The Unconditional Election Debate: An Universalist Perspective

[Pancho Frijoles]

if its Gods will that none should perish ( His plan ) and people perish that are not saved. Then by definition His will has failed.

Yes, that would be the logical conclusion. God's plan would have failed.
But none of us would accept that conclusion. God's plan/will cannot fail. He is All Powerful, All Wise.
Nothing can escape his will.

So, we explain the fact that some people are rejecting God, by saying that God's plan was to save only few for no reason (Calvinism) or to save only those who in use of their free will accept to be saved (Arminism and Universalism).

Arminians think that God allows Himself only 90 years or so to love a soul, call her to repentance.
Universalists think that God loves a soul forever, and takes all time needed to call her to repentance. If the soul resists for, say, 225 years (measured from our perspective), then God will keep insisting for 225 years. In the meantime, the soul resisting grace will be separated from God, in pain. That is hell.
Certainly, after biological death comes judgement, and after judgement the soul can go to prison/stay in prison "until she pays the last cent". But God always listens to people in prison and keeps attracting people in prison. Christ himself is said to have visited spirits in prison.

In both cases, Arminians and Universalists believe that God does not force his will or plan on people.

 

[civic]

Yes, that would be the logical conclusion. God's plan would have failed.
But none of us would accept that conclusion. God's plan/will cannot fail. He is All Powerful, All Wise.
Nothing can escape his will.

So, we explain the fact that some people are rejecting God, by saying that God's plan was to save only few for no reason (Calvinism) or to save only those who in use of their free will accept to be saved (Arminism and Universalism).

Arminians think that God allows Himself only 90 years or so to love a soul, call her to repentance.
Universalists think that God loves a soul forever, and takes all time needed to call her to repentance. If the soul resists for, say, 225 years (measured from our perspective), then God will keep insisting for 225 years. In the meantime, the soul resisting grace will be separated from God, in pain. That is hell.
Certainly, after biological death comes judgement, and after judgement the soul can go to prison (hell) "until she pays the last cent". But God always listens to people in prison and keeps attracting people in prison. Christ himself is said to have visited spirits in prison.

In both cases, Arminians and Universalists believe that God does not force his will or plan on people.

I think you have a different view of Gods attributes than the biblical view. For example Sovereignty and being Omnipotent does not mean God does not restrain His power or control as He rules His creation.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Perhaps read my last post and realize that our original poster does not believe in any need for an atonement in Jesus.

Yes, I saw this, But that does not give us leeway to depart from the question of the op

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

This is incorrect, or at the least ambiguous, God's goal is not necessarily coincided with his plan.

The Cross was a plan B—a truth Calvinists hate to see!

When God asks man to obey, that is always his plan A.

The cross was plan A,

there is no other plan. The obedience plan went out the door the moment adam sinned. In adam all die.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Yes, that would be the logical conclusion. God's plan would have failed.
But none of us would accept that conclusion. God's plan/will cannot fail. He is All Powerful, All Wise.
Nothing can escape his will.

So, we explain the fact that some people are rejecting God, by saying that God's plan was to save only few for no reason (Calvinism) or to save only those who in use of their free will accept to be saved (Arminism and Universalism).

Arminians think that God allows Himself only 90 years or so to love a soul, call her to repentance.
Universalists think that God loves a soul forever, and takes all time needed to call her to repentance. If the soul resists for, say, 225 years (measured from our perspective), then God will keep insisting for 225 years. In the meantime, the soul resisting grace will be separated from God, in pain. That is hell.
Certainly, after biological death comes judgement, and after judgement the soul can go to prison/stay in prison "until she pays the last cent". But God always listens to people in prison and keeps attracting people in prison. Christ himself is said to have visited spirits in prison.

In both cases, Arminians and Universalists believe that God does not force his will or plan on people.

I would not put it this way either.

Free will believers (Again trying not to use a term Arminian, which is a small part of those who believe in free will) believe God gives us this lifetime to find him and repent. In fact. he will do whatever it take to get you to repent. except to remove your free will.. He will not force salvation on you. If we leave this planet in unbelief, we will not get a second chance.,

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

This is incorrect, or at the least ambiguous, God's goal is not necessarily coincided with his plan.

The Cross was a plan B—a truth Calvinists hate to see!

When God asks man to obey, that is always his plan A.

I wouldn't like to debate on words at that level, my friend... if you wish we could say "God's will".

Still, let me use "plan" for the following reflection:

A good plan is one that allows the planner to meet his purpose. A good plan accounts for temporary obstacles, delays, deficits, unexpected events.
If I have a plan to build my house in one year, I should account for many circumstances not under my control, so that I can finish the house in one year. If I don't have it built in one year, then my plan was not good.

God's plan implies respecting man's free will. It accounts for temporary resistance and rebellion, for ignorance, etc.

I dont' believe that the "fall of Adam" was a failure of God's plan "A", that forced him to resort to "Plan B".
God had created a man with free will, so how to handle his potential bad choices didn't take God by surprise. This was already contemplated within his only plan.

 

[Dizerner]

The cross was plan A,

This is a blasphemous claim and a deep insult to God's character, putting his primary desire for rebellion and his own suffering.

I urge you to prayerfully consider this slander of God's goodness and holiness.

there is no other plan. The obedience plan went out the door the moment adam sinned. In adam all die.

The "moment Adam sinned" was a different moment than the "moment Adam was created."

 

[Dizerner]

Yes, I saw this, But that does not give us leeway to depart from the question of the op

The question in the op included why Christ's sacrifice seems to "fail" and also What is the solution dictated by the Bible?

To say anything I've written is beyond the purview of these topics is beyond a stretch.

 

[Dizerner]

A good plan is one that allows the planner to meet his purpose.

That simply eliminates free will. You can plan for your son to go to college and be an upstanding citizen.

Did your plan "fail" if your son decides to be a drug addict?

Or maybe is it your son who failed, and not you.

I dont' believe that the "fall of Adam" was a failure of God's plan "A", that forced him to resort to "Plan B". God had created a man with free will, so how to handle his potential bad choices didn't take God by surprise. This was already contemplated within his only plan.

A plan B has nothing to do with taking a person by surprise, those are not logically connected.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

I would not put it this way either.

Free will believers (Again trying not to use a term Arminian, which is a small part of those who believe in free will) believe God gives us this lifetime to find him and repent. In fact. he will do whatever it take to get you to repent. except to remove your free will.. He will not force salvation on you. If we leave this planet in unbelief, we will not get a second chance.,

I understand your point, my friend (May I ask if you are a brother or a sister?). I held that view in the past.

I don't think biological life determines the limits of God's love and interest for a soul.
The parable of the rich and Lazarus, although certainly metaphorical in some aspects, was not a fabule devoid of truth about the afterlife.
That parable shows that souls in torment are able to think, to understand an explanation, to realize the cause of their torment, and to desire something different.
It couldn't be otherwise. Which soul wants to remain in hell? Which prisoner wants to remain in prison? Hell sucks. Hell hurts.
Now, who says that God has lost interest in the souls in pain, just because they don't have bones and blood and lungs? He loves. He loves forever.

*****

We are the ones that try to run away from God, as Jonah tried to do.
God is the one who reaches out and initiates our salvation, even by sending a fish to swallow us, so that we can feel the solitude and despair of the abyss. God is eternally faithful.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

This is a blasphemous claim and a deep insult to God's character, putting his primary desire for rebellion and his own suffering.

I urge you to prayerful consider this slander of God's goodness and holiness.

No greater love has anyone, than he give his life for the one he loves.

Your blasphemy accusation is meaningless. The cross has always been the answer to mans problem of sin. God knew we would not live a life perfect even before he created us (adam and Eve) and it was Gods plan to not only create us anyone. but make a way to restore us to him

The "moment Adam sinned" was a different moment than the "moment Adam was created."

God chose us before the foundation of the world.

God is omniscient, Adam did not suprise God by sinning, God already adam would sin.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

That simply eliminates free will. You can plan for your son to go to college and be an upstanding citizen.
Did your plan "fail" if your son decides to be a drug addict?

Let me change your analogy by my son deciding to remain addicted.
If my son decides to remain addicted, I have for sure failed.... which only shows I am a human, imperfect planner.
My psychotherapist will tell me that I shouldn't blame myself too much, because I did what I could (assuming I did what I could)... but that is the issue, what I can do as a human father is limited by my own imperfections

God knows that we will make wrong choices from time to time. What we don't understand sometimes, is that God is interested in the long term.
Righteousness, the fruits of the spirit, are not produced overnight.

Let me use this example. I hope it does not offend anyone:

God is not really interested if a teenager masturbates or not this evening. God is interested that teenager developing into a man who is sexually healthy and wise.... who enjoys sex within the frame of genuine and enduring love and commitment, as found within marriage.​

​

The path to become sexually healthy and wise already accounts for the fact that the boy will masturbate, and have sexual fantasies, and learn little by little, sometimes through difficulties and drawbacks, how to respect and use wisely his sexual drive.​

The first time I masturbated I was a Catholic (12 years), and then I kept masturbating as a Seventh Day Adventist during my teenager years. I was under the belief that if I did not confess my sin of masturbation every time I did it, I could go to hell (as Catholic) or anhiliation (as SDA). The problem, I remember, is that when I was kneeling down asking God forgiveness, I realized that I would masturbate again... so I freaked out, realizing that my repentance was not sincere!​

Years went by, I experienced hell during my atheist years, becoming slave of my narcicism and uncontrolled sexual impulses. It was hell because I lost my family, and I discovered that sexual narcicism is a prison.
Then, about 9 years ago, learned through Bahá'u'lláh, that salvation is an eternal process, and heaven and hell start right here, on earth. That God's plans are long-term. That heaven and hell in the afterlife are an extension of the heaven and hell we start here, on this earth.

And certainly, our focus should be in the present salvation, in TODAY's paradise we are call to enjoy, in TODAY's hell we are been offered to escape from, living the life Christ taught us to live.

 

[Dizerner]

If my son decides to remain addicted, I have for sure failed....

Then free will isn't free.

You want to eat your cake and have it too.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

I understand your point, my friend (May I ask if you are a brother or a sister?). I held that view in the past.

Brother

I don't think biological life determines the limits of God's love and interest for a soul.
The parable of the rich and Lazarus, although certainly metaphorical in some aspects, was not a fabule devoid of truth about the afterlife.
That parable shows that souls in torment are able to think, to understand an explanation, to realize the cause of their torment, and to desire something different.
It couldn't be otherwise. Which soul wants to remain in hell? Hell sucks. Hell hurts.

Which should answer your own question

Now, who says that God has lost interest in the souls in pain, just because they don't have bones and blood and lungs? He loves. He loves forever.

*****

But as you said, no one would deny him, in fact every knee will bow to him and declair he is God.

But damnation is because we did not believe

Think of John 3, He had them raise the serpent, whoever looked lived, whoever did not died.

if the ones who died would have seen their future and seen that God was real, would they have denied? No.

We are the ones that try to run away from God, as Jonah tried to do.
God is the one who reaches out and initiates our salvation, even by sending a fish to swallow us, so that we can feel the solitude and despair of the abyss. God is eternally faithful.

Yes he reaches out.

he who believes is not condemned, he who does not believe is condemned already

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

If my son decides to remain addicted, I have for sure failed...

how would you have failed. did you cause your son to start taking an addictive drug or whatever he is addicted to?

That would be on your son, not you

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Then free will isn't free.

That's right.
Free does not mean " absolutely free" when we talk about humans.
To be absolutely free, we would need to know and understand all motives and potential consequences of our choices. Furthermore, to have access to all choices that are logically compatible with our being.

That's why only God is The Free, and from Him all freedom derives. He is All-Knowing and Almighty. So He is The Free.
In Baha'i writings, one of God's titles is "The Free" for this reason.

Now, the more we get to know God, who is The Truth, the freer we get.
That's why Jesus said You wil know the truth, and truth will set you free.

If you as a Christian decide to avoid drugs is not because you are restricting your freedom, but because you enjoy more freedom, knowing better the spiritual and physical motives and consequences of getting addicted to drugs.

The more we let Christ live through us, the freer we become. But freedom is not absolute. It is a matter of degree. Even Paul, who said that was crucified with Christ and lived the life of Christ, recognized that he was not still free from the flesh.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

how would you have failed. did you cause your son to start taking an addictive drug or whatever he is addicted to?

That would be on your son, not you

We are humans and we fail.
I'm not saying we should get neurotic about our failure, because we should know that we are imperfect and we fail. God knows that.
God expects us to educate our children according to our imperfect limits.

The fact that we educate our children to do good and avoid evil, speaks that we all believe that education influences their choices, without violating their free will.
The best we educate our children, the highest the likelihood of success.

A poor education will succeed, say, 50% of the times.
An excellent education will succeed, say, 90% of the times (in Mexico drug addiction is much less of a problem than in the USA, so my estimation may look optimistic to some of you).
A divine education, provided by the Supreme and Infallible Educator will succeed 100% of the times.

To me, God always wins. Not overnight, precisely because He respects our free will. But He wins in the end of the day.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

This is a blasphemous claim and a deep insult to God's character, putting his primary desire for rebellion and his own suffering.

I urge you to prayerfully consider this slander of God's goodness and holiness.



The "moment Adam sinned" was a different moment than the "moment Adam was created."

Calm down, my friend.
We all have not only limited understanding, but fail to express our ideas properly. That includes me and includes you.
Reserve the title "blasphemous" and "deep insult to God's character" to those doctrines that teach that Sikhs will be tortured forever in hell, without any opportunity to learn anything, or to change anything, for having died as Sikhs, without believing the deity of Jesus, or PSA, or physical resurrection.
That's blasphemous and a deep insult to God's character, that any seven-year-old girl from Sunday School can detect.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

3. Free will Universalism: God puts enough persuasion to bear on people they eventually have to cave in and accept.

And I would argue that #3 fundamentally violates free will as it is essentially complete coercion removing the possibility of rejection.

Persuasion, by definition, cannot violate free will. Otherwise it will be coercion. Do we agree on that?

When you punish your boy, do you do it to force your boy to choose what is right next time he faces a similar situation?
Or do you punish your boy so that he can have time to reflect on the consequences, and decide freely next time to make a right choice?

Why is it so difficult to imagine a God who can persuade us to, eventually, make right choices?
I can imagine MY WIFE persuading me to make right choices! You don't know her! She is very logical, and very persistent... and also charming.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

God is omniscient, Adam did not suprise God by sinning, God already adam would sin.

I agree.
Sin is part of the path and plan.
Even the saints, the born again, those who can claim to have crucified the old man and to make Christ the center of their lives, sin. Whoever says not to sin is a liar.
So, if God plan were to keep us unable to sin after we are born again, why doesn't God take all the born-again to heaven like Enoch, instead of allowing them to keep committing sins throughout their lives?

The issue to avoid is remaining in sin. Becoming slaves of sin.
When Peter was walking over the water, at some point he doubted and started to sink. But he didn't drown.
As long as you don't drown, sinking from time to time is part of the experience of building faith (trust) in God.