The Unconditional Election Debate: An Universalist Perspective

[Pancho Frijoles]

Perhaps read my last post and realize that our original poster does not believe in any need for an atonement in Jesus.

Dizerner and @Eternally-Grateful

We are not discussing here Penal Substitutionary Atonement (PSA).

If a person is a PSA-believing Universalist, she may believe that all men will be persuaded, sooner or later, here or in the afterlife, to understand and accept PSA.
If a person is a Islamic Universalist, she may believe that all men will be persuaded, sooner or later, here on in the afterlife, to understand and accept the mission of Prophet Muhammed.
The point is that, whatever God's method of salvation happens to be, it will be available as long as God loves and human souls exists.

Dizerner and @Eternally-Grateful

I personally reject PSA, because I sincerely believe it is not a literal model of Jesus mission. My theological framework is different.
If I am wrong, God will let me know I am wrong, and why. Either here on earth or in the afterlife.
If I failed to believe in PSA due to ignorance, God will dissipate my ignorance. If I failed to believe due to arrogance, God will dissipate my arrogance, perhaps the harsh way: I will suffer, I will cry, I will gnash my teeth, and I will learn. From the belly of the whale in the middle of the ocean I will cry out to God, I will praise His Name, and He will listen.

Whatever is the reward or punishment God will give me, I will accept it because I trust his Wisdom, his Justice, his Mercy.

I don't want hell, just as any of you. But I don't fear hell. I focus on enjoying God's company, love and power in my life.

 

[civic]

Let me change your analogy by my son deciding to remain addicted.
If my son decides to remain addicted, I have for sure failed.... which only shows I am a human, imperfect planner.
My psychotherapist will tell me that I shouldn't blame myself too much, because I did what I could (assuming I did what I could)... but that is the issue, what I can do as a human father is limited by my own imperfections

God knows that we will make wrong choices from time to time. What we don't understand sometimes, is that God is interested in the long term.
Righteousness, the fruits of the spirit, are not produced overnight.

Let me use this example. I hope it does not offend anyone:

God is not really interested if a teenager masturbates or not this evening. God is interested that teenager developing into a man who is sexually healthy and wise.... who enjoys sex within the frame of genuine and enduring love and commitment, as found within marriage.​

​

The path to become sexually healthy and wise already accounts for the fact that the boy will masturbate, and have sexual fantasies, and learn little by little, sometimes through difficulties and drawbacks, how to respect and use wisely his sexual drive.​

The first time I masturbated I was a Catholic (12 years), and then I kept masturbating as a Seventh Day Adventist during my teenager years. I was under the belief that if I did not confess my sin of masturbation every time I did it, I could go to hell (as Catholic) or anhiliation (as SDA). The problem, I remember, is that when I was kneeling down asking God forgiveness, I realized that I would masturbate again... so I freaked out, realizing that my repentance was not sincere!​

Years went by, I experienced hell during my atheist years, becoming slave of my narcicism and uncontrolled sexual impulses. It was hell because I lost my family, and I discovered that sexual narcicism is a prison.
Then, about 9 years ago, learned through Bahá'u'lláh, that salvation is an eternal process, and heaven and hell start right here, on earth. That God's plans are long-term. That heaven and hell in the afterlife are an extension of the heaven and hell we start here, on this earth.

And certainly, our focus should be in the present salvation, in TODAY's paradise we are call to enjoy, in TODAY's hell we are been offered to escape from, living the life Christ taught us to live.

You cannot control , force yourself upon another it’s up to them to see the need and correct their behavior

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

You cannot control , force yourself upon another it’s up to them to see the need and correct their behavior

I agree.
I cannot control... But I can influence.
How much?
Well, some influencers are better than others. I'm a poor one. Youtuber influencers are much better than me. God beats them all.

 

[civic]

I agree.
I cannot control... But I can influence.
How much?
Well, some influencers are better than others. I'm a poor one. Youtuber influencers are much better than me. God beats them all.

Agree we can influence people and prayerfully, hopefully they have their minds and hearts open to change.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Also you forgot one.

4. MORALIST'S SOLUTION:
Man is basically good and sin is not that bad, so you can just go to heaven by being a good boy and God doesn't really need to do much to forgive you. Jesus just died to show us what a great guy he was and how much he was willing to suffer, not to actually be punished for our sins.

The solution you propose does not seem to an independent one... I mean, it seems to me to fall into any of the three categories (Calvinist, Armininan or Universalist). To be a good boy, God has to change our minds, our hearts. Do we agree?

Neither Calvinists, nor Arminians, nor Universalists (at least me) believe that Pancho can become a good boy just because he decided, or because he has the talent and skills to become a good boy.
We all agree that God's grace is what transform us into good boys and girls. Without his grace, nothing is possible.

 

[TedT]

Perhaps I need to digest your post in pieces,

I often suggest people do this, , but some take one small bite such as Jer 1:5, look at what the commentaries say about it and say, "Nope, pce is not taught in the bible," and wander off...

elaborate further in the difference between your solution ("THE PRECONCEPTION EXISTENCE") and the Arminian solution.

1. In Arminian theology, human beings possess libertarian free will, making them the ultimate source of their choices and granting them the ability to choose otherwise. WIKI

PCE contends that this negates our enslavement to sin and the inability of sinners to do anything to save themself. If he could save himself by any means such fs an honest appeal ot Christ to save him, then hell would be empty as they use their enslaved will to change their minds.

2. Adam's sin is imputed to those in him and that they inherit a condemned status as well as a polluted nature from him by virtue of his headship. wiki

PCE contends God does not create sin, sinners nor any evil by any means, not even by a surrogate.

Physical light cannot create darkness.
Dark is created when there is an impediment to the light.

Goodness cannot create evil.
Light cannot create darkness:
the evil by Adam interpretation means that light CAN create darkness, and by meabns of a surrogate at that! - HE got Adam to do HIS dirty work for HIM! Impossible!!!

It implies there is a power from GOD that when employed can stand in opposition to GOD! GOD is not a house divided, GOD is light and light cannot create darkness which is created only if something else blocks the light. This is akin to believing that there is a match or source of darkness which when employed shoots our darkness and fills the room with dark!!

A good tree cannot put forth rotten fruit.
Berean Literal Bible
Matt 7:18 A good tree is not able to bear bad fruits...the theology that we are created fallen says a good, even perfect, tree CAN produce bad fruit.

A stream of life giving water cannot put forth salt or brackish water.
Berean Standard Bible
James 3:12 My brothers, can a fig tree grow olives, or a grapevine bear figs? Neither can a salt spring produce fresh water. This theology cays a fig tree CAN grow olives, that a grapevine CAN bear figs and that a salt spring CAN produce fresh water!

GOODNESS cannot bring forth evil.
Inherent evil cannot have been a part of our creation. We must have been created as perfectly able to choose by our free will to enter HIS righteous perfection or to repudiate HIS righteousness and become HIS eternal enemy.

All sin, all evil is a result of the free will choices of HIS creation, not from any part of creating us as sinful or evil. Since the bible says we are born / conceived sinful it must be impling that we had our time of free will by which we became sinful in HIS sight BEFORE the creation of this world which we all saw Job 38:7 before all sinners were flung into Sheol within the earth, Rev 12:4-9, and then sown, moved to a place of growth for the redemption of HIS sinful elect, ie, the sinful people of HIS kingdom, Matt 13:36-39. [Sown cannot mean to be created as the devil sows also.]

There is probably more but this hits the highlights...

 

[TedT]

If possible, as a second petition, I would like you to explain further what you meant in this paragraph.

If enslavement to sin does not end our free will then not only is it meaningless but it corrupts GOD's love by suggesting GOD could save people from hell when they change their minds but doesn't. A true Arminian definition of free will seems to condone universalism, which I have chosen to reject.

But I agree: Hell proves HIS love....for HIS Bride!
IF we were created as eternally self and other aware spirits and
IF we were all created with a free will and
IF there is an unforgivable sin, a sin that puts the person outside of all grace and so eternally evil and
IF some of HIS creation chose to sin the unforgivable sin and
IF it is true that a little leaven / sin leavens / corrupts the whole lump / person / community, then
IF the only way to protect HIS Church and heavenly Family from these eternally evil people was to banish them from HIS heavenly reality,
THEN hell is an absolute necessity to keep the eternally evil ones from corrupting HIS heaven.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Brother

Which should answer your own question

But as you said, no one would deny him, in fact every knee will bow to him and declair he is God.

But damnation is because we did not believe

Think of John 3, He had them raise the serpent, whoever looked lived, whoever did not died.

if the ones who died would have seen their future and seen that God was real, would they have denied? No.

Disobeying God has consequences. Bad, painful consequences.
When we are teaching our kids to obey our instructions, several times they disobey because they don't believe that such consequences are real.... until they realize they are real... and they get into a painful situation.

What do we do then? Well, we let them bear the consequences inasmuch as they represent an opportunity for them to learn.... but we try to remove all other suffering that does not help them to learn.

I remember when I left my two girls had an examination at school scheduled for next day, and they spent all afternoon playing instead of studying, despite my warnings and her mother's warnings. I remember she told me "Let them fail the exam. Let them get ashamed. Let them get desperate"
So we did that. My girls failed the test. They got very sad, ashamed, angry with themselves, etc.
But then, once we thought they had learned something, we sat with them to help them prepare for the next examination. We didn't let them to keep suffering more for no reason.

Same with God's punishment.
It has a purpose. He is not delighted in seeing his children suffer for no reason. And certainly he is not a sadist. He punishes to help us to repent and become what He created us for. He will not punish a soul for eternity if that soul has repented and learnt a lesson.

Please examine with me these two texts:

"Those whom I love, I rebuke and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent" (Rev 3:19)

“But if the wicked person turns from all his sins which he has committed and keeps all My statutes and practices justice and righteousness, he shall certainly live; he shall not die. All his offenses which he has committed will not be remembered against him; because of his righteousness which he has practiced, he will live. Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked,” declares the Lord God, rather than that he would turn from his ways and live?“ (Ezekiel 18:21-23)

 

[TedT]

Also you forgot one.

4. MORALIST'S SOLUTION:
Man is basically good and sin is not that bad, so you can just go to heaven by being a good boy and God doesn't really need to do much to forgive you. Jesus just died to show us what a great guy he was and how much he was willing to suffer, not to actually be punished for our sins.

The basic pov of all paganism, the nations without GOD.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

IF there is an unforgivable sin, a sin that puts the person outside of all grace and so eternally evil and

You bring a very interesting issue: the unforgivable sin.

Let's remember the context in which the unforgivable sin is mentioned:

Jesus was healing a man, and the enemies of Jesus accused Jesus of healing by the power of Beelzebul. Jesus replied that it would be impossible for Beelzebul to heal a person. Beelzebul does not destroy his own works.
Then Jesus said that men who spoke against him could be forgiven, but those who spoke against the Holy Spirit would not be forgiven, neither now, nor in the afterlife.

Those men were speaking against the Holy Spirt, but adjudicating the works of the Holy Spirit (healing a man) to an evil force or being (Beelzebul).

As long as we confuse good and evil, adjudicating the good to the evil, we have put ourselves out of the reach of God... precisely because we will not recognize that we are evil, and we need Who is Good.
The first premise for somebody to repent is to recognize he has made evil, and that he wants to pass from that bad situation (let's call it "hell") to a good situation (let's call it eternal life).

When the sacred text says that it will not be forgiven, it implies that it will not be forgiven as long as the person is in that situation.
In contrast, speaking against Jesus does not have the same consequence. Let's see why:

Let's say that a Jew, owner of a bank, honestly believes that Jesus was a fraud, a cheap magician, that he violated the Torah, that he didn't fullfill his promises, etc and he posts those things in this Forum. He is speaking against Jesus, isn't he?
Well, as long as such Jew can discern that when he cheated on his customers he did a bad thing, and that being honest with his customers from now on is a good thing, he can be reached by the Holy Spirit and be forgiven of his fraud to his customers.
But if he clings to the idea that cheating on his customers is good, and being honest is dumb, how can he repent and find salvation?

*****

That's why I insist so much in this Forum:
Don't ever say that a Muslim lady or a Sikh man who expresses the fruits of the spirit (love, kindness, peace, joy, self-control, patience, etc) is led by Beelzebul, just because they are mistaken in doctrines. Be careful. Think twice: Do not ever do that, because you are denying the works of the Holy Spirit and calling them the works of Satan.

 

[TedT]

God keeps loving all souls forever.

Ps 5:5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

8130. sane: To hate, detest, be hostile to
Original Word: שָׂנֵא
Definition: To hate, detest, be hostile to

IF GOD is not double minded and does not change HIS mind here then there was a time before HE chose to love or to hate, a time which was before our choices were made to enter HIS love (evidenced by HIS election of them to salvation) OR to enter HIS hate (evidenced by HIS warnings of eternal banishment to the outer darkness)...for ever.

We chose our FATES - HE chose our LIVES to bring HIS sinful elect to redemption and sanctification. HE does not waver, HE is not double minded and hate and love are mutually exclusive.

​

​

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

We are humans and we fail.
I'm not saying we should get neurotic about our failure, because we should know that we are imperfect and we fail. God knows that.
God expects us to educate our children according to our imperfect limits.

The fact that we educate our children to do good and avoid evil, speaks that we all believe that education influences their choices, without violating their free will.
The best we educate our children, the highest the likelihood of success.

A poor education will succeed, say, 50% of the times.
An excellent education will succeed, say, 90% of the times (in Mexico drug addiction is much less of a problem than in the USA, so my estimation may look optimistic to some of you).
A divine education, provided by the Supreme and Infallible Educator will succeed 100% of the times.

To me, God always wins. Not overnight, precisely because He respects our free will. But He wins in the end of the day.

I know people who were raised by great Christian parents. had great education, and still failed.

Addiction hits everyone..

and yes we all fail. Sadly, human failure against God means eternal death, Unless you are saved by the cross. but God will not force it on you

 

[ProDeo]

I agree.
Sin is part of the path and plan.

Nope.

Sin is the result of free will.

God knew that on beforehand before He created us.

And yet He decided to create us anyway.

And His solution to sin before He created us --> The Lamb slain from the foundation of the world [Rev 13:8]

A part of Himself.

Can you feel the love?

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Ps 5:5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

8130. sane: To hate, detest, be hostile to
Original Word: שָׂנֵא
Definition: To hate, detest, be hostile to

IF GOD is not double minded and does not change HIS mind here then there was a time before HE chose to love or to hate, a time which was before our choices were made to enter HIS love (evidenced by HIS election of them to salvation) OR to enter HIS hate (evidenced by HIS warnings of eternal banishment to the outer darkness)...for ever.

We chose our FATES - HE chose our LIVES to bring HIS sinful elect to redemption and sanctification. HE does not waver, HE is not double minded and hate and love are mutually exclusive.

​

That "hate" is an anthropomorphizing term, as many other references to God.
To me, the author meant that God hates the workers of iniquity as workers of iniquity.... I don't know if in English it is clearer to say inasmuch as they are workers of iniquity.

Let's confess it: We all have "hated" our kids when they have been too annoying, too disobedient, too rebellious. We want them out our sight. A mother once told me: "I would like to have a sort of remote control in which I could click on a button and make them disappear for a couple of days or perhaps a week". My own sister declared: "I would like to travel to a remote location where I could not be found, and leave my children to take care of themselves. I wouldn't give a d..... That way they will appreciate what I do for them"

Since the Bible often refers to God in human terms, it is natural that it also presents God as "hating" (or even "regretting").

However, if God really hated the workers of iniquity, tell me one thing, TedT: Why would God be interested at all in such workers of iniquity turning from their wrong ways?

Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked,” declares the Lord God, rather than that he would turn from his ways and live? (Ezekiel 18:23)

Please consider the very harsh terms in which God spoke to Israel through the Prophets. Those terms were loaded with wrath. Weren't they?
Israel was worse than a whore, and didn't deserve anything else but God's wrath and destruction.
However, few passages later, God speaks of Israel with LOVE, and promises RESTORATION.

In the New Testament, Jesus commanded us to love even our enemies. Our enemies. How could Jesus ask us to love our enemies, if God does not love those who are our enemies?

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Nope.

Sin is the result of free will.

Sure. It is the result of free will. We are the ones who make bad choices.
What I say is that free will is part of the plan. It is factored in, accounted for. It is not a failure or a surprise.
The setting God provides, this life, is a setting in which sinning is possible, and in which repenting from sinning is possible.

If a baby is learning to walk, we know the baby will stumble and fall several times, and will have to learn to stand up and keep walking DESPITE the possibility of falls. We won't stop him from falling. We may guide him to avoid some dangerous falls, but letting them fall is part of the learning process.

 

[Dizerner]

A true Arminian definition of free will seems to condone universalism, which I have chosen to reject.

Explain how that follows, I do not see a logical connection.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

I know people who were raised by great Christian parents. had great education, and still failed.

Me too.
Just consider two things:

1. Such boys/girls have not failed forever. Did the prodigal son fail? Yes, but not forever. So, the good education and love of those parents may yield fruits of repentance and change years ahead. Let's be patient.
2. God's education capabilities and love are far beyond our imperfect skills as parents. As I say: ineffectual parents will succeed in <50% of cases. Good parents in 60%. Excellent parents in 80%. A Divine Father? I guess 100%.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Can you feel the love?

Yes, I feel it, ProDeo.
God sent Jesus because he loved us, and Jesus lived and died on the cross because he loved God and he loved us.
The solution to the problem of sin is opening ourselves to that love, which Christ exemplifies.
That implies repenting and turning from our bad ways, and being born again into a new life of love to God and to our neighbors.
Jesus commandment is this: That we love each other as He loved us.

 

[TedT]

3. Free will Universalism: God puts enough persuasion to bear on people they eventually have to cave in and accept.

And I would argue that #3 fundamentally violates free will as it is essentially complete coercion removing the possibility of rejection.

How do you reconcile saved by grace when enslaved to sin:
Ephesians 2:8-9 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works so that no one may boast.....
so,
I would argue that saved by grace denies our will BUT...it denies or overwhelms our enslaved will, NOT our free will because as enslaved to sin, we have no free will.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

I agree.
Sin is part of the path and plan.

Well sin was not part of the plan. Sin was a result of God giving man free will..He wanted to have a relationship with them. you can not have a true relationship unless their is free will

Even the saints, the born again, those who can claim to have crucified the old man and to make Christ the center of their lives, sin. Whoever says not to sin is a liar.
So, if God plan were to keep us unable to sin after we are born again, why doesn't God take all the born-again to heaven like Enoch, instead of allowing them to keep committing sins throughout their lives?

Because he needs us to help others come to christ. Thats why he sent out the 12 and told them to make disciples. and take the plan of salvation to the world.

The issue to avoid is remaining in sin. Becoming slaves of sin.

If you sin, even stumble in one area. you have failed to meet the law or you have failed to earn righteousness.. since we all still sin, we all continue to need kept by grace

When Peter was walking over the water, at some point he doubted and started to sink. But he didn't drown.
As long as you don't drown, sinking from time to time is part of the experience of building faith (trust) in God.

A person is born dead. Eventually he has earned his death. He must be born again, or he is lost.