Total Depravity

[praise_yeshua]

I love it when pride is mistaken for humility with being the chosen ones.

Yeah. Not sure why a "chosen one" has to actually tell someone else that they've been chosen....

Such thoughts provide a very real basis for why we "preach not ourselves but Christ". The Gospel has largely become "follow me" not "follow Christ".

 

[praise_yeshua]

I hear that. But I guess we're just not supposed to hang on to our anger.

The phrase, "Don't let the sun go down while you are still angry," is a paraphrase of a verse in the Psalms, "Don't sin by letting anger control you.

Prisons are full of people that didn't follow that scripture.

"Be angry and sin not".....

There are many reasons to be angry. Good reasons to be angry. Anger isn't sin in of itself. It is what we chose to do with our anger. Jesus "drove out" evil men from the Temple. He didn't sin in doing so. Sometimes anger over good things push us to action when action is needed. We must be lead by the Spirit of God in doing so. There are almost always exceptions to rudimentary "commandments". Which is why any set of laws could never actually perfectly lead anyone to do what is right.... "all the time". Jesus healed lepers when laws were written to keep lepers confined to misery.

Just making the point. I'm not looking to make people angry. Just to tell the Truth. If the Truth makes others angry, then so be it.

 

[Jay]

"Be angry and sin not".....

There are many reasons to be angry. Good reasons to be angry. Anger isn't sin in of itself. It is what we chose to do with our anger. Jesus "drove out" evil men from the Temple. He didn't sin in doing so. Sometimes anger over good things push us to action when action is needed. We must be lead by the Spirit of God in doing so. There are almost always exceptions to rudimentary "commandments". Which is why any set of laws could never actually perfectly lead anyone to do what is right.... "all the time". Jesus healed lepers when laws were written to keep lepers confined to misery.

Just making the point. I'm not looking to make people angry. Just to tell the Truth. If the Truth makes others angry, then so be it.

I totally agree with you. I don't want to make anyone angry either. It's a lot more fun to get along with people. But you have to stand up for what you believe in. Jesus wasn't real happy with the money exchangers turning his father's house into a den of thieves.

I guess you could just look at it as they're being different types of anger, righteous anger and selfish anger.

 

[TibiasDad]

You seem to be delusional. I never mentioned one single Jew. Yet here you are referencing Jews. I didn't reference one single Gentile, yet here you are referencing Gentiles.

You're a false accuser of Godly men you know nothing about and men that Paul didn't reference.

You have a false gospel just like every Calvinist. You're no better than them. In fact, in many ways, you're worse.

So go ahead. Show that I referenced a Jew or a Gentile. Go for it "false accuser".

Your propensity for ignoring the facts and creating a strawman issue to create a rabbit hole is evidence of your lack of ability to engage with ideas and evidence in a civil manner. Ad hominem statements are bad form, and not reflective of Christ.

If I had the authority, I would delete your account due to this behavior, or at least suspend it. And were it not for my moderating responsibilities, I would ignore you completely.

I have never called you an enemy , I have never referred to you as having a false gospel or being a heretic. I simply have disagreed with your understanding of another poster’s comment about Gen 6:4-5. If that is delusional, then I don’t want your brand of sanity. I was taught that if I come to a point of disagreement with someone, that I should disagree in an agreeable manner. I have tried to live up to that edict, though I have not always succeeded. If this is an example of such failure, I apologize for any perceived rudeness. I have tried to be honest in the kindest possible way. My conscience is clear.

May the peace of God that defies understanding be yours,

Doug

 

[praise_yeshua]

I totally agree with you. I don't want to make anyone angry either. It's a lot more fun to get along with people. But you have to stand up for what you believe in. Jesus wasn't real happy with the money exchangers turning his father's house into a den of thieves.

I guess you could just look at it as they're being different types of anger, righteous anger and selfish anger.

That is a good way to look at it. Well said!

 

[Frank]

Your propensity for ignoring the facts and creating a strawman issue to create a rabbit hole is evidence of your lack of ability to engage with ideas and evidence in a civil manner. Ad hominem statements are bad form, and not reflective of Christ.

If I had the authority, I would delete your account due to this behavior, or at least suspend it. And were it not for my moderating responsibilities, I would ignore you completely.

I have never called you an enemy , I have never referred to you as having a false gospel or being a heretic. I simply have disagreed with your understanding of another poster’s comment about Gen 6:4-5. If that is delusional, then I don’t want your brand of sanity. I was taught that if I come to a point of disagreement with someone, that I should disagree in an agreeable manner. I have tried to live up to that edict, though I have not always succeeded. If this is an example of such failure, I apologize for any perceived rudeness. I have tried to be honest in the kindest possible way. My conscience is clear.

May the peace of God that defies understanding be yours,

Doug

I'm going to learn to disagree in an agreeable manner.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Your propensity for ignoring the facts and creating a strawman issue to create a rabbit hole is evidence of your lack of ability to engage with ideas and evidence in a civil manner. Ad hominem statements are bad form, and not reflective of Christ.

Telling the Truth is always required of me.

If I had the authority, I would delete your account due to this behavior, or at least suspend it. And were it not for my moderating responsibilities, I would ignore you completely.

I know you would. You're floundering. You have no idea what you're saying. You can't defend yourself so you prefer to "delete" those who stand against you.

I have never called you an enemy , I have never referred to you as having a false gospel

You do. Just like Calvinists do. You don't mind it when I tell a Calvinist this.

or being a heretic.

You are against the pure Gospel of Jesus Christ. Many people are. Most "Christians" are. I have never called you a heretic. Quote me. I very rarely use the word at all. From memory, I don't honestly know if I've even used that word here.

I've told you many times that I have a low threshold for faith and being accepted in the beloved. I apply that equally. I apply that to you. When it comes to doctrine that glorifies Jesus Christ, you prefer doctrine that glorifies Wesley. You're not alone. Most people do this. Just replace the name "Wesley" with some other man.

I simply have disagreed with your understanding of another poster’s comment about Gen 6:4-5. If that is delusional, then I don’t want your brand of sanity. I was taught that if I come to a point of disagreement with someone, that I should disagree in an agreeable manner. I have tried to live up to that edict, though I have not always succeeded. If this is an example of such failure, I apologize for any perceived rudeness. I have tried to be honest in the kindest possible way. My conscience is clear.

May the peace of God that defies understanding be yours,

Doug

I used the word "delusional" because of how you're ignoring the obvious. Just tell me where I mentioned a Jew or a Gentile in context to verses you're quoting.

Honestly brother, and I sincerely mean that, you miss so many obvious things because your perspective has been tainted with doctrinal nonsense from others. I abandoned such doctrinal nonsense a very long time ago. You're a competent Wesleyan Arminian. In my book, that means nothing relative to a good working faith in Jesus Christ. Are you saved, I have little to no doubt that you are. Yet, I'm not the Judge of any man.

I'll wait for you to detail how men that lived long before Abraham was ever called were Jews and Gentiles.

I'll go line by line with you through the book of Romans if you like. You can't make the argument you're making given the evidence.

 

[TibiasDad]

Telling the Truth is always required of me.

Your truth is not necessarily the truth!

know you would. You're floundering. You have no idea what you're saying. You can't defend yourself so you prefer to "delete" those who stand against you.

I said quite clearly and specifically why I would want to delete your account (or anyone else’s for that matter), and that was “due to this behavior” of equating me with Satan, saying “You are against the pure Gospel of Jesus Christ.” (which is akin to accusing me of heresy) and saying I am making false accusations, which is saying I’m a liar.

I wouldn’t delete anyone for simply disagreeing with me, for that would mean I would be the only one here, and sometimes I even disagree with myself, so that wouldn’t work out very well.

You have said yourself that I am a good defender of Wesleyan thought. So I must be able to defend my own position.

When it comes to doctrine that glorifies Jesus Christ, you prefer doctrine that glorifies Wesley. You're not alone. Most people do this. Just replace the name "Wesley" with some other man.

You’re not talking about me! I am Wesleyan in perspective, but I have never exalted Wesley himself over Christ, and I defy you to example me of doing so. I have great respect for Wesley’s teachings and place in history, but he wasn’t perfect by any stretch of the imagination. I would probably place Charles Wesley as a ‘hero’ over John; but all allegiance is to Christ alone.

I used the word "delusional" because of how you're ignoring the obvious.

That is not the definition of delusional.

A delusional person believes things that couldn't possibly be true. If you're convinced that the microwave is attempting to control your thoughts, you are, sadly, delusional. (https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/delusional#:~:text=A delusional person believes things,yourself by believing outrageous things.)

Just tell me where I mentioned a Jew or a Gentile in context to verses you're quoting.

<Sigh> I never said any such thing. I said that Paul classified humanity as a whole as being either Jewish or non-Jewish (Gentile). Thus, he is saying the whole of Adamic humanity, without exception is under sin, and always has been.

I'll wait for you to detail how men that lived long before Abraham was ever called were Jews and Gentiles.

Paul’s point is that all humanity, regardless of particular designations is under sin. Prior to Abraham, “Jews” were nonexistent, but there were all kinds of groups within the whole of humanity. All members of these communities are equally human so if all humanity, in Paul’s view, is sinful in nature/under the power of sin, then that includes Cain and Abel. Again, to use your argument, can you prove that Abel, Seth and Enoch didn’t ever sin? The answer to both of our questions is “No!” And this is because you cannot make an argument from silence, from a lack of information one way or another.

I have no logical or Biblical reason to limit Paul’s quotations of the Psalms and Isaiah’s use of “all” or “none” or “no one” or similar language to less that 100% of humanity born of Adam. That’s why Jesus’s birth was not by Joseph (Adam); it was the only way to be human in form and still be sinless in nature of his living spirit.

Doug

 

[praise_yeshua]

Your truth is not necessarily the truth!

Neither is your's. Why make such arguments when such things can equally be applied to both of us. It is nothing but a waste of time. You're promoting yourself above me with such nonsense. I have equal access to God as you do. I have access to the all the extant information available for study.

I said quite clearly and specifically why I would want to delete your account (or anyone else’s for that matter), and that was “due to this behavior” of equating me with Satan, saying “You are against the pure Gospel of Jesus Christ.” (which is akin to accusing me of heresy) and saying I am making false accusations, which is saying I’m a liar.

To me, heretic and heresy are two different things. One carries the connotation of being a reject and the other is common among believers. Believers can believe some rather silly and damaging things. Take Peter for example. Jesus called Peter "Satan". If you're going to condemn me for doing the same, then you know WHO you need to apply your same standard to.... His name is Jesus. So go for it.

I wouldn’t delete anyone for simply disagreeing with me, for that would mean I would be the only one here, and sometimes I even disagree with myself, so that wouldn’t work out very well.

You have said yourself that I am a good defender of Wesleyan thought. So I must be able to defend my own position.

No. You're able to state the Wesleyan position accurately and that means very little to nothing.

You’re not talking about me! I am Wesleyan in perspective, but I have never exalted Wesley himself over Christ, and I defy you to example me of doing so. I have great respect for Wesley’s teachings and place in history, but he wasn’t perfect by any stretch of the imagination. I would probably place Charles Wesley as a ‘hero’ over John; but all allegiance is to Christ alone.

As do most any Wesleyan with an accurate Wesleyan theology. Your words betray your allegiance. You call yourself a Wesleyan. That is shameful.

That is not the definition of delusional.

Sure it is.... The English language is a prickly thing. There is more than one definition for most any given word you might choose because of how mankind varies in the their application of such. Webster tried to unify the English dialect but you should know how that "turned out".

Here. This is a common definition for delusional. "based on or having faulty judgment; mistaken."

No. I don't believe you have a mental problem relative to a cognitive state like "Brandon".

<Sigh> I never said any such thing. I said that Paul classified humanity as a whole as being either Jewish or non-Jewish (Gentile). Thus, he is saying the whole of Adamic humanity, without exception is under sin, and always has been.

Which is a lie. Jew has a definition. Gentile has a definition. So you actually reference a dictionary and then put that same dictionary away when you prefer to lie about Paul.

Definition for "lie". Lie = used with reference to a situation involving deception

I wonder why Paul said....

Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression

Abel didn't sin and you claim that he did. You're a false accuser. The same with many other men. You have a false gospel that deceives.

Paul’s point is that all humanity, regardless of particular designations is under sin. Prior to Abraham, “Jews” were nonexistent, but there were all kinds of groups within the whole of humanity. All members of these communities are equally human so if all humanity, in Paul’s view, is sinful in nature/under the power of sin, then that includes Cain and Abel. Again, to use your argument, can you prove that Abel, Seth and Enoch didn’t ever sin? The answer to both of our questions is “No!” And this is because you cannot make an argument from silence, from a lack of information one way or another.

No. That is your point. You don't speak for Paul. He spoke for himself. What he said is very clear. You're deceptively adding your (Wesley's) perspective to what Paul said.

We believe in the principles of innocence till proven Guilty. Which is established in the Scriptures with "in the mouth of two or three witnesses". I hope you're not a elder of any sort commanding authority over men. We rejected such "Kingship" over men when we cast off the evils of the British Empire.

I have no logical or Biblical reason to limit Paul’s quotations of the Psalms and Isaiah’s use of “all” or “none” or “no one” or similar language to less that 100% of humanity born of Adam. That’s why Jesus’s birth was not by Joseph (Adam); it was the only way to be human in form and still be sinless in nature of his living spirit.

Doug

There is context to any such statements as Paul made. You would have Christ sinful from birth because He was born of a women. Like Abel. Abel died because of the sins of others. Not because of his own sin. Abel was innocent and unjustly murdered because his deeds were good and Cain's was evil.

Eve was sinful. She had a seed. The seed of the women.... remember?

I wish you abandon this nonsense that you've learned from men.

 

[3in1]

Genesis 6:5 Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Has mankind changed since then? How would that be possible?

When man lives anywhere from 500-900 years in rebellion against God they have become wicked and evil as a way of life. The continual evil is a way of life. I grew up with the Bible being taught in school. I grew up with morals and values that were taught in school and in the home. This is the complete opposite of those in Genesis 6. There is no comparison between us and them.

 

[praise_yeshua]

When man lives anywhere from 500-900 years in rebellion against God they have become wicked and evil as a way of life. The continual evil is a way of life. I grew up with the Bible being taught in school. I grew up with morals and values that were taught in school and in the home. This is the complete opposite of those in Genesis 6. There is no comparison between us and them.

Have you stopped to consider what you're taught as being good is actually evil to God? Just saying....

I've discovered in my life that what I was taught was evil was actually good to God. Same thing with what we were taught was good. Can actually be evil. Just imagine the evils that have been perpetrated with the false doctrine of the "tithe". Robbers and thieves live off the "tithe".

Isa 5:20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!
Isa 5:21 Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight!

Contrary to what you're saying the Godly line of Abel/Seth only gradually became evil. Adam lived to see 7 generations. Adam was Godly influence upon his offspring. God drove Cain away from Adam and Eve. Seth flourished with Godly parents. Faithful parents. The same was said of Abraham.

Gen 18:19 For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.

That changed with the descendants of Abraham. (Except for Christ. The only Eternal Heir of Abraham).

 

[civic]

Have you stopped to consider what you're taught as being good is actually evil to God? Just saying....

I've discovered in my life that what I was taught was evil was actually good to God. Same thing with what we were taught was good. Can actually be evil. Just imagine the evils that have been perpetrated with the false doctrine of the "tithe". Robbers and thieves live off the "tithe".

Isa 5:20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!
Isa 5:21 Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight!

Contrary to what you're saying the Godly line of Abel/Seth only gradually became evil. Adam lived to see 7 generations. Adam was Godly influence upon his offspring. God drove Cain away from Adam and Eve. Seth flourished with Godly parents. Faithful parents. The same was said of Abraham.

Gen 18:19 For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.

That changed with the descendants of Abraham. (Except for Christ. The only Eternal Heir of Abraham).

Genesis 6 is the days of Noah a specific generation of evil.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Genesis 6 is the days of Noah a specific generation of evil.

True. However, I don't believe this changes anything I said. Sin is progressive. It has always been progressive. It gets worse and worse over time. Which leads to apostasy and reprobation.

Which is the generation you're referencing and the generation that Paul referenced in Romans 1.

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Rom 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
Rom 1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
Rom 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
Rom 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
Rom 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

Jesus even spoke of how "from the beginning this was not so".

So there is a gap between the faithful righteousness of Adam, Eve, Abel and Seth to generations that gradually built to the reprobation of the generation of Noah.

The flesh of man that we experience now in our generation is dramatically more susceptible to suffering in the flesh than it were in the first generations of humanity.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

When man lives anywhere from 500-900 years in rebellion against God they have become wicked and evil as a way of life. The continual evil is a way of life. I grew up with the Bible being taught in school. I grew up with morals and values that were taught in school and in the home. This is the complete opposite of those in Genesis 6. There is no comparison between us and them.

Are you saying that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually BECAUSE they lived 500-900 years? So if they had died under 100 years of age, that wouldn't be true?

 

[civic]

True. However, I don't believe this changes anything I said. Sin is progressive. It has always been progressive. It gets worse and worse over time. Which leads to apostasy and reprobation.

Which is the generation you're referencing and the generation that Paul referenced in Romans 1.

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Rom 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
Rom 1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
Rom 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
Rom 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
Rom 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

Jesus even spoke of how "from the beginning this was not so".

So there is a gap between the faithful righteousness of Adam, Eve, Abel and Seth to generations that gradually built to the reprobation of the generation of Noah.

The flesh of man that we experience now in our generation is dramatically more susceptible to suffering in the flesh than it were in the first generations of humanity.

I believe Roman’s 1 is describing the generation in Noah’s day that God wiped out due to their wickedness. JMHO FWIW

 

[civic]

Are you saying that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually BECAUSE they lived 500-900 years? So if they had died under 100 years of age, that wouldn't be true?

Are you telling me man is smarter living 80 years than man was at 900 years ?

Next

 

[praise_yeshua]

I believe Roman’s 1 is describing the generation in Noah’s day that God wiped out due to their wickedness. JMHO FWIW

We agree!

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Genesis 6 is the days of Noah a specific generation of evil.

Where is the Biblical support for that being a generation of evil but not apply to generations afterward? I personally think that is true, but I doubt if most people would argue it from my perspective. What is your Biblical support?

 

[civic]

Where is the Biblical support for that being a generation of evil but not apply to generations afterward? I personally think that is true, but I doubt if most people would argue it from my perspective. What is your Biblical support?

It’s why God wiped them out with the flood

 

[praise_yeshua]

It’s why God wiped them out with the flood

What better begins (again) than Noah and the eight righteous souls that survived the flood....

1Pe 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.