the plowing.


hope this helps !!!
Click to expand...
The good soil is the regenerated heart that's the only one that can believe the gospel and understand it spiritually

See the word for understand in Matt 13:23

23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

Its the greek word syniēmi :

  1. o set or bring together
    1. in a hostile sense, of combatants
  2. to put (as it were) the perception with the thing perceived
    1. to set or join together in the mind
      1. i.e. to understand: the man of understanding
      2. idiom for: a good and upright man (having the knowledge of those things which pertain to salvation)

And its the same word Paul uses in Rom 3:11 when describing the depravity of man by nature, stating what the depraved man by nature doesnt do

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

So it stands to biblical analysis that the one who understands in Matt 13:23 and bears fruit is the regenerate new heart, the good ground.

None of the other soils or grounds are said to understandteth the word.
 
Jeff said:
Not so. How would you fit John 3:16 into that equation?

For God so greatly loved and dearly prized the world that He [even] gave up His only begotten (unique) Son, so that whoever believes in (trusts in, clings to, relies on) Him shall not perish (come to destruction, be lost) but have eternal (everlasting) life.
Click to expand...
Yes so,man is dead to God spiritually by nature. Mn died to God in Adam Rom 5 15

But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
 
Adherent said:
False doctrines have been part of Satan's attack on God and God's people since Adam and Eve.
Click to expand...

Yes, and remember the most important part of these many warnings, in my view, is that these falsehoods we are warned to "beware of" come from religious men who "profess to know God", who "come in Christ's Name", who call Jesus Lord, Lord, who "Transform themselves" into apostles of Christ.

It is said of this same "satan" that it deceived the whole world, except One Man. Shall we not then "Come out of her"?

It's a great study, but one that causes men to be broken, as it is written.
 
Studyman said:
Yes, and remember the most important part of these many warnings, in my view, is that these falsehoods we are warned to "beware of" come from religious men who "profess to know God", who "come in Christ's Name", who call Jesus Lord, Lord, who "Transform themselves" into apostles of Christ.

It is said of this same "satan" that it deceived the whole world, except One Man. Shall we not then "Come out of her"?

It's a great study, but one that causes men to be broken, as it is written.
Click to expand...
Amen 🙏
 
synergy said:
Another massive failure on your part to understand that Paul's Corinthian audience is already regenerated believers and not part of a calvinist caste system. Even regenerated people can fall back into a "natural" state. Paul accused many of being still "babes" in the faith. Calvinist caste systems are a product of Hindu beliefs. We are Christian believers, not Hindu believers. Do you understand?
Click to expand...

All religion is about power. Christ rules in a man's heart or other men take His rightful place......Regeneration does not eliminate our natural state.

We can not learn Spiritual things except through our natural senses. Which is why Calvinism is such a ridiculous prospect.
 

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