Title: So You Think Predestination Started When and With Whom?

[Red Baker]

@jeremiah1five

Knowing these two things and realizing back in 1977 I became born-again the only conclusion I can reach is that there is at least ONE Hebrew parent in my ancestry. Given that my mother's maiden name originated centuries ago in Spain in a Jewish grotto, does cause me to wonder. But the above is true. The only way for me - a presumed Gentile - to have the Holy Spirit of Promise in my born-again life is that there MUST be a Hebrew parent in my family line.

So, your hope of eternal life is that you have Jewish blood in your veins. Jeremiah if that's what you are trusting in then your faith is worthless, and not according to the scriptures. This should concern you, but obviously it does not. Let's say, you do not, then what?

1st John 5:1​

“Whosoever (Jew or Gentile) believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.”

John 1:13​

“Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.”

Jeremiah, both of these scriptures and hundreds more, said that you are in serious error.

Abraham is the father of many nations of people, not just Jews.

A few years back when I had my own business, (irrigation and landscaping) I was doing a job for a gentleman named Dr. Schwartz a foot doctor. As I was working installing the irrigation system, I said to one of my foreman's ......."I wish I had not let Dr. Schwartz jew me down'...., without even thinking. His wife was somewhere close enough to hear me, even though I did not see her, and she told her husband what I said. When I was there collecting and showing Mr. Schwartz how to use his system, he mentioned this to me and said he did not appreciate me saying that since his people had suffered so much at the hands of Adolf Hilter, etc. I apologize to him and reminded him that I would never offend the Jewish people, since Abraham was my spiritual father, making me more a son of Abraham than any natural Jew was. He was taken back with that and just left the subject alone.

As side note, my foreman whose name was John said to me: " I do not know why he got so upset, when I never get upset when someone said to me........... I got to use the john"! I think John had a good point.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Werewolf.


Very true.


I did also.


I understand as did I when I got the conviction of the Holy Spirit that no one could ever doubt.


AND PATIENCE>


I used to almost daily. Funny that,,,, the forum ( all of them) seem to be so down on that. Twice I had personal confirmation.
Once , as it seemed like I was praying or speaking in tongues it seemed quite repetitious to me, and I was not around anyone who could interpret. so I put as it sounded into the computer and it came back as a mideastern language.
Then, a few years later I was speaking a different tongue. It was fact because I could never roll my Rs. Had trouble keeping the grades up in high school French because of that. And when my mother died and my dad remarried a lady of Italian decent
she decided we all needed to speak Italian, just in case we got to Italy (never did) and again, I could not roll my Rs, so imagine the day I was speaking in tongues and just as easy and fluidly cam those beautiful rolled Rs. It was the onlt time, and to this day my tongue defies me that way.

This is truly great for you.


As it should be. Only between you.

Interesting you recorded yourself and put your tongue in a computer.
Overall, I'd say you are brethren.
Let's fight!

 

[jeremiah1five]

@jeremiah1five

I've been in the faith for over fifty years and have never spoken is an unknown tongue, never. I have never given my flesh over to be used in any way, but have maintain control of my spirt, submitting myself to God's word as the only source of my faith.

Jeremiah, we have spoken many times over, and I truly believe you have been deceived and are living under a strong delusion, thinking that eternal life is in the blood line of Abraham, and not by the grace of God through Jesus' shed blood. I'm not saying you are not a child of God, that is not by call, but, I can tell you that you are deceived in thinking God is not visiting the Gentiles to take out of them a people for his name sake, to join them with elect Jews, to make one holy spiritual temple in Jesus Christ.

When I first became a Christian, I was taught by a pastor who was taught by Assemblies of God.
The sermons were a mixture of Arminianism and Calvinism as I look back. It took me some years to recognize this.
This church was strong on evangelism and going into the streets and witnessing whoever.
As I got more familiar with my Sword (and I always used a KJV) there were things said from the pulpit at times that didn't jive with what was written. Throughout all these years I continued in personal study and used commentaries and then theology books. James Strong was my linguist. I only used his definitions because most of the other concordances would "lead the witness" in their definition entries by telling me how to use the word and what the word meant. Strong's didn't do that. If I look up a word, I will get a one-word corresponding definition and I am left with thinking things through and of course, under the anointing.
As my knowledge grew so did my understanding. In 1995 I spoke in tongues, and this changed me and my studying, especially in light of the interpretation of my tongues. I learned my call, my place in the body, and my spiritual gifts.
I received counseling from my pastor as we later sat in her office, and we went over what was recorded, and I was counseled. Then, I was sent out. Soon, I had moved away too far from my adopted church to attend but was now walking as a man of God on my own.

I had learned through theology books all the doctrines held in Christendom. I know them all.
Now, on the point you bring up thinking I am deceived I will tell you what I see and what I know.
I know God does not lie.
I know that God made a covenant with a Hebrew man named Abram. Abram is a descendant of Eber, and his family goes all the way back to Shem, Noah's son.
Abraham's covenant is found in Genesis 12, 15, and 17.
It's quite simple and I'm surprised I haven't met too many who see as I see on the subject.
I know God is dealing with one man and his wife. They are half-brother and sister and both from the family of Eber.
When I come across "nations" and "families of the earth" I believe that since Abraham is to be the father of millions the "nations" and "families of the earth" must be in context to Abraham and his future seed. If God was to include non-Hebrew Gentiles (descendants of Ham and Japheth) He would be as precise by saying "Gentile" and also revealing the name of this Gentile with whom it is said God made covenant with. But I don't find that in Scripture. And I cannot interpret "nations" and "families of the earth" as Gentiles because if Gentiles were to be included in this covenant it would say so and not leave words like "nations" and "families of the earth" up to be interpreted as Gentiles or non-Hebrews.
God is personal. There are countless men and women in Scripture God reveals Himself to and for the most part these persons are named. There is interaction. But for some reason there is nothing in Scripture of a non-Hebrew Gentiles whom God has blessed with covenant. I don't see God piggy-backing Gentiles on Abraham's covenant because there is no mention of Gentiles in the text, and it clearly says Abraham's seed.
If God made covenant with non-Hebrew Gentiles, then there would be a description of the covenant and there would be a man who is named with whom is receiver of such covenant but there is none.

In Scripture the Hebrews lived in Goshen. In Scripture it says that God delivered Hebrews from bondage and still I find no mention of Gentiles being freed. The whole reason why the Hebrews was to be enslaved and controlled was because they began to become the majority in contrast to the Egyptians and this is why they were enslaved and controlled. Non-Hebrew Gentiles - if there were any living among the Hebrews in Goshen - were not a threat to Egypt. But then again Gentiles were not enslaved. It was a Hebrews only policy. And while in bondage God commanded the Hebrews participate in the Passover event and ritual. God commanded the Hebrews to apply the sacrificial blood on their doorframes and the Angel of Death would Passover those in that house. Gentiles did not participate in this for it was given strictly to the Hebrew people and they obeyed. The next day Moses led the Hebrews out of Egypt and into the desert where God made covenant with this people of millions and they built a Tabernacle according to God's instructions. It was God who situated the families of Jacob (or tribes) around the Tabernacle, three to a side. If there were non-Hebrew Gentiles among them they were situated far from the Hebrew encampment. The Pentateuch, or the five books of Moses describes everything one needed to know about the God of Abraham and His dealings with the Hebrew people. God gave the Hebrews His Law to live by. Under the Law of God there was a high priest who did two things: he prayed for the people of God in covenant and offered sacrifices for the people of God in covenant. Scripture says that on Yom Kippur there was a temporary yearly atonement performed that absolved the children of Israel of their sins. Nowhere are Gentiles sprinkled with the blood, only the Hebrews. Nowhere do I read of the high priest leaving the land, travel to the Gentiles and offer sacrifices for their sins.

When Jesus arrived, He came with many titles, one of which is High Priest (Hebrews 3:1.) Under the Law the high priest interceded for the Hebrew people, even going as far as to enter the Holy of Holies of the Tabernacle. Jesus interceded for the Hebrew people by praying for them in John 17 and then offered Himself as sacrifice in John 19.
Jesus said He did not come to destroy the Law but to fulfill it. How does changing the Law lead to its destruction?
Let's take the Ten Commandments which was written on stone by the finger of God Himself. Then He gave the tablets to Moses to later be placed in the Ark of the Covenant. God's Word is written on stone. God is not going to change it. It is eternal as written. But if a man were to attempt to add, or subtract, what was written in the Law to change it he'd have to use a chisel. The person who would try to change the Law using a chisel runs the risk of chipping off a piece of stone he was not intending or even cracking or breaking the stone tablet thus destroying it. It is ruined. No glue, no tape, it is ruined. This is what Jesus meant when He said I did not come to destroy the Law (by trying to chisel-change it), but to fulfill it. It's simple. If the high priest did not pray for non-Hebrew Gentiles nor offer sacrifices for non-Hebrew Gentiles, then when Jesus arrived with the intent to fulfill the Law, then as High Priest neither did He pray for the world of non-Hebrew Gentiles nor offer Himself as sacrifice for their sins, especially when at the last Passover Jesus sitting with twelve Jewish men who represented the twelve tribes of Israel says His body and blood are "given for you", for the Hebrews. At this point, those who claim non-Hebrew Gentiles were atoned at the cross of Jesus Christ are teaching Jesus changed the Law thus destroying it, and this is sin. When we get to the New Covenant prophecy by Jeremiah, He states with whom God is making this New Covenant with and they are identified in his prophecy as the House of Israel (ten northern kingdom tribes), and the House of Judah (two southern kingdom tribes. In John 17:9 Jesus is explicit, He said, "I pray not for the world" and the world is the non-Hebrew Gentiles. If non-Hebrew Gentiles were to be among the atoned, then the time to pray and offer sacrifice for them is right here and now (John 17.)
But Jesus did not do that.

If God wanted to atone non-Hebrew Gentiles and make a covenant with them God would choose out a Gentile man and speak terms to him and we would know this Gentile's name. In fact, as time goes forward there would be a Gentile Bible written of God's dealing with this people, there will be prophets and other important and significant men and women God would carry through the decades and centuries. God would give them His Law and there would be sacrifices ordered as part of worship and fellowship, but there is nothing in Scripture about this. If the high priest entered the Tabernacle and if one Gentile man is atoned, then Jesus would have to fulfill that and name Gentiles as part of those who were to be atoned along with the Hebrews. Now, we get into something called Universalism. WHY would God separate the Hebrews from the rest of the Adamites and give the Hebrews circumcision to set them apart from the rest of the Adamites?

No, I take Scripture as written. I don't add or subtract what is written there. I am very familiar as to God's behavior and the way He does things. If God ever made a covenant with non-Hebrew Gentiles, it will be described in Scripture, not left to obscure misunderstandings of interpretation of words like "nations" and "families of the earth." If God made covenant with non-Hebrew Gentiles, it will be written boldly in Scripture so there be no misunderstanding it or Him. We would know the name of this Gentile the same way God identified many times "Abraham" is the person He was speaking to. If God made a covenant with non-Hebrew Gentiles, such a covenant would have a Bible with Gentile writers called by God and given the ministry of recording God's dealings with these Gentiles through the centuries until we get to the cross. After the cross there would be Gentiles writing a couple of gospels for the Gentile people to read and understand and give God the glory He's due for their salvation. If God was to make a covenant with Gentiles they would be included from the start, they would be given their own lot around the Tabernacle, the high priest would sprinkle them with the blood of the animal sacrifice, they would be included in the New Covenant and Jeremaih would write GENTILES in his prophecy and Jesus would have prayed for the world and there would be no John 17:9.

Being that we have only one Bible and it is a Hebrew Bible and among all the families of the earth God would choose one to exalt this one family ABOVE all the families of the earth, and save this one family to the exclusion of non-Hebrew Gentiles, the only way God could save non-Hebrew Gentiles would be to scatter the Hebrews throughout Gentile lands and through marriage, rape, concubinage, and slavery, the Gentile to be included in any and all three of these Hebrew covenants is to be born of at least ONE Hebrew parent. The children would be mixed Hebrew with Gentile but because God does not lie, that child born to a mixed marriage or otherwise, would have Abraham's blood and DNA in their veins and in this they would be heirs according to the promise (Gal. 3:28-29.)

Jesus came to save the people He's made covenant with and that family is Abraham's family. But that child cannot be born from the seed of Ishmael or Esau, and all the others who are not descendant of Jacob. If so, that child would be blessed but not in covenant because Jacob inherited the covenant and later his sons and their sons and their sons ad infinitum. I believe God did plan to include Gentiles because I see His scatter a covenant people among Gentiles knowing that His covenant people would mix it up with them and have mixed heritage children. He knew. He planned it that way.

I believe in the five solas. I also believe as today's Jews do and that is God made covenant with Abram the Hebrew and Abram's Hebrew seed and that only through Christ without any action on the part of the saved to salvation is purely the grace of God and He has extended it to one people. Abraham's people. And if there are any mixed heritage children born to a Jew-Gentile patents, then by virtue of God's promise to Abraham and Abraham's blood and DNA in that child, they are in covenant with God and heirs according to the promise. The descendants of Ham and Japheth are arsed out. Unless, of course, they get with a Hebrew.

23 Thus saith the LORD of hosts;
In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations,
Even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying,
We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you.
Zechariah 8:23.

That's the only way non-Hebrew Gentiles are saved. And if God did make a covenant with non-Hebrew Gentiles we would know his name and verse 23 above would be written differently.

Salvation is OF THE LORD.
Salvation is OF THE JEWS.
But nowhere in Scripture does it say salvation is of the Gentiles.
Universalism is NOT taught in God's Word the Bible.

 

[Red Baker]

I don't see God piggy-backing Gentiles on Abraham's covenant because there is no mention of Gentiles in the text, and it clearly says Abraham's seed.

Some of what you said is of course very true, nevertheless, much is not true biblically, and can not therefore be supported by the scriptures. Jeremiah, we will let Jewish apostles explain to us how we must interpret OT prophecies, in light of the coming of Jesus Christ, the promised seed of Abraham, who would secured those promises made to Abraham and all of the elect seed of Christ.

Galatians 3:16​

“Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.”

Galatians 3:28​

“There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.”

Jeremiah, the promised of Genesis 12:1-3 was to Abraham and to his seed, not seeds as many, but to seed, as of ONE, and Paul said that was referring to CHRIST. which is so important to understand.

Now, onward to the gospels which reveals to us Christ's teachings concerning the love of God, and to whom that love was for. Was it only for the natural seed of Abraham, as though those promises in the OT, were not meant to be for any outside of the nation of Israel? Absolutely not.

John 3:16​

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”

As we both know, Jesus was speaking to Nicodemus, a leader of the Jews, and revealing to him that God's love was not confined/limited to the Jews only as it was as a whole during the OT period, from Abraham onward. But God's love was for the world, meaning Jews and Gentiles, the world here is not all without exception, but all without distinction, Jews and Gentiles. For God does indeed make exceptions among both Jews and Gentiles. Paul taught the same truth.

Romans 3:29​

“Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:”

Romans 9:24​

“Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?”

Jeremiah, you are so wrong on this thinking that the New Covenant is not for the Gentiles, and that there is a distinction between Jews and Gentiles, even still under the NT.

I have already in the past, showed you the promised land that Abraham understood it not to mean the land in the middle east, but the world to come! Romans 4:13; Hebrews 2:5; etc.

He also understood the innumerable family to be from all nations of the earth.

So Israel is a spiritual nation of elect Jews and Gentiles~ Acts 15:14-18....“Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written, After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things. Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.”

Ist Peter 2:9-10
“But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.”

Enough for now.

​

 

[FreeInChrist]

Interesting you recorded yourself and put your tongue in a computer.
Overall, I'd say you are brethren.
Let's fight!

 

[David Koberstein]

Some of what you said is of course very true, nevertheless, much is not true biblically, and can not therefore be supported by the scriptures. Jeremiah, we will let Jewish apostles explain to us how we must interpret OT prophecies, in light of the coming of Jesus Christ, the promised seed of Abraham, who would secured those promises made to Abraham and all of the elect seed of Christ.

Galatians 3:16​

“Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.”

Galatians 3:28​

“There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.”

Jeremiah, the promised of Genesis 12:1-3 was to Abraham and to his seed, not seeds as many, but to seed, as of ONE, and Paul said that was referring to CHRIST. which is so important to understand.

Now, onward to the gospels which reveals to us Christ's teachings concerning the love of God, and to whom that love was for. Was it only for the natural seed of Abraham, as though those promises in the OT, were not meant to be for any outside of the nation of Israel? Absolutely not.

John 3:16​

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”

As we both know, Jesus was speaking to Nicodemus, a leader of the Jews, and revealing to him that God's love was not confined/limited to the Jews only as it was as a whole during the OT period, from Abraham onward. But God's love was for the world, meaning Jews and Gentiles, the world here is not all without exception, but all without distinction, Jews and Gentiles. For God does indeed make exceptions among both Jews and Gentiles. Paul taught the same truth.

Romans 3:29​

“Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:”

Romans 9:24​

“Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?”

Jeremiah, you are so wrong on this thinking that the New Covenant is not for the Gentiles, and that there is a distinction between Jews and Gentiles, even still under the NT.

I have already in the past, showed you the promised land that Abraham understood it not to mean the land in the middle east, but the world to come! Romans 4:13; Hebrews 2:5; etc.

He also understood the innumerable family to be from all nations of the earth.

So Israel is a spiritual nation of elect Jews and Gentiles~ Acts 15:14-18....“Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written, After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things. Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.”

Ist Peter 2:9-10
“But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.”

Enough for now.

​

When you read Scripture. You have to ask yourself 2 things. Who is saying it? And to whom is it being said.
Shalom Aleichem

 

[jeremiah1five]

@jeremiah1five

So, your hope of eternal life is that you have Jewish blood in your veins. Jeremiah if that's what you are trusting in then your faith is worthless, and not according to the scriptures. This should concern you, but obviously it does not. Let's say, you do not, then what?

1st John 5:1​

“Whosoever (Jew or Gentile) believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.”

John 1:13​

“Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.”

Jeremiah, both of these scriptures and hundreds more, said that you are in serious error.

Nope. My hope is in Jesus Christ and Him crucified. The "whosoever" is understood to mean any Hebrew/Jew because the context of God's Word is given to them, not to Gentiles. It is "whosoever of Jews that believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God." John was a Judaizer. He knows the covenants were made first with Abram the Hebrew and his Hebrew seed, Isaac. When Isaac died without receiving the fulfillment of the promises, Jacob inherited those promises as spoken by God to Abram that it is also his seed who are the inheritors. Each son who was an inheritor and who did not receive the fulfillment of the promises inherited those promises and this continued to each succeeding generation.

The Word of God was given to and for the children of Israel. God spoke nothing to Gentiles. They were not under the Law of God. The Law of God was given to the children of Israel (Jacob.) John's word "not of blood" does not disqualify the Law of Moses. If so, then no one can or will be saved.

24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Galatians 3:23–24.

God has tied all future conversions to the Law of God. Without the Law no one will be "brought to Christ" for the prophecy of the One like unto Moses is a prophecy given to the Hebrew people whom God delivered from their bondage and who declared that such a One will be born from "among thy brethren: (meaning He would be Hebrew.)
And those who He will save are His people the Hebrews (Matthew 1:21.) Gentiles are not "His people." God looks at the nations (non-Hebrews not of the seed of Abraham) as nothing and vanity.

17 All nations before him are as nothing;
And they are counted to him less than nothing, and vanity.
Isaiah 40:17.

This is a statement addressing those born of Ham and Japheth. The nations born of Abraham are blessed of God with no covenant, and those nations born of God in covenant and blessings (Isaac, Jacob, the twelve tribes, etc.)

Abraham is the father of many nations of people, not just Jews.

I agree. He is father to the descendants of Ishamel and Esau. They are the "families of the earth" that receive blessings, but through Isaac and Jacob receive covenant AND blessings. The context is Abraham and what God spoke to him. In declaring that he would be father of many nations God was identifying his seed which are the "families of the earth" who is blessed with Abraham, but the promise goes through Isaac, not Ishmael, although Ishmael receives blessings by virtue of being of Abraham's seed. They are blessed but have no covenant. Isaac is blessed and possesses covenant.

A few years back when I had my own business, (irrigation and landscaping) I was doing a job for a gentleman named Dr. Schwartz a foot doctor. As I was working installing the irrigation system, I said to one of my foreman's ......."I wish I had not let Dr. Schwartz jew me down'...., without even thinking. His wife was somewhere close enough to hear me, even though I did not see her, and she told her husband what I said. When I was there collecting and showing Mr. Schwartz how to use his system, he mentioned this to me and said he did not appreciate me saying that since his people had suffered so much at the hands of Adolf Hilter, etc. I apologize to him and reminded him that I would never offend the Jewish people, since Abraham was my spiritual father, making me more a son of Abraham than any natural Jew was. He was taken back with that and just left the subject alone.

As side note, my foreman whose name was John said to me: " I do not know why he got so upset, when I never get upset when someone said to me........... I got to use the john"! I think John had a good point.

If Abraham is your spiritual father, then Abraham would also be your natural father through natural birth. If you are truly born again, then you would have at least one Hebrew parent in your ancestry for the Spirit that would birth you was never promised to Gentiles (Joel) but was promised to Israel (seed of Jacob) only.

From Genesis to Malachi God's Word is Hebrew through and through. These Scriptures record God's dealing with one people - Hebrews who are inheritors of the promise. If Ishmael married into Egyptian seed, he is still blessed because he is Abraham's seed. But only blessed with no covenant for the covenant AND blessings goes through Isaac, the child of promise.

21 But my covenant will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year.
Genesis 17:21.

Promises made, promises kept.

Where have I heard that before?

 

[Red Baker]

@jeremiah1five

Nope. My hope is in Jesus Christ and Him crucified.

Have you done a DNA test? What if you did and the results were no Jewish blood in your family genealogy? Would that undermine your faith in Christ? I in all sincerity trust that it would not, but not so sure, since you have been brainwashed in believing that no Gentiles have any hope of eternal life only because they lack Jewish blood flowing in their veins. I did a DNA test, not because I wanted to know if I had Jewish blood, but just out of curiosity, no more. I have zero Jewish blood, mostly my forefathers on my father's side came from Germany ~ I'm 45% German; Mother's folks came from England. Besides, genealogy is an endless search, that leads to no where for the most part. Folks desire to find someone important in their bloodline when the truth is, we all are sinners and all of our history is recorded for us to see in Romans 3:10-18.....a very sad commentary indeed of every single person born of flesh and blood.

1st Timothy 1:4​

“Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.”

The "whosoever" is understood to mean any Hebrew/Jew because the context of God's Word is given to them, not to Gentiles. It is "whosoever of Jews that believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God." John was a Judaizer. He knows the covenants were made first with Abram the Hebrew and his Hebrew seed, Isaac. When Isaac died without receiving the fulfillment of the promises, Jacob inherited those promises as spoken by God to Abram that it is also his seed who are the inheritors. Each son who was an inheritor and who did not receive the fulfillment of the promises inherited those promises and this continued to each succeeding generation.

Jeremiah, you sir, are being dishonest with God's word, shame on you. Yes, John and Peter and the rest of the apostles were sent to the Jews, and Paul to the Gentiles. According to Galatians 2:9; so, when John wrote his epistles to the Jews, he was reminding them that the gospel and its spiritual blessings were not limited to the Jews ONLY but to whosoever, meaning be they Jews or Gentiles. if they believe that Jesus is the Christ, then they are born of God, for without the new birth it is impossible for a Jew or a Gentile to believe in their flesh, one must firs be born of God ~ according to the verse I quote to you from 1st John 5:1. So, when John wrote:

1st John 2:2​

“And he is the propitiation for our sins: (JEWS) and not for ours (JEWS) only, but also for the sins of the whole world.”

Meaning that Jesus' death was not for the Jews only, but it including God's elect from every nations under heaven ~ the whole world is not all without exception, but all "without distinction" which you are laboring to make for the Jews only.

Revelation 7:9​

“After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;”

Jeremiah have never read so much as these words:

Romans 10:19-21​

“But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you. But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me. But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people."

You just close your eyes to such scriptures and they are literally hundreds of them. Shame on her, Jeremiah. God has been visiting the Gentiles nations for around two thousand years, and it is coming to an end very soon. The Lord is taking out of them a people for his name sake, while Abraham's natural children are still in darkness overall considered. The Gentiles nations have done just what the Jews did before Christ.... they have forsaken God, and turned unto the idols of this world, and judgement is soon coming down on them very soon as it did on the Jews and as for around two thousand years or so as a whole, not all.

If Abraham is your spiritual father, then Abraham would also be your natural father through natural birth. If you are truly born again, then you would have at least one Hebrew parent in your ancestry for the Spirit that would birth you was never promised to Gentiles (Joel) but was promised to Israel (seed of Jacob) only.

He is not my natural father, only spiritually through Christ, TO WHOM are the promises to and all who are IN Christ, be they Jews or Gentiles.

Enough for now.

 

[FreeInChrist]

@jeremiah1five

Have you done a DNA test? What if you did and the results were no Jewish blood in your family genealogy? Would that undermine your faith in Christ? I in all sincerity trust that it would not, but not so sure, since you have been brainwashed in believing that no Gentiles have any hope of eternal life only because they lack Jewish blood flowing in their veins. I did a DNA test, not because I wanted to know if I had Jewish blood, but just out of curiosity, no more. I have zero Jewish blood, mostly my forefathers on my father's side came from Germany ~ I'm 45% German; Mother's folks came from England. Besides, genealogy is an endless search, that leads to no where for the most part. Folks desire to find someone important in their bloodline when the truth is, we all are sinners

And that is exactly what I found. In all my searching. ....I have a rebel spy, a woman who had quite a life.

Brief write up>>>
Rose O'Neal Greenhow was a Confederate spy during the American Civil War, known for using her social connections in Washington, D.C., to gather and relay military information to the Confederacy. She was arrested in 1861 and continued her espionage activities even while imprisoned. (She drowned upon returning from England when she was let go from prison and still carried out her spying.)

I had a plantation owner. And think there may have been two.

One bigamist who had two families about 90 miles apart.

I had a great great grandfather captured and put on a train for Andersonville, managed to escape and made his way
to Washington and was commissioned by congress to write of his experience.

I am sure he had his own sins.. but in your own searches you are likely to find people like these.

No I am not proud, except the Andersonville train escape (if he had not I would not be here) but it is interesting to see as well as who distantly one could be related to... In my case George Washington and Lucille Ball.

OK BACK ON TOPIC

and all of our history is recorded for us to see in Romans 3:10-18.....a very sad commentary indeed of every single person born of flesh and blood.

​

​

​

 

[civic]

When I first became a Christian, I was taught by a pastor who was taught by Assemblies of God.
The sermons were a mixture of Arminianism and Calvinism as I look back. It took me some years to recognize this.
This church was strong on evangelism and going into the streets and witnessing whoever.
As I got more familiar with my Sword (and I always used a KJV) there were things said from the pulpit at times that didn't jive with what was written. Throughout all these years I continued in personal study and used commentaries and then theology books. James Strong was my linguist. I only used his definitions because most of the other concordances would "lead the witness" in their definition entries by telling me how to use the word and what the word meant. Strong's didn't do that. If I look up a word, I will get a one-word corresponding definition and I am left with thinking things through and of course, under the anointing.
As my knowledge grew so did my understanding. In 1995 I spoke in tongues, and this changed me and my studying, especially in light of the interpretation of my tongues. I learned my call, my place in the body, and my spiritual gifts.
I received counseling from my pastor as we later sat in her office, and we went over what was recorded, and I was counseled. Then, I was sent out. Soon, I had moved away too far from my adopted church to attend but was now walking as a man of God on my own.

I had learned through theology books all the doctrines held in Christendom. I know them all.
Now, on the point you bring up thinking I am deceived I will tell you what I see and what I know.
I know God does not lie.
I know that God made a covenant with a Hebrew man named Abram. Abram is a descendant of Eber, and his family goes all the way back to Shem, Noah's son.
Abraham's covenant is found in Genesis 12, 15, and 17.
It's quite simple and I'm surprised I haven't met too many who see as I see on the subject.
I know God is dealing with one man and his wife. They are half-brother and sister and both from the family of Eber.
When I come across "nations" and "families of the earth" I believe that since Abraham is to be the father of millions the "nations" and "families of the earth" must be in context to Abraham and his future seed. If God was to include non-Hebrew Gentiles (descendants of Ham and Japheth) He would be as precise by saying "Gentile" and also revealing the name of this Gentile with whom it is said God made covenant with. But I don't find that in Scripture. And I cannot interpret "nations" and "families of the earth" as Gentiles because if Gentiles were to be included in this covenant it would say so and not leave words like "nations" and "families of the earth" up to be interpreted as Gentiles or non-Hebrews.
God is personal. There are countless men and women in Scripture God reveals Himself to and for the most part these persons are named. There is interaction. But for some reason there is nothing in Scripture of a non-Hebrew Gentiles whom God has blessed with covenant. I don't see God piggy-backing Gentiles on Abraham's covenant because there is no mention of Gentiles in the text, and it clearly says Abraham's seed.
If God made covenant with non-Hebrew Gentiles, then there would be a description of the covenant and there would be a man who is named with whom is receiver of such covenant but there is none.

In Scripture the Hebrews lived in Goshen. In Scripture it says that God delivered Hebrews from bondage and still I find no mention of Gentiles being freed. The whole reason why the Hebrews was to be enslaved and controlled was because they began to become the majority in contrast to the Egyptians and this is why they were enslaved and controlled. Non-Hebrew Gentiles - if there were any living among the Hebrews in Goshen - were not a threat to Egypt. But then again Gentiles were not enslaved. It was a Hebrews only policy. And while in bondage God commanded the Hebrews participate in the Passover event and ritual. God commanded the Hebrews to apply the sacrificial blood on their doorframes and the Angel of Death would Passover those in that house. Gentiles did not participate in this for it was given strictly to the Hebrew people and they obeyed. The next day Moses led the Hebrews out of Egypt and into the desert where God made covenant with this people of millions and they built a Tabernacle according to God's instructions. It was God who situated the families of Jacob (or tribes) around the Tabernacle, three to a side. If there were non-Hebrew Gentiles among them they were situated far from the Hebrew encampment. The Pentateuch, or the five books of Moses describes everything one needed to know about the God of Abraham and His dealings with the Hebrew people. God gave the Hebrews His Law to live by. Under the Law of God there was a high priest who did two things: he prayed for the people of God in covenant and offered sacrifices for the people of God in covenant. Scripture says that on Yom Kippur there was a temporary yearly atonement performed that absolved the children of Israel of their sins. Nowhere are Gentiles sprinkled with the blood, only the Hebrews. Nowhere do I read of the high priest leaving the land, travel to the Gentiles and offer sacrifices for their sins.

When Jesus arrived, He came with many titles, one of which is High Priest (Hebrews 3:1.) Under the Law the high priest interceded for the Hebrew people, even going as far as to enter the Holy of Holies of the Tabernacle. Jesus interceded for the Hebrew people by praying for them in John 17 and then offered Himself as sacrifice in John 19.
Jesus said He did not come to destroy the Law but to fulfill it. How does changing the Law lead to its destruction?
Let's take the Ten Commandments which was written on stone by the finger of God Himself. Then He gave the tablets to Moses to later be placed in the Ark of the Covenant. God's Word is written on stone. God is not going to change it. It is eternal as written. But if a man were to attempt to add, or subtract, what was written in the Law to change it he'd have to use a chisel. The person who would try to change the Law using a chisel runs the risk of chipping off a piece of stone he was not intending or even cracking or breaking the stone tablet thus destroying it. It is ruined. No glue, no tape, it is ruined. This is what Jesus meant when He said I did not come to destroy the Law (by trying to chisel-change it), but to fulfill it. It's simple. If the high priest did not pray for non-Hebrew Gentiles nor offer sacrifices for non-Hebrew Gentiles, then when Jesus arrived with the intent to fulfill the Law, then as High Priest neither did He pray for the world of non-Hebrew Gentiles nor offer Himself as sacrifice for their sins, especially when at the last Passover Jesus sitting with twelve Jewish men who represented the twelve tribes of Israel says His body and blood are "given for you", for the Hebrews. At this point, those who claim non-Hebrew Gentiles were atoned at the cross of Jesus Christ are teaching Jesus changed the Law thus destroying it, and this is sin. When we get to the New Covenant prophecy by Jeremiah, He states with whom God is making this New Covenant with and they are identified in his prophecy as the House of Israel (ten northern kingdom tribes), and the House of Judah (two southern kingdom tribes. In John 17:9 Jesus is explicit, He said, "I pray not for the world" and the world is the non-Hebrew Gentiles. If non-Hebrew Gentiles were to be among the atoned, then the time to pray and offer sacrifice for them is right here and now (John 17.)
But Jesus did not do that.

If God wanted to atone non-Hebrew Gentiles and make a covenant with them God would choose out a Gentile man and speak terms to him and we would know this Gentile's name. In fact, as time goes forward there would be a Gentile Bible written of God's dealing with this people, there will be prophets and other important and significant men and women God would carry through the decades and centuries. God would give them His Law and there would be sacrifices ordered as part of worship and fellowship, but there is nothing in Scripture about this. If the high priest entered the Tabernacle and if one Gentile man is atoned, then Jesus would have to fulfill that and name Gentiles as part of those who were to be atoned along with the Hebrews. Now, we get into something called Universalism. WHY would God separate the Hebrews from the rest of the Adamites and give the Hebrews circumcision to set them apart from the rest of the Adamites?

No, I take Scripture as written. I don't add or subtract what is written there. I am very familiar as to God's behavior and the way He does things. If God ever made a covenant with non-Hebrew Gentiles, it will be described in Scripture, not left to obscure misunderstandings of interpretation of words like "nations" and "families of the earth." If God made covenant with non-Hebrew Gentiles, it will be written boldly in Scripture so there be no misunderstanding it or Him. We would know the name of this Gentile the same way God identified many times "Abraham" is the person He was speaking to. If God made a covenant with non-Hebrew Gentiles, such a covenant would have a Bible with Gentile writers called by God and given the ministry of recording God's dealings with these Gentiles through the centuries until we get to the cross. After the cross there would be Gentiles writing a couple of gospels for the Gentile people to read and understand and give God the glory He's due for their salvation. If God was to make a covenant with Gentiles they would be included from the start, they would be given their own lot around the Tabernacle, the high priest would sprinkle them with the blood of the animal sacrifice, they would be included in the New Covenant and Jeremaih would write GENTILES in his prophecy and Jesus would have prayed for the world and there would be no John 17:9.

Being that we have only one Bible and it is a Hebrew Bible and among all the families of the earth God would choose one to exalt this one family ABOVE all the families of the earth, and save this one family to the exclusion of non-Hebrew Gentiles, the only way God could save non-Hebrew Gentiles would be to scatter the Hebrews throughout Gentile lands and through marriage, rape, concubinage, and slavery, the Gentile to be included in any and all three of these Hebrew covenants is to be born of at least ONE Hebrew parent. The children would be mixed Hebrew with Gentile but because God does not lie, that child born to a mixed marriage or otherwise, would have Abraham's blood and DNA in their veins and in this they would be heirs according to the promise (Gal. 3:28-29.)

Jesus came to save the people He's made covenant with and that family is Abraham's family. But that child cannot be born from the seed of Ishmael or Esau, and all the others who are not descendant of Jacob. If so, that child would be blessed but not in covenant because Jacob inherited the covenant and later his sons and their sons and their sons ad infinitum. I believe God did plan to include Gentiles because I see His scatter a covenant people among Gentiles knowing that His covenant people would mix it up with them and have mixed heritage children. He knew. He planned it that way.

I believe in the five solas. I also believe as today's Jews do and that is God made covenant with Abram the Hebrew and Abram's Hebrew seed and that only through Christ without any action on the part of the saved to salvation is purely the grace of God and He has extended it to one people. Abraham's people. And if there are any mixed heritage children born to a Jew-Gentile patents, then by virtue of God's promise to Abraham and Abraham's blood and DNA in that child, they are in covenant with God and heirs according to the promise. The descendants of Ham and Japheth are arsed out. Unless, of course, they get with a Hebrew.

23 Thus saith the LORD of hosts;
In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations,
Even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying,
We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you.
Zechariah 8:23.

That's the only way non-Hebrew Gentiles are saved. And if God did make a covenant with non-Hebrew Gentiles we would know his name and verse 23 above would be written differently.

Salvation is OF THE LORD.
Salvation is OF THE JEWS.
But nowhere in Scripture does it say salvation is of the Gentiles.
Universalism is NOT taught in God's Word the Bible.

Thanks for sharing your church experience.

So you were under a female pastor that should of been the first red flag that goes against the NT teaching on a woman not having authority over a man spiritually.

 

[Red Baker]

So you were under a female pastor that should of been the first red flag that goes against the NT teaching on a woman not having authority over a man spiritually.

Assemblies of God have women preachers, and I knew that as soon as he said that's where he went for a few years.

 

[FreeInChrist]

Assemblies of God have women preachers, and I knew that as soon as he said that's where he went for a few years.

So do the Methodists... from back in the 70s because I worked with a fellow who was and had one. He was proud of the fact she came from England?

 

[David Koberstein]

So do the Methodists... from back in the 70s because I worked with a fellow who was and had one. He was proud of the fact she came from England?

We also have female Rabbi's. They are a few and far between.

 

[jeremiah1five]

@jeremiah1five

Have you done a DNA test? What if you did and the results were no Jewish blood in your family genealogy? Would that undermine your faith in Christ? I in all sincerity trust that it would not, but not so sure, since you have been brainwashed in believing that no Gentiles have any hope of eternal life only because they lack Jewish blood flowing in their veins. I did a DNA test, not because I wanted to know if I had Jewish blood, but just out of curiosity, no more. I have zero Jewish blood, mostly my forefathers on my father's side came from Germany ~ I'm 45% German; Mother's folks came from England. Besides, genealogy is an endless search, that leads to no where for the most part. Folks desire to find someone important in their bloodline when the truth is, we all are sinners and all of our history is recorded for us to see in Romans 3:10-18.....a very sad commentary indeed of every single person born of flesh and blood.

1st Timothy 1:4​

“Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.”

Nope. It would not "undermine my faith in Jesus." It would undermine my holding to the fact that only Hebrews of the seed of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are saved. There are many places in the New Testament where it is said that only those people in covenant with God through the Mosaic Law are saved. In the verse below Saul makes clear who are saved by Christ:

4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. Galatians 4:4–5.

If non-Hebrew Gentiles were among the saved and born again then Saul would have added them by name in the verse above. But He didn't and I take Scripture as written.

Saul's words to Timothy in 1 Timothy 1:4 refer to fables and not to fact. They refer to questions of genealogies that in and of themselves garner more questions instead of answering them. If we take Saul's words and apply it to factual answers to honest questions, then we must do away with the genealogies written in Matthew and Luke which record the factual family lines of Jesus the man through Mary, His Mother, and of Matthew and the genealogy of Joseph.

Jeremiah, you sir, are being dishonest with God's word, shame on you. Yes, John and Peter and the rest of the apostles were sent to the Jews, and Paul to the Gentiles. According to Galatians 2:9; so, when John wrote his epistles to the Jews, he was reminding them that the gospel and its spiritual blessings were not limited to the Jews ONLY but to whosoever, meaning be they Jews or Gentiles. if they believe that Jesus is the Christ, then they are born of God, for without the new birth it is impossible for a Jew or a Gentile to believe in their flesh, one must firs be born of God ~ according to the verse I quote to you from 1st John 5:1. So, when John wrote:

1st John 2:2​

“And he is the propitiation for our sins: (JEWS) and not for ours (JEWS) only, but also for the sins of the whole world.”

Meaning that Jesus' death was not for the Jews only, but it including God's elect from every nations under heaven ~ the whole world is not all without exception, but all "without distinction" which you are laboring to make for the Jews only.

What do you do when you come across Scripture that opposes what you believe in? Most scrap those Scriptures in order to maintain the theologies they personally believe in. Not me. I come across Scripture that challenges my holding and previous thoughts of what Scripture teaches. Like the passage by Peter that the angels that sinned are locked up and awaiting judgment (2 Peter 2:4.) But many disregard what Peter says in order to hold to their beliefs that Satan, Lucifer, and the devil are still loose upon our planet. Peter's words should put a stop to one's personal belief that the angels are loose upon the planet and was even the one who was in the desert with Jesus when He was being tempted. By holding to this belief the result is that according to this holding there are not ONE way of being tempted, but two ways. And Scripture doesn't teach this. There is only ONE wzy when we are tempted. Temptation comes from within, not from without.

14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. James 1:14.

Jesus' temptations, as with all men, comes from within.

Revelation 7:9​

“After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;”

Jeremiah have never read so much as these words:

Here is a list of "nations" or descendants of Abraham:

Ishmael: Born to Hagar (Genesis 16). He became the father of twelve princes, who were heads of their own tribes (Genesis 25:12-16).

Nebaioth
Kedar
Adbeel
Mibsam
Mishma
Dumah
Massa
Hadad
Tema.

Isaac: Born to Sarah (Genesis 21). He became a patriarch himself and the covenant line passed through him.

Esau: Son of Isaac. He became the father of the Edomites and had prominent descendants (Genesis 36).
Jacob (later named Israel): Son of Isaac. He is the most significant head of a family line, as he became the father of the twelve sons who formed the Twelve Tribes of Israel. These twelve sons each became a head of a tribe:

Then there are these nations born of Abraham through Isaac and Jacob::

Reuben
Simeon
Levi
Judah
Dan
Naphtali
Gad
Asher
Issachar
Zebulun
Joseph (whose two sons, Ephraim and Manasseh, received tribal inheritances)
Benjamin.

Sons of Keturah: After Sarah's death, Abraham married Keturah and had six more sons (Genesis 25:1-4). These sons also became progenitors of various tribes:

Zimran
Jokshan (father of Sheba and Dedan)
Medan
Midian (ancestor of the Midianites, a significant group in later biblical narratives)
Ishbak
Shuah

While all these individuals were born of Abraham and became heads of their respective families or tribes, the narrative in scripture primarily focuses on the line of Isaac and his grandson Jacob (Israel) as the chosen lineage through whom God's covenant promises would be fulfilled. These are the "nations" and "kings" God said were "all the families of the earth that shall be blessed", merely by being a descendant of Abraham.

Romans 10:19-21​

“But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you. But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me. But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people."

You just close your eyes to such scriptures and they are literally hundreds of them. Shame on her, Jeremiah. God has been visiting the Gentiles nations for around two thousand years, and it is coming to an end very soon. The Lord is taking out of them a people for his name sake, while Abraham's natural children are still in darkness overall considered. The Gentiles nations have done just what the Jews did before Christ.... they have forsaken God, and turned unto the idols of this world, and judgement is soon coming down on them very soon as it did on the Jews and as for around two thousand years or so as a whole, not all.

He is not my natural father, only spiritually through Christ, TO WHOM are the promises to and all who are IN Christ, be they Jews or Gentiles.

Enough for now.

And you close your eyes to these passages of the Holy Writ. You pass over them so that you can keep your present theologies.

4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; 2 Peter 2:3–4.

These angels that sinned are locked up awaiting judgment. This means man is all alone on the planet with a sin nature that God in His Wisdom is dealing with. How about this passage that has Saul telling who is being saved:

4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. Galatians 4:4–5.

If non-Hebrew Gentiles are included in the Lord's redemption surely Saul would list them here.
And this. At the end of days after Jesus returns, defeats His enemies and Israel's enemies, who are the Gentile nations of the world, He sits on His throne and the promise of land to Abraham and his seed is fulfilled and all the twelve tribes of Israel are finally occupying the land promised to Abraham and his seed, Gentiles that survive Armageddon live outside the Promised Land everywhere on earth. But the children of Israel finally get their land and all non-Hebrew Gentiles are deported out of their land.

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
Revelation 20:7–9.

All the non-Hebrew Gentiles that survive the Great War among the nations are given the "four quarters of the earth" to live in. The Jews are living in the land God promised them, but the Gentiles that surround Israel attack Israel and in response God sends fire from heaven and devours them all leaving only the Jews to occupy the earth. And why not? It is prophesied:

11 But the meek shall inherit the earth;
And shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.
Ps 37:11.

The Promised Land has just been extended to the Jews occupying the whole earth.
It is prophesied. God promised it. And no one has the power to stop Him.
Earth is the Promised Land of the seed of Abraham who are inheritors of the promise (Gal. 3:28-29.)
Non-Hebrew Gentiles?
Consumed by fire from heaven.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Thanks for sharing your church experience.

So you were under a female pastor that should of been the first red flag that goes against the NT teaching on a woman not having authority over a man spiritually.

Not so. According to Scripture God has ordained two orders. The natural order and the spiritual order.

The Natural Order:

2 Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you. 3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God. 1 Corinthians 11:2–3.

It is a vertical order:
God
Christ
Man
Woman.

The spiritual Order:

27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. Galatians 3:27–28.

The Spiritual Order is:
Christ
Everyone else in the body of Christ.

By naming Christ before Jesus Saul is saying that in spiritual matters Christ is the Head and then it goes horizontal - Everyone else in the body of Christ. In the body of Christ, we are all equal.

Christ is the English for the Greek "Christos." Christos transliterated into Hebrew is "Messias" which means "Anointed." It can refer to oil and/or the Spirit. Thus, in spiritual matter Christ is Head and everyone else in the body of Christ is equal. The offices of apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor, and teacher are spiritual offices. And according to Saul who says that in Christ there is neither male or female which in the natural order it is different and goes vertical. Thus, a woman can be called to a spiritual office and not only prophetesses. She can be an apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor, and teacher.
Magdalena, who reported to the disciples Jesus had risen operated as an evangelist for she heralded a message from the angels to the disciples. But I also maintain that a woman cannot be an elder for she cannot be the husband of one wife.

In Christ we are all equal. Let's not confuse the order set by God. The teaching that a woman cannot teach a man is destructive to the body of Christ for it opposes the order of authority set by God. There is a natural order, and there is a spiritual order. These are ordained by God. To bring the natural order into the spiritual order and say a woman cannot teach a man is wrong. Each order has its own authority. And in spiritual matters we are to submit to each other for Christ can use anyone He wants in spiritual matters. And if the woman pastor is married and returns home, she then falls into the natural order. And it is not unthinkable that is the natural order God may use the woman in a spiritual matter. But she must use her authority in wisdom.
And Christ is the personification of Wisdom.

 

[Red Baker]

@jeremiah1five

Like the passage by Peter that the angels that sinned are locked up and awaiting judgment (2 Peter 2:4.) But many disregard what Peter says in order to hold to their beliefs that Satan, Lucifer, and the devil are still loose upon our planet. Peter's words should put a stop to one's personal belief that the angels are loose upon the planet and was even the one who was in the desert with Jesus when He was being tempted. By holding to this belief the result is that according to this holding there are not ONE way of being tempted, but two ways. And Scripture doesn't teach this.

Well, Jeremiah, you do not understand what Peter is saying. So, let us see if indeed you practice what you preach ~ you said:

What do you do when you come across Scripture that opposes what you believe in? Most scrap those Scriptures in order to maintain the theologies they personally believe in. Not me. I come across Scripture that challenges my holding and previous thoughts of what Scripture teaches.

Highlighted area was done by me for discussion.

2nd Peter 2:4

"For if God spared not the angles that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto the judgement."

"For if God spared not the angels that sinned"~By whom are meant the devil and his angels; who are spirits created by God and as such were good; their first estate which they left was pure and holy, as well as high and honourable; they, were at first in the truth, though they abode not in it; they were once among the morning stars and sons of God, and were angels of light; their numbers are many, and therefore are here expressed in the plural number, "angels", though it cannot be said how large, a number that cannot be counted.

"God spared not"~ Notwithstanding the dignity and excellency of their nature, in strict justice, and awful severity, without any mercy, inflicted due punishment on them; wherefore it cannot be thought that false teachers, who, as they, abide not in the truth, but deny and oppose it, should escape the vengeance of God, for they will not.

"but cast them down to hell"~In what sense are we to understand the word hell as used by Peter? It cannot be understood as the lake of fire, for that is after the judgment~for which they are reserved for...which is to come, as is evident by even the angles themselves:

Matthew 8:29

"And behold they cried out saying, What have we to do with thee Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?"

They know that there is a day appointed for them to be judge and then cast into the lake of fire, or into the deep, as used by Mark and Luke.

Also, the world is full of evil spirits as is evident by many scriptures in the NT, and in the book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ. Hell in this scripture is explain to us by Peter as he said these words:

"and delivered them into chains of darkness"~When they left their first estate, by sinning, God Almighty delivered them into chains of darkness~which means their sins left them under the guilt of sin, which is the power of darkness, and in black despair; shutting them up in unbelief, impenitence, and hardness of mind; being holden with the cords of their sins, and in the most dreadful state of bondage and captivity to their lusts, in just judgment on them; and in the most miserable and uncomfortable condition, being driven from the realms of light, deprived of the face and presence of God, in the utmost horror and trembling, and fearful looking for of judgment, and fiery indignation to consume them; and in utter darkness, without the least glimmering of light, joy, peace, and comfort; and where there is nothing but weeping, wailing, and gnashing of teeth; and being also under the restraints of the power and providence of God, and not able to stir or move, or do anything without divine permission; and being likewise, by the everlasting, unalterable, and inscrutable purposes and decrees of God, appointed to everlasting wrath and destruction; by which they are consigned and bound over to it, and held fast, that they cannot escape it! They are there~

"to be reserved unto judgment"~And judge they shall be! By Jesus Christ and his saints. This is the prison of hell in which they are now suffering under, there waiting for that great day of the wrath of Almighty God. This hell, they will never escape from, they are forever under this chains of darkness and deception in which they are now living under. Their final abode will be destruction in the lake of fire and brimstone.

By holding to this belief the result is that according to this holding there are not ONE way of being tempted, but two ways. And Scripture doesn't teach this. There is only ONE wzy when we are tempted. Temptation comes from within, not from without.

14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. James 1:14.

Temptation for the most part does come from our sinful nature, but that does not mean, saints do not have an enemy named Satan, BOTH are true ~ evil spirits still dwells in folks void of God's Spirit, they have not gone anywhere and may be more active today then ever before, because they know their time to be destroy is very near.

Jesus' temptations, as with all men, comes from within.

You are speaking blasphemy! Jesus did not have a sinful nature as all men have born through Adam's posterity. There was no sinful lust in his heart, impossible ~ you need to repent of this.

So, you do not believe in evil fallen angels actively working in this present time? Peter's judgement happened to them before Adam's sinned, how much before is hidden from us, but, most likely the same day, since God alone is immutable. They were very active in Paul's day.

1st Thessalonians 2:18​

“Wherefore we would have come unto you, even I Paul, once and again; but Satan hindered us.”

Revelation 20:7​

“And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,”

We are living at the end of this little season where Satan is more active than ever before!

Revelation 12:12​

“Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.”

He has rocked you to sleep, with your overly obsession with Jews only salvation theory!

 

[FreeInChrist]

We also have female Rabbi's. They are a few and far between.

I knew that. Wont be too long, I suspect, when there will be female priests. I just pray there never is a female pope.

 

[civic]

Not so. According to Scripture God has ordained two orders. The natural order and the spiritual order.

The Natural Order:

2 Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you. 3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God. 1 Corinthians 11:2–3.

It is a vertical order:
God
Christ
Man
Woman.

The spiritual Order:

27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. Galatians 3:27–28.

The Spiritual Order is:
Christ
Everyone else in the body of Christ.

By naming Christ before Jesus Saul is saying that in spiritual matters Christ is the Head and then it goes horizontal - Everyone else in the body of Christ. In the body of Christ, we are all equal.

Christ is the English for the Greek "Christos." Christos transliterated into Hebrew is "Messias" which means "Anointed." It can refer to oil and/or the Spirit. Thus, in spiritual matter Christ is Head and everyone else in the body of Christ is equal. The offices of apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor, and teacher are spiritual offices. And according to Saul who says that in Christ there is neither male or female which in the natural order it is different and goes vertical. Thus, a woman can be called to a spiritual office and not only prophetesses. She can be an apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor, and teacher.
Magdalena, who reported to the disciples Jesus had risen operated as an evangelist for she heralded a message from the angels to the disciples. But I also maintain that a woman cannot be an elder for she cannot be the husband of one wife.

In Christ we are all equal. Let's not confuse the order set by God. The teaching that a woman cannot teach a man is destructive to the body of Christ for it opposes the order of authority set by God. There is a natural order, and there is a spiritual order. These are ordained by God. To bring the natural order into the spiritual order and say a woman cannot teach a man is wrong. Each order has its own authority. And in spiritual matters we are to submit to each other for Christ can use anyone He wants in spiritual matters. And if the woman pastor is married and returns home, she then falls into the natural order. And it is not unthinkable that is the natural order God may use the woman in a spiritual matter. But she must use her authority in wisdom.
And Christ is the personification of Wisdom.

I noticed you have your personal opinion and no scripture. I have scripture for the authority of men over women in both the home( marriage ) and the church- the two institutions of God. We are talking about roles/offices in the church.The family is the same in how God designed it with men having the role as head over the family. The church reflects the same types of roles giving men the headship/oversight in the church and family.

1 Tim 2:11-15
11 A woman must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness. 12 But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet. 13 For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve. 14 And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression. 15 But women will be preserved through the bearing of children if they continue in faith and love and sanctity with self-restraint.

The N.T. outline for teachers/elders in the church for leadership.

Acts 14:23
When they had appointed elders for them in every church, having prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord in whom they had believed.

1 Tim 3:1-7
It is a trustworthy statement: if any man aspires to the office of overseer, it is a fine work he desires to do. 2 An overseer, then, must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, temperate, prudent, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, 3 not addicted to wine or pugnacious, but gentle, peaceable, free from the love of money. 4 He must be one who manages his own household well, keeping his children under control with all dignity 5 (but if a man does not know how to manage his own household, how will he take care of the church of God?), 6 and not a new convert, so that he will not become conceited and fall into the condemnation incurred by the devil. 7 And he must have a good reputation with those outside the church, so that he will not fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.

Titus 1:5-9
5 The reason I left you in Crete was that you might straighten out what was left unfinished and appoint elders in every town, as I directed you. 6 An elder must be blameless, the husband of but one wife, a man whose children believe and are not open to the charge of being wild and disobedient. 7 Since an overseer is entrusted with God's work, he must be blameless — not overbearing, not quick-tempered, not given to drunkenness, not violent, not pursuing dishonest gain. 8 Rather he must be hospitable, one who loves what is good, who is self-controlled, upright, holy and disciplined. 9 He must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it.


1 Tim 2:11-15
11 A woman must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness. 12 But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet. 13 For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve. 14 And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression. 15 But women will be preserved through the bearing of children if they continue in faith and love and sanctity with self-restraint.

1 Tim 5:17-19
Let the elders who rule well be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who work hard at preaching and teaching. 18 For the Scripture says, "You shall not muzzle the ox while he is threshing," and "The laborer is worthy of his wages." 19 Do not receive an accusation against an elder except on the basis of two or three witnesses.

1 Peter 3:1-6
In the same way, you wives, be submissive to your own husbands so that even if any of them are disobedient to the word, they may be won without a word by the behavior of their wives, 2 as they observe your chaste and respectful behavior. 3 Your adornment must not be merely external — braiding the hair, and wearing gold jewelry, or putting on dresses; 4 but let it be the hidden person of the heart, with the imperishable quality of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is precious in the sight of God. 5 For in this way in former times the holy women also, who hoped in God, used to adorn themselves, being submissive to their own husbands; 6 just as Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling him lord, and you have become her children if you do what is right without being frightened by any fear.

1 Peter 5:1-5
Therefore, I exhort the elders among you, as your fellow elder and witness of the sufferings of Christ, and a partaker also of the glory that is to be revealed, 2 shepherd the flock of God among you, exercising oversight not under compulsion, but voluntarily, according to the will of God; and not for sordid gain, but with eagerness; 3 nor yet as lording it over those allotted to your charge, but proving to be examples to the flock. 4 And when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the unfading crown of glory. 5 You younger men, likewise, be subject to your elders; and all of you, clothe yourselves with humility toward one another, for God is opposed to the proud, but gives grace to the humble

James 5:14-15
Is any one of you sick? He should call the elders of the church to pray over him and anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord. 15 And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise him up.

 

[FreeInChrist]

I believe in the five solas. I also believe as today's Jews do and that is God made covenant with Abram the Hebrew and Abram's Hebrew seed and that only through Christ without any action on the part of the saved to salvation is purely the grace of God and He has extended it to one people. Abraham's people. And if there are any mixed heritage children born to a Jew-Gentile patents, then by virtue of God's promise to Abraham and Abraham's blood and DNA in that child, they are in covenant with God and heirs according to the promise. The descendants of Ham and Japheth are arsed out. Unless, of course, they get with a Hebrew.

23 Thus saith the LORD of hosts;
In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations,
Even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying,
We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you.
Zechariah 8:23.

That's the only way non-Hebrew Gentiles are saved. And if God did make a covenant with non-Hebrew Gentiles we would know his name and verse 23 above would be written differently.

Salvation is OF THE LORD.
Salvation is OF THE JEWS.
But nowhere in Scripture does it say salvation is of the Gentiles.
Universalism is NOT taught in God's Word the Bible.

@jeremiah1five ,

Sigh, SMH, I have asked you variations of this before but when you say this

Salvation is OF THE LORD.
Salvation is OF THE JEWS.
But nowhere in Scripture does it say salvation is of the Gentiles.
Universalism is NOT taught in God's Word the Bible.

YOU lose all credibility of your personal beliefs and interpretations because you do not seem to understand what it is that you are reading.
FOR THE LAST TIME, MAYBE What does the last verse copied below mean..... AND why? (Romans 11)
1 I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

2 God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel?

3 “Lord, they have killed Your prophets, they have torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they are seeking my life.”

4 But what is the divine response to him? “I have kept for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.”

5 In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God’s gracious choice.

6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.

7 What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened;

8 just as it is written,

“God gave them a spirit of stupor,
Eyes to see not and ears to hear not,
Down to this very day.”

9 And David says,

“Let their table become a snare and a trap,
And a stumbling block and a retribution to them.

10 “Let their eyes be darkened to see not,
And bend their backs forever.”

11 I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous.
I am certain you do not like Paul because Paul was the apostle to the Gentiles.....
But no longer can you claim " But nowhere in Scripture does it say salvation is of the Gentiles." It is right in front of your eyes.

And if you say it does not say what it says, then explain why it is there.

 

[jeremiah1five]

@jeremiah1five

Well, Jeremiah, you do not understand what Peter is saying. So, let us see if indeed you practice what you preach ~ you said:

Highlighted area was done by me for discussion.

2nd Peter 2:4

"For if God spared not the angles that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto the judgement."

"For if God spared not the angels that sinned"~By whom are meant the devil and his angels; who are spirits created by God and as such were good; their first estate which they left was pure and holy, as well as high and honourable; they, were at first in the truth, though they abode not in it; they were once among the morning stars and sons of God, and were angels of light; their numbers are many, and therefore are here expressed in the plural number, "angels", though it cannot be said how large, a number that cannot be counted.

"God spared not"~ Notwithstanding the dignity and excellency of their nature, in strict justice, and awful severity, without any mercy, inflicted due punishment on them; wherefore it cannot be thought that false teachers, who, as they, abide not in the truth, but deny and oppose it, should escape the vengeance of God, for they will not.

"but cast them down to hell"~In what sense are we to understand the word hell as used by Peter? It cannot be understood as the lake of fire, for that is after the judgment~for which they are reserved for...which is to come, as is evident by even the angles themselves:

Matthew 8:29

"And behold they cried out saying, What have we to do with thee Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?"

They know that there is a day appointed for them to be judge and then cast into the lake of fire, or into the deep, as used by Mark and Luke.

Also, the world is full of evil spirits as is evident by many scriptures in the NT, and in the book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ. Hell in this scripture is explain to us by Peter as he said these words:

"and delivered them into chains of darkness"~When they left their first estate, by sinning, God Almighty delivered them into chains of darkness~which means their sins left them under the guilt of sin, which is the power of darkness, and in black despair; shutting them up in unbelief, impenitence, and hardness of mind; being holden with the cords of their sins, and in the most dreadful state of bondage and captivity to their lusts, in just judgment on them; and in the most miserable and uncomfortable condition, being driven from the realms of light, deprived of the face and presence of God, in the utmost horror and trembling, and fearful looking for of judgment, and fiery indignation to consume them; and in utter darkness, without the least glimmering of light, joy, peace, and comfort; and where there is nothing but weeping, wailing, and gnashing of teeth; and being also under the restraints of the power and providence of God, and not able to stir or move, or do anything without divine permission; and being likewise, by the everlasting, unalterable, and inscrutable purposes and decrees of God, appointed to everlasting wrath and destruction; by which they are consigned and bound over to it, and held fast, that they cannot escape it! They are there~

"to be reserved unto judgment"~And judge they shall be! By Jesus Christ and his saints. This is the prison of hell in which they are now suffering under, there waiting for that great day of the wrath of Almighty God. This hell, they will never escape from, they are forever under this chains of darkness and deception in which they are now living under. Their final abode will be destruction in the lake of fire and brimstone.

Temptation for the most part does come from our sinful nature, but that does not mean, saints do not have an enemy named Satan, BOTH are true ~ evil spirits still dwells in folks void of God's Spirit, they have not gone anywhere and may be more active today then ever before, because they know their time to be destroy is very near.

You are speaking blasphemy! Jesus did not have a sinful nature as all men have born through Adam's posterity. There was no sinful lust in his heart, impossible ~ you need to repent of this.

So, you do not believe in evil fallen angels actively working in this present time? Peter's judgement happened to them before Adam's sinned, how much before is hidden from us, but, most likely the same day, since God alone is immutable. They were very active in Paul's day.

1st Thessalonians 2:18​

“Wherefore we would have come unto you, even I Paul, once and again; but Satan hindered us.”

Revelation 20:7​

“And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,”

We are living at the end of this little season where Satan is more active than ever before!

Revelation 12:12​

“Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.”

He has rocked you to sleep, with your overly obsession with Jews only salvation theory!

I rest my case.
Peter and Jude and Isaiah are clear.

God restricted the angels that sinned and they are all awaiting judgment.

You choose to disregard these godly men for your own interpretation.