That's because you haven't opened your eyes.
No.
Then your denial is worse than I thought.
The Water Baptism of 1 Corinthians 12:13
- Thread starter Seabass
- Start date
That's because you haven't opened your eyes.
No.
Then your denial is worse than I thought.
dwight92070
Active Member
Actually no, the one baptism of Ephesians 4:5, is 1 Corinthians 12:13, where the Holy Spirit baptizes us into one body, the body of Christ. There's no water in this baptism, and no human hands are needed to perform this baptism - it is the Holy Spirit who does the work. This is the work of God called salvation.
In fact, look at the previous verse, 1 Cor. 12:12 "For even as the body is one and yet has many members, and all the members of the body, though they are many, are one body, so also is Christ." So we see Paul's topic here is NOT baptism in water, but the body of Christ.
It is also described in Colossians 2:11 as "a circumcision made WITHOUT HANDS, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ; ..." the body of the flesh mentioned here is obviously NOT our physical body, but is a reference to our sin nature, the "old man" Paul speaks of in Col. 3:9. Peter also speaks of removing this old man in 1 Peter 3:21, where he says that water baptism is NOT "the removal of dirt from the flesh", again speaking of our sin nature. Obviously, being immersed in water cannot and does not remove either our sins or our sinful nature.
Then after we've been baptized into the body of Christ - saved - we can be baptized in water WITH HUMAN HANDS, i.e. someone else, another believer, performs this baptism. That person baptizes us into water, NOT into the body of Christ - we're ALREADY IN THE BODY OF CHRIST. Col. 2:12 speaks of this water baptism, notice, after one has received the circumcision of Christ.
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Doug Brents
Active Member
That understanding defies John 3:5, 1 Pet 3:21, Acts 8:36, Matt 28:19 and others. The one baptism must have water.
If the passages I listed above, and many others, were not part of Scripture I could agree with you. But they are Scripture, and they refute your claim. But when you read 1 Pet 3:21, you see that the Holy Spirit is the one doing the work during water immersion (baptism), which fulfills both 1 Cor 12:13 and John 3:5.
You are right, his topic is not baptism in anything, but is an explanation of how the body of Christ mimics our physical bodies (multiple organs, tissues, and cells making up one unit; which is the same as the multiple individuals and congregations that make up the one Church). And it is the Holy Spirit who binds us together and makes us one, bringing us into the family of God (the one body) through baptism in water (John 3:5, Gal 3:26-27). IF you exclude water you must also ignore many Scripture passages that link salvation and water immersion.
Very true. And when does Paul say that this occurs? DURING baptism (Col 2:12).
Peter is saying that the "removal of dirt from the flesh" is not a physical dirt (just as Paul's circumcision without hands is not a physical circumcision); it is a spiritual removal of sin. But again, when does this removal occur? DURING baptism.
Correct, it does not. The Holy Spirit does it DURING water baptism.
Col 2:12 says that the circumcision without hands happens IN/DURING baptism (in water). It is not a separate act. And this agrees with 1 Pet 3:21, and Rom 6:-7, and John 3:5, and Acts 22:16, and Acts 8:36, and Eph 5:26-27, and Gal 3:26-27, and others.
dwight92070
Active Member
Wrong. If salvation occurs during baptism, then Colossians 2:11 could not say "without hands", because water baptism is done only "with hands".
The removal of sins and our sin nature occurs when Christ circumcises us "without hands". When does that occur? When we put our faith in Christ, not at any other time - especially not when some ceremony is performed. Our faith cannot be in a ceremony or even in something that we think will only happen during that ceremony. If that is what we think, then our faith is in the ceremony itself, not in anything else. It must be in Jesus alone. If we think that we cannot be saved, unless we are part of a ceremony, then we are exactly the same as the Judaizers, who thought that they could not be saved without the ceremony of physical circumcision. They were greatly mistaken. Even so today, if we think that we cannot be saved without the physical ceremony of water baptism, we are greatly mistaken.
The removal of sins and our sin nature occurs when Christ circumcises us "without hands". When does that occur? When we put our faith in Christ, not at any other time - especially not when some ceremony is performed. Our faith cannot be in a ceremony or even in something that we think will only happen during that ceremony. If that is what we think, then our faith is in the ceremony itself, not in anything else. It must be in Jesus alone. If we think that we cannot be saved, unless we are part of a ceremony, then we are exactly the same as the Judaizers, who thought that they could not be saved without the ceremony of physical circumcision. They were greatly mistaken. Even so today, if we think that we cannot be saved without the physical ceremony of water baptism, we are greatly mistaken.
Doug Brents
Active Member
I have never said that water baptism removes sins. It is DURING water baptism that the Holy Spirit, without hands, removes sins. The water is nothing, and the hands of the baptizer are nothing, but the faith evidenced by the obedient surrender of baptism is everything. So it still requires both water and the Spirit.
DURING water baptism. "... in baptism" (Col 2:12), "... through baptism" (Rom 6:4), etc.
Was Israel's faith in marching, or in the God who commanded them to march when they took Jericho?
Was the widow's faith in pouring oil, or in the God who, through the prophet, commanded her to pour oil?
Was the widow's faith in her last cake of bread, or in the God who, through the prophet, commanded her to give her last cake to him?
Was Naaman's faith in the water of Jordan, or in the God who, through the prophet, commanded him to dip?
Was Israel's faith in the bronze snake on the pole, or in the God who commanded Moses to lift the snake up so the people could look on it an be healed?
And I could go on and on and on. Faith is not in the thing that we do, but in the one who commanded that we do it.
Very different circumstances. The Judaizers were trying to make Gentiles continue to keep parts of the OT Law of Moses. Baptism into Christ is not an OT command. It is a condition that Jesus established for the reception of His gift of salvation for the New Covenant.
dwight92070
Active Member
v
I have never said that water baptism removes sins. It is DURING water baptism that the Holy Spirit, without hands, removes sins.
Of course you have. You have basically told the Holy Spirit that only during our being baptized in water, can He remove our sins. You could also say, then, that the Holy Spirit cannot remove our sins at any other time than our water baptism. Aside from the fact that the Bible nowhere says that, you also imply that YOU can control (by when you choose to be baptized) when the Holy Spirit can remove your sin and when He cannot. The problem there is, of course, that we cannot control the Holy Spirit. Just as "the wind blows WHERE it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; ..." John 3:8, so YOU cannot tell the Holy Spirit that only during water baptism, can He remove sins.
That didn't work with Cornelius and his family, did it? The Holy Spirit decided exactly when He would remove their sins - and He didn't wait for them to be baptized to do it. What He DID wait for was their FAITH. God alone see our hearts. When the Holy Spirit saw the faith of Cornelius and his family - BAM! The Holy Spirit fell on them - BEFORE they were baptized.
Obedience is "seen" in potential believers in their faith, not in their water baptism - and only God can see it.
Paul says that in Romans 1:5 "through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about THE OBEDIENCE OF FAITH among all the Gentiles.
To be saved, one must obey and put their faith in Jesus - not think that when they submit to baptism, they will be saved.
Jesus commanded water baptism, but not for the purpose of getting saved, but for a sign that we are already saved.
I have never said that water baptism removes sins. It is DURING water baptism that the Holy Spirit, without hands, removes sins.
Of course you have. You have basically told the Holy Spirit that only during our being baptized in water, can He remove our sins. You could also say, then, that the Holy Spirit cannot remove our sins at any other time than our water baptism. Aside from the fact that the Bible nowhere says that, you also imply that YOU can control (by when you choose to be baptized) when the Holy Spirit can remove your sin and when He cannot. The problem there is, of course, that we cannot control the Holy Spirit. Just as "the wind blows WHERE it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; ..." John 3:8, so YOU cannot tell the Holy Spirit that only during water baptism, can He remove sins.
That didn't work with Cornelius and his family, did it? The Holy Spirit decided exactly when He would remove their sins - and He didn't wait for them to be baptized to do it. What He DID wait for was their FAITH. God alone see our hearts. When the Holy Spirit saw the faith of Cornelius and his family - BAM! The Holy Spirit fell on them - BEFORE they were baptized.
Obedience is "seen" in potential believers in their faith, not in their water baptism - and only God can see it.
Paul says that in Romans 1:5 "through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about THE OBEDIENCE OF FAITH among all the Gentiles.
To be saved, one must obey and put their faith in Jesus - not think that when they submit to baptism, they will be saved.
Jesus commanded water baptism, but not for the purpose of getting saved, but for a sign that we are already saved.
Doug Brents
Active Member
LOL "I"? told the Holy Spirit what He can and can't do? ROTFLMBO
Oh, how powerful and mighty you must think I am. I am flattered by your praise, but frightened by how small you must think the Holy Spirit is.
SMH Dwight, I do not command the Holy Spirit. I teach what God has told us about what He does and does not do. I have not restricted the Holy Spirit; He has restricted Himself as to when He does and does not save someone.
But He can tell us when He will and won't remove sin. God could have parted the Red Sea at any time, but He chose to do so when Moses raised his staff over the Sea. God could have given the Israelite army total domination over the Amalekites, but He chose to only give them domination as long as Moses' staff was raised. God could have places a thirty pound block of gold at the widow's feet, but He chose to only give her the money to redeem her son when she poured out oil, and then she had to go sell the oil to get the money. You see? It is not man who limits what God can do, but God who does His great things through what we do in faith.
What of the Holy Spirit did they receive before they were baptized? It says nothing AT ALL about their sins being forgiven. It says that they received the gift of tongues and of praise. This is the same gift the disciples received on Pentecost in the upper room. This has NOTHING to do with forgiveness or salvation. It is a sign to the ones listening that the message being brought (either the one they are about to speak, or the one they just heard) is truth.
Faith is NOT a mental only concept. Faith is NOT an internal, invisible idea. Faith is EVIDENCE; it is SUBSTANCE; it is what can be seen and heard and felt that shows what cannot be seen and heard and felt. If if I cannot see/feel/hear your faith, then your faith doesn't really exist. Water baptism is an act of faith that is commanded by God as a requirement for receiving His forgiveness and salvation. This is the same kind of action that was required of the Israelites to be cured of snake bites. If they looked at the bronze serpent on the staff then they were healed. But if they didn't look at it then they died. But wait, what if they couldn't see the staff from where they were? If they didn't look at it then they died, period. If we don't receive baptism then we remain condemned, period.
Yes, faith is obedience to the one who you would have as your Lord. If Jesus is your Lord, then you must obey what He commands. He is the one who said that you cannot enter the Kingdom of God without being reborn of both water and the Spirit. You say He was mistaken, that it only requires the Spirit, and "water" really means amniotic fluid, or is a reference to the Holy Spirit (why would He mention the Spirit twice by different terms?). But neither of those make any sense. The ONLY reasonable understanding of what Jesus is saying is that the water is a reference to baptism.
He did indeed command water baptism, and as is made very clear by Him (John 3:5) and His Apostles (Rom 6:1-7, Col 2:11-14, 1 Pet 3:21, etc.) water baptism is the act of faith during which salvation is received.
dwight92070
Active Member
Acts 20:20-21 " ... how I did not shrink from declaring to you ANYTHING THAT WAS PROFITABLE, and teaching you publicly and from house to house,
solemnly testifying to both Jews and Greeks OF REPENTANCE TOWARD GOD AND FAITH IN OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST."
Is teaching getting baptized in order to be saved profitable? If it's true, of course it is.
But obviously Paul didn't think that that was true. Rather, what did he teach?
"Repentance toward God and faith in our Lord Jesus Christ."
Acts 20:27 "For I did not shrink from declaring to you THE WHOLE PURPOSE OF GOD."
If the whole purpose of God includes salvation, and if baptism is required in order to be saved, then why did Paul not tell us that in all his letters? Paul NEVER said that a person must be baptized in water in order to be saved. In Romans 6, he doesn't say that. In Colossians 2, he doesn't say that.
On the contrary, Paul said, "For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not in cleverness of speech, so that the cross of Christ would not be made void." 1 Cor. 1:17 Paul clearly differentiates water baptism from preaching the gospel - specifically the cross of Christ and faith in Him.
solemnly testifying to both Jews and Greeks OF REPENTANCE TOWARD GOD AND FAITH IN OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST."
Is teaching getting baptized in order to be saved profitable? If it's true, of course it is.
But obviously Paul didn't think that that was true. Rather, what did he teach?
"Repentance toward God and faith in our Lord Jesus Christ."
Acts 20:27 "For I did not shrink from declaring to you THE WHOLE PURPOSE OF GOD."
If the whole purpose of God includes salvation, and if baptism is required in order to be saved, then why did Paul not tell us that in all his letters? Paul NEVER said that a person must be baptized in water in order to be saved. In Romans 6, he doesn't say that. In Colossians 2, he doesn't say that.
On the contrary, Paul said, "For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not in cleverness of speech, so that the cross of Christ would not be made void." 1 Cor. 1:17 Paul clearly differentiates water baptism from preaching the gospel - specifically the cross of Christ and faith in Him.
Doug Brents
Active Member
And again you assume that Paul lists everything that he taught that was right, true, or profitable in these two verses. But he doesn't, he can't, because there is much more that is profitable, true, and right than will fit in just two verses.
Jesus said it, Paul said it, Peter said it, John said it, Luke said it; you don't want to agree with it, but it is truth. And yes, Rom 6 and Col 2 both state that the Holy Spirit removes our sins during water baptism (since water baptism is the one baptism of the NT Church).
Ahh, so here it is water baptism, but in Rom 6 and Col 2 it is not, got it.
Clearly you read what you want to hear in Scripture instead of what it actually says. No, Paul is not saying that baptism is not important. But he did not come to town to reap a harvest. He came to plant the Seed. He knew that others would come later to harvest the crop. A farmer doesn't go out in May to reap a harvest. He goes out to till the soil. Then later he plants. Then later he waters, and cultivates, and weeds, and tends to the fields. And in August he goes out to harvest the increase. Paul knew it was only May (metaphorically) when he went to Corinth, so he went to plant the Seed, not expecting to reap a harvest immediately.
360watt
Active Member
I agree with salvation being seperate from water baptism. With 1 co 12, there is context of what kind of body is in view.
Paul writes to the assembly at Corinth..that they are the body of Christ.
The words to describe this are all in togetherness, unity, having care for one another...if one part is hurt..all feel it..
That's not really describing the entity of all redeemed, but a local NT christian assembly.
So, what I believe the baptism here is, is water baptism and it doesn't allow someone to get saved, but is a pre requisite to join a local NT church.
Saved, then joins a local body of Christ later, with water baptism as a requirement to join that body.
The key thing being.. the assembly at Corinth is called the body of Christ.
dwight92070
Active Member
dwight92070
Active Member
I can't believe this. Well, yes I can. Here we are, discussing one false doctrine that teaches water baptism is required for salvation, and then another false teaching raises its ugly head - i.e. that water baptism is necessary to join a local church. The Bible nowhere says that. Even to "join" a local church is false. When a person is saved, even before being baptized, they are automatically part of the universal body of Christ. There's no ceremony or instruction given in the Bible about how to "join" a local body. If any church requires that, they are teaching false doctrine. If "joining" a local church means to have your name put on a membership list, that's another lie. The Bible nowhere speaks of a membership list requirement to be part of a local church.
dwight92070
Active Member
Please show everyone the words in Romans 6, where Paul says that water baptism is required to be saved. First, verse 3 is speaking of the same baptism as 1 Cor. 12:13 - being baptized by the Holy Spirit into the body of Christ, or into Christ. There's no water here. Second, verse 4 IS speaking of water baptism as a sign of what happened in verse 3 - i.e. our salvation. In neither verse is water baptism presented as a requirement for salvation.And again you assume that Paul lists everything that he taught that was right, true, or profitable in these two verses. But he doesn't, he can't, because there is much more that is profitable, true, and right than will fit in just two verses.
Jesus said it, Paul said it, Peter said it, John said it, Luke said it; you don't want to agree with it, but it is truth. And yes, Rom 6 and Col 2 both state that the Holy Spirit removes our sins during water baptism (since water baptism is the one baptism of the NT Church).
Ahh, so here it is water baptism, but in Rom 6 and Col 2 it is not, got it.
No, Paul is not saying that baptism is not important. But he did not come to town to reap a harvest. He came to plant the Seed. He knew that others would come later to harvest the crop. A farmer doesn't go out in May to reap a harvest. He goes out to till the soil. Then later he plants. Then later he waters, and cultivates, and weeds, and tends to the fields. And in August he goes out to harvest the increase. Paul knew it was only May (metaphorically) when he went to Corinth, so he went to plant the Seed, not expecting to reap a harvest immediately.
Now show us the verses in Colossians 2 where Paul says that water baptism is required to be saved. In verse 11, he explains our salvation is like a spiritual circumcision by Christ, in which he removes the body of the flesh, which is our sinful nature. Verse 12 speaks of the symbolism of water baptism in being buried with Him, and raised up with Him, both of which occurred in the previous verse when we were spiritually circumcised by Christ - i.e. our salvation.
That which you accuse me of doing, you yourself are doing. "Clearly you read what you want to hear in Scripture instead of what it actually says."
You also said: "
"And again you assume that Paul lists everything that he taught that was right, true, or profitable in these two verses. But he doesn't, he can't, because there is much more that is profitable, true, and right than will fit in just two verses."
Well, will it fit in 213 verses? Because that's how many times salvation is referred to in the New Testament, with NO mention of salvation.
Obviously your pet doctrine, "salvation requires water baptism" doesn't fit into that scenario at all. If it did, why then do all these 213 verses not even bring it up? Could it be that water baptism is NOT required to be saved??? Yes, I think so.
360watt
Active Member
What body is Paul calling the body of Christ? It is the assembly at Corinth.
dwight92070
Active Member
Of course they were part of the body of Christ. But it's totally naive to think that the Spirit of God was not speaking to the universal body of Christ.
Why do you think Paul says the following?:
"When this letter is read among you, have it also read in the church of the Laodiceans; and you, for your part read my letter that is coming from Laodicea." Colossians 4:16
Paul wanted ALL the churches to hear ALL of his letters, which Peter called Scripture (2 Peter 3:15-16). Why? Because it was the word of God to the ENTIRE body of Christ, not just one locality. 1 Thess. 2:13
And of course today, we realize it was written for us as well - thank God.
Church "membership lists" are a real problem. First of all, the Bible NEVER instructs us to make any such list. The closest thing to it is mentioned in 1 Timothy 5:9 "A widow is to be put on the list only if she is not less than sixty years old ... " If you look at the plain context, this is NOT a list of church membership, it is a list of widows who are eligible to receive financial assistance from the church at large. Notice it also says in verse 11: "But refuse to put younger widows on the list ..." So if this was a membership list, then Paul would be saying that younger widows cannot be members of their church!! How likely is that? It's obviously NOT a membership list!
"Church membership lists" can and do cause a lot of confusion, which is not surprising, since the Bible never advocates using such lists. And God is not the author of confusion. You have many people who get baptized, and then are put on the church membership list. But then you find out that many of those people are not even saved, yet their names are still are that list!
I know that because that is exactly what happened at the Baptist church that I grew up in. My three siblings got baptized as teenagers in the youth group - that was "the thing" to do. But all of them admit that they were not believers back then. I chose to not be baptized as a teenager, which turned out to be a good thing, because I wasn't saved until I was 21. But as a teenager, it was quite unnerving for me to look at the church membership list, which was always in the lobby - to see that my name was the only name missing in my family! Why? Because I chose not to be baptized. My Dad, my mom, and all three siblings were listed, but not me. It was as if I didn't even exist. I could have gotten baptized, JUST SO THAT my name would be added to that list, along with the rest of my family. But I didn't, and I'm glad I didn't, because I was not truly born again until 6 or 7 years later. At that point, I was in San Antonio in the Air Force, and I wanted to be baptized - and I was. I knew that when I got saved, my name was "written" in heaven, the only list that matters. To be more accurate, my name was written "in Christ".
The ONLY list that the Bible speaks of is a book that God keeps, Exodus 32:32-33, and I'm quite sure that this is not a literal book - since God knows everything and forgets nothing. He has no need of a literal book to help him remember things.
Why do you think Paul says the following?:
"When this letter is read among you, have it also read in the church of the Laodiceans; and you, for your part read my letter that is coming from Laodicea." Colossians 4:16
Paul wanted ALL the churches to hear ALL of his letters, which Peter called Scripture (2 Peter 3:15-16). Why? Because it was the word of God to the ENTIRE body of Christ, not just one locality. 1 Thess. 2:13
And of course today, we realize it was written for us as well - thank God.
Church "membership lists" are a real problem. First of all, the Bible NEVER instructs us to make any such list. The closest thing to it is mentioned in 1 Timothy 5:9 "A widow is to be put on the list only if she is not less than sixty years old ... " If you look at the plain context, this is NOT a list of church membership, it is a list of widows who are eligible to receive financial assistance from the church at large. Notice it also says in verse 11: "But refuse to put younger widows on the list ..." So if this was a membership list, then Paul would be saying that younger widows cannot be members of their church!! How likely is that? It's obviously NOT a membership list!
"Church membership lists" can and do cause a lot of confusion, which is not surprising, since the Bible never advocates using such lists. And God is not the author of confusion. You have many people who get baptized, and then are put on the church membership list. But then you find out that many of those people are not even saved, yet their names are still are that list!
I know that because that is exactly what happened at the Baptist church that I grew up in. My three siblings got baptized as teenagers in the youth group - that was "the thing" to do. But all of them admit that they were not believers back then. I chose to not be baptized as a teenager, which turned out to be a good thing, because I wasn't saved until I was 21. But as a teenager, it was quite unnerving for me to look at the church membership list, which was always in the lobby - to see that my name was the only name missing in my family! Why? Because I chose not to be baptized. My Dad, my mom, and all three siblings were listed, but not me. It was as if I didn't even exist. I could have gotten baptized, JUST SO THAT my name would be added to that list, along with the rest of my family. But I didn't, and I'm glad I didn't, because I was not truly born again until 6 or 7 years later. At that point, I was in San Antonio in the Air Force, and I wanted to be baptized - and I was. I knew that when I got saved, my name was "written" in heaven, the only list that matters. To be more accurate, my name was written "in Christ".
The ONLY list that the Bible speaks of is a book that God keeps, Exodus 32:32-33, and I'm quite sure that this is not a literal book - since God knows everything and forgets nothing. He has no need of a literal book to help him remember things.
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dwight92070
Active Member
"For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it (The gospel! Not baptism!) is the power of God for salvation to everyone who (is baptized? NO!) believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek." Romans 1:16
If water baptism was required for salvation, what are the chances that Paul would have mentioned that here? 100%! But he didn't!
But, you might say, water baptism is an integral and required part of salvation. No, actually it isn't. It is required after we're saved, if we choose to obey Jesus, but not required to be saved.
In 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, Paul gives us a very clear description of what the gospel actually is: "Christ died for our sins, according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, ... " Being baptized is a "snapshot" of Christ being buried and raised up, which is what happened to us when we were saved.
"For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, ... " 1 Cor. 1:17 Paul makes it extremely clear here, that these are two different things.
If water baptism was required for salvation, what are the chances that Paul would have mentioned that here? 100%! But he didn't!
But, you might say, water baptism is an integral and required part of salvation. No, actually it isn't. It is required after we're saved, if we choose to obey Jesus, but not required to be saved.
In 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, Paul gives us a very clear description of what the gospel actually is: "Christ died for our sins, according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, ... " Being baptized is a "snapshot" of Christ being buried and raised up, which is what happened to us when we were saved.
"For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, ... " 1 Cor. 1:17 Paul makes it extremely clear here, that these are two different things.
360watt
Active Member
Yes, also, 'save' doesn't always mean delivery from sin, receiving eternal life.
So for eg.. getting baptised is part of your whole life 'salvaged ' or 'saved' .. seperate from eternal salvation at belief on Jesus for salvation.
You gotta ask what the saving is from.
dwight92070
Active Member
I believe that Paul is speaking here of initial salvation of the soul, which is what his primary mission was, to preach to the lost, although he did a lot of teaching too. But we Christians tend to be ashamed of the gospel, especially when speaking to non - believers. So when Paul says that he is not ashamed of the gospel, I think he is referring primarily to when he preaches to the lost. Baptism plays no part in initial salvation. If it did, I think Paul would have said that here, but he did not.
Doug Brents
Active Member
Please show us how it is that you come up with two different baptisms between verse 3 and verse 4. There are not two baptisms there; only one. And it is the ONE baptism that is mentioned in Eph 4:5-6, which is the same baptism mentioned in 1 Cor 12:13 and 1 Pet 3:21. All of these are the same baptism, and they all require water AND the Holy Spirit.
You are refusing to see that verse 12 shows that what is described in verse 11 happens IN/DURING the baptism mentioned in verse 12. It is IN baptism that the Holy Spirit cuts our sin away and washes us clean of every stain of sin.
You can think so all you want, but that doesn't change the TRUTH. Sure, you have 213 verses that talk about salvation but do not mention baptism, but every one of them does mention faith. And faith is not real or effective unless it includes actions of obedience. You want to make faith a passive, neutered, imitation of what it is really supposed to be. But faith must be active (James 2:14-26), obedient (Heb 5:9), and include ALL the things that God says are required to receive His gift of salvation (Acts 3:19, Rom 10:9-10, Acts 2:38).
dwight92070
Active Member
You said faith must be active. So what action did Abraham perform in Romans 4:5, in order for God to credit his faith as righteousness?
What action did David perform in order to receive a blessing from God, and have his sins forgiven in Roman 4:6-8? What action did Zacchaeus take for Jesus to declare that he was saved? What action did the proconsul take when he believed the gospel in Acts13:12? What action did Paul say was necessary to receive forgiveness of sins in Acts 13:38-39? What action did Peter, quoting the Old Testament prophets, say was necessary to receive forgiveness of sins in Acts 10:43? What action did the Gentiles take when they believed in Acts 13:48? What action did Peter say was required for the people in Acts 15:8-9 to have their hearts cleansed? What action did Peter say must be done to be saved in Acts 15:11? When Jesus was commissioning Paul, telling him to preach to Jews and Gentiles, what action did He tell Paul was required on their part, to turn from the dominion of Satan to God, and to receive forgiveness of sins in Acts 26:18?
What action did David perform in order to receive a blessing from God, and have his sins forgiven in Roman 4:6-8? What action did Zacchaeus take for Jesus to declare that he was saved? What action did the proconsul take when he believed the gospel in Acts13:12? What action did Paul say was necessary to receive forgiveness of sins in Acts 13:38-39? What action did Peter, quoting the Old Testament prophets, say was necessary to receive forgiveness of sins in Acts 10:43? What action did the Gentiles take when they believed in Acts 13:48? What action did Peter say was required for the people in Acts 15:8-9 to have their hearts cleansed? What action did Peter say must be done to be saved in Acts 15:11? When Jesus was commissioning Paul, telling him to preach to Jews and Gentiles, what action did He tell Paul was required on their part, to turn from the dominion of Satan to God, and to receive forgiveness of sins in Acts 26:18?
