brightfame52
Active Member
The unregenerate man is in the flesh Rom 8:7-8
Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
The Unconditional Election Debate: An Universalist Perspective
- Thread starter Pancho Frijoles
- Start date
Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
You ignored much
You are still running
Man can
Deuteronomy 30:11–20 (LEB) — 11 “For this commandment that I am commanding you today is not too wonderful for you, and it is not too far from you. 12 It is not in the heavens so that you might say, ‘Who will go up for us to the heavens and get it for us and cause us to hear it, so that we may do it?’ 13 And it is not beyond the sea, so that you might say, ‘Who will cross for us to the other side of the sea and take it for us and cause us to hear it, so that we may do it?’ 14 But the word is very near you, even in your mouth and in your heart, so that you may do it. 15 “See, I am setting before you today life and prosperity and death and disaster; 16 what I am commanding you today is to love Yahweh your God by going in his ways and by keeping his commandments and his statutes and his regulations, and then you will live, and you will become numerous, and Yahweh your God will bless you in the land where you are going. 17 However, if your heart turns aside and you do not listen and you are lured away and you bow down to other gods and you serve them, 18 I declare to you today that you will certainly perish; you will not extend your time on the land that you are crossing the Jordan to go there to take possession of it. 19 I invoke as a witness against you today the heaven and the earth: life and death I have set before you, blessing and curse. So choose life, so that you may live, you and your offspring, 20 by loving Yahweh your God by listening to his voice and by clinging to him, for he is your life and the length of your days in order for you to live on the land that Yahweh swore to your ancestors, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give to them.”
Joshua 24:15–31 (NASB 95) — 15 If it is disagreeable in your sight to serve the Lord, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve: whether the gods which your fathers served which were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living; but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.” 16 The people answered and said, “Far be it from us that we should forsake the Lord to serve other gods; 17 for the Lord our God is He who brought us and our fathers up out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage, and who did these great signs in our sight and preserved us through all the way in which we went and among all the peoples through whose midst we passed. 18 The Lord drove out from before us all the peoples, even the Amorites who lived in the land. We also will serve the Lord, for He is our God.” 19 Then Joshua said to the people, “You will not be able to serve the Lord, for He is a holy God. He is a jealous God; He will not forgive your transgression or your sins. 20 If you forsake the Lord and serve foreign gods, then He will turn and do you harm and consume you after He has done good to you.” 21 The people said to Joshua, “No, but we will serve the Lord.” 22 Joshua said to the people, “You are witnesses against yourselves that you have chosen for yourselves the Lord, to serve Him.” And they said, “We are witnesses.” 23 “Now therefore, put away the foreign gods which are in your midst, and incline your hearts to the Lord, the God of Israel.” 24 The people said to Joshua, “We will serve the Lord our God and we will obey His voice.” 25 So Joshua made a covenant with the people that day, and made for them a statute and an ordinance in Shechem. 26 And Joshua wrote these words in the book of the law of God; and he took a large stone and set it up there under the oak that was by the sanctuary of the Lord. 27 Joshua said to all the people, “Behold, this stone shall be for a witness against us, for it has heard all the words of the Lord which He spoke to us; thus it shall be for a witness against you, so that you do not deny your God.” 28 Then Joshua dismissed the people, each to his inheritance. 29 It came about after these things that Joshua the son of Nun, the servant of the Lord, died, being one hundred and ten years old. 30 And they buried him in the territory of his inheritance in Timnath-serah, which is in the hill country of Ephraim, on the north of Mount Gaash. 31 Israel served the Lord all the days of Joshua and all the days of the elders who survived Joshua, and had known all the deeds of the Lord which He had done for Israel.
Romans 10:8–13 (LEB) — 8 But what does it say? “The word is near to you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim), 9 that if you confess with your mouth “Jesus is Lord” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth one confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord is Lord of all, who is rich to all who call upon him. 13 For “everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved.”
Luke 11:28 (LEB) — 28 But he said, “On the contrary, blessed are those who hear the word of God and follow it!”
Luke 11:32 (LEB) — 32 The people of Nineveh will stand up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it, because they repented at the proclamation of Jonah, and behold, something greater than Jonah is here!
Ezekiel 18:30–32 (LEB) — 30 “Therefore I will judge you, house of Israel, each one according to his ways,” declares the Lord Yahweh. “Repent and turn around from all of your transgression, and it will not be as a stumbling block of iniquity to you. 31 Throw away from yourselves all of your transgressions that you committed, and make for yourselves a new heart and new spirit, and so why will you die, house of Israel? 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of the dying,” declares the Lord Yahweh. “And so repent and live!”
Zechariah 1:6 (LEB) — 6 However, did not my words and my regulations which I commanded my servants the prophets overtake your ancestors? And they repented and said, ‘Yahweh of hosts planned to do with us according to our ways, and according to our deeds so he has dealt with us.’ ” ’ ”
Matthew 11:21 (LEB) — 21 “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.
Acts 8:22 (LEB) — 22 Therefore repent of this wickedness of yours, and ask the Lord if perhaps the intent of your heart may be forgiven you!”
Acts 17:30 (LEB) — 30 Therefore although God has overlooked the times of ignorance, he now commands all people everywhere to repent,
2 Corinthians 7:9 (LEB) — 9 now I rejoice, not that you were grieved, but that you were grieved to repentance. For you were grieved according to the will of God, so that you suffered loss in no way through us.
2 Corinthians 7:10 (LEB) — 10 For grief according to the will of God brings about a repentance leading to salvation, not to be regretted, but worldly grief brings about death.
2 Peter 3:9 (LEB) — 9 The Lord is not delaying the promise, as some consider slowness, but is being patient toward you, because he does not want any to perish, but all to come to repentance.
Now regarding Paul in Romans
The same Paul writes
Romans 10:17 (NASB 95) — 17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.
Romans 5:1 (NASB 95) — 1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
Romans 9:30 (NASB 95) — 30 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith;
Romans 4:5 (NASB 95) — 5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,
as for pleasing God
WHAT ABOUT ABRAHAM?
The scriptures tells us, Abraham believed God and it was counted to him for righteousness (Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:3, 9, 22; Galatians 3; 6; James 2:23).
Hello, that in itself refutes the Calvinist idea of total inability.
Abraham had integrity of heart (Genesis 20:5-6)
Contra Calvinism/Calvinist-type theology
and a faithful heart towards God(Nehemiah 9:7, 8)
Contra Calvinism/Calvinist-type theology
And Abraham is called the friend of God (2 Chronicles 20:7; Isaiah 41:8; James 2:23).
Both clearly dispute the Calvinist/Calvinist-type theology of all men having a natural hatred toward God.
Throughout scripture God is referred to as the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (Matthew 32:22; Mark 12:26; Luke 20:37; Acts 3:13; 7:32).
Jesus said Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad (John 8:56) and God’s promise to Abraham was to bless all the nations through his seed: Jesus Christ (Acts 3:25; Galatians 3:16).
Abraham is called the father of faith and the father of all who believe (Romans 4:16; Galatians 3:7, 9, 29) and the blessing of Abraham comes on the Gentiles through faith in Jesus Christ (Galatians 3:14).
Abraham was a man of faith who obeyed and feared God (Genesis 22: 12; 26:5; Hebrews 11:8). We see also that Isaac and Jacob were men of faith who feared the Lord and obeyed him as well.
Some contrary examples to total depravity
In Genesis 4, the concept of it is called into question.
After Cain became angry because God had accepted Abel’s offering and had not accepted his offering, God told Cain that sin was knocking at the door and that he should not allow it to rule over him, least it become his master (see Genesis 4:6-7).
God did not deal with Cain as if he were totally depraved. On the contrary, God instructed Cain to rule over this sin that was knocking at the door. The Bible tells us that Cain murdered his brother not because he was totally depraved, but because his deeds were evil and his brother’s was righteous.
For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another. Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother’s righteous. (1 John 3:10-11)
If all humanity were totally depraved, then this would include Abel, yet the apostle John tells us that Abel’s works were righteous. Remember the definition of depravity is a very evil quality or way of behaving: an evil or immoral act. The Bible never describes Abel in this way. On the contrary, the Bible repeatedly describes Abel and his works as righteous.
If Cain and Abel had been totally depraved, Cain would have been unable to rule over the sin knocking at the door, and Abel would not have done that which was righteous.
In the gospels, the Lord Jesus Christ declared that Abel was righteous (Matthew 23:35) and the writer of Hebrews tells us: Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh. (Hebrews 11:4)
No matter how you stack it, the statement, “Abel obtained witness that he was righteous,” completely dismantles any concept of total depravity: a theology that does not take into account the testimony of scripture concerning the real people who lived for God.
If the doctrine of total depravity were true, it would be true of everyone, but what about those in scripture who sought after God?
WHAT ABOUT ENOCH?
The Bible says, Enoch walked with God (Genesis 5:24). The author of Hebrews tells us: By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.(Hebrews 11:4)
Enoch was such a man of God, who pleased God, he never died! Jude tells us that Enoch prophesied of the coming of the Lord as well (Jude 1:14).
WHAT ABOUT NOAH?
The Bible says Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God (Genesis 6:9). Noah was righteous in the sight of the Lord (Genesis 7:1) and in Ezekiel, God mentions Noah along with Daniel and Job as righteous (Ezekiel 14:14, 20).
In the New Testament, the apostle Peter refers to Noah as a preacher of righteousness (2 Peter 2:5) and the writer of Hebrews testifies of Noah’s righteousness as well.
By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear (the fear of the Lord), prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became the heir of the righteousness which is by faith (Hebrews 11:7).
WHAT ABOUT ABRAHAM?
The scriptures tells us, Abraham believed God and it was counted to him for righteousness (Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:3, 9, 22; Galatians 3; 6; James 2:23).
Abraham had integrity of heart (Genesis 20:5-6) and a faithful heart towards God(Nehemiah 9:7, 8) and Abraham is called the friend of God (2 Chronicles 20:7; Isaiah 41:8; James 2:23). Throughout scripture God is referred to as the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (Matthew 32:22; Mark 12:26; Luke 20:37; Acts 3:13; 7:32).
Jesus said Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad (John 8:56) and God’s promise to Abraham was to bless all the nations through his seed: Jesus Christ (Acts 3:25; Galatians 3:16).
Abraham is called the father of faith and the father of all who believe (Romans 4:16; Galatians 3:7, 9, 29) and the blessing of Abraham comes on the Gentiles through faith in Jesus Christ (Galatians 3:14).
Abraham was a man of faith who obeyed and feared God (Genesis 22: 12; 26:5; Hebrews 11:8). We see also that Isaac and Jacob were men of faith who feared the Lord and obeyed him as well.
Also, the apostle Peter refers to Sarah, Abraham’s wife, as an example of holy women, who trusted God, by adorning themselves with a meek and quite spirit (1 Peter 3:4-6).
Lot, Abraham’s nephew, also was a righteous man.
In 2 Peter 2:7-10, the apostle Peter references Lot as an example of how the Lord is able to deliver the godly out of temptations. Peter calls Lot a just and righteous man whom the Lord delivered from the fitly lifestyle of the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrha.
We also read of others in the scriptures, who feared God, before we ever get to Moses and the Exodus of Israel from Egypt. For example the Hebrew midwives feared God and refused to obey the King of Egypt (Exodus 1:17) and because they feared the Lord, many lives of Hebrew children were spared, and God gave the midwives familes (Exodus 1:20-21).
WHAT ABOUT JOSEPH, MOSES, JOSHUA, AND CALEB?
Joseph fled from sin when he was tempted by Potiphar’s wife (Genesis 39:7-12) and forgave his brothers who betrayed him.
Moses is called the man of God (Deuteronomy 33:1; Psalm 90:1; 1 Chronicles 23;14) and was a very humble man (Numbers 12:3) and interceded for Israel seeking God’s forgiveness and favor (Exodus 32:11). Moses feared the Lord (Deuteronomy 9:16-29) and was faithful in God’s house (Numbers 12:7; Hebrews 3:5).
Furthermore, the author of Hebrews says, By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh’s daughter; Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season; esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward. By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible. Through faith he kept the Passover, and the sprinkling of blood, lest he that destroyed the firstborn should touch them. By faith they passed through the Red sea as by dry land: which the Egyptians assaying to do were drowned (Hebrews 11:24-29).
Moses’ successor, Joshua, was chosen by God to lead the children of Israel into the Promised Land because he was a man who sought God, feared God, and trusted God. Also the mantle which God had placed on Moses was transferred to Joshua before he led Israel into the Promised land (Deuteronomy 31:14, 23; 34:9).
During the time of Moses we read of others like Caleb, who along with Joshua were the only 2 among the 12 spies who trusted God and because of their faith they were rewarded by God. In fact God said of the following about Caleb:
But My servant Caleb, because he had another spirit with him, and hath followed Me fully, him will I bring into the land where into he went; and his seed shall possess it (Numbers 14:24).
WHAT ABOUT PHINEHAS AND OTHERS?
We also read of Phinehas, who was of priestly descent. He was zealous for God’s holy justice and turned God’s wrath away from the children of Israel (Numbers 25:7-13) and his zeal for God was counted as righteousness to him and to his generations (Psalm 106:30-31). God gave to him and his descendants a covenant of peace because he was jealous with zeal for the Lord.
Job also was a righteous man (Ezekiel 14:14, 20). In fact the Bible says he was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil (Job 1:1). Job was such a godly man that God even showcased him in the face of Satan (Job 1:8). Job was God’s servant, a man accepted by God (Job 42:7-8) and an example of patience (James 5:10-11) and he learned that God is merciful and compassionate.
As we venture through the scriptures we read of God’s servants such as Gideon, Deborah, Ruth, Naomi, Boaz, Hannah, Samuel, Jonathan, Elijah, Elisha, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Nehemiah, Ezra, Esther and others who feared God, sought him, and were righteous in his sight.
Calvinism/Calvinist-type theology is contrary to scripture.
brightfame52
Active Member
The unregenrate man is in the flesh Rom 8:7-8
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
again you cannot deal with the verses
Deuteronomy 30:11–20 (LEB) — 11 “For this commandment that I am commanding you today is not too wonderful for you, and it is not too far from you. 12 It is not in the heavens so that you might say, ‘Who will go up for us to the heavens and get it for us and cause us to hear it, so that we may do it?’ 13 And it is not beyond the sea, so that you might say, ‘Who will cross for us to the other side of the sea and take it for us and cause us to hear it, so that we may do it?’ 14 But the word is very near you, even in your mouth and in your heart, so that you may do it. 15 “See, I am setting before you today life and prosperity and death and disaster; 16 what I am commanding you today is to love Yahweh your God by going in his ways and by keeping his commandments and his statutes and his regulations, and then you will live, and you will become numerous, and Yahweh your God will bless you in the land where you are going. 17 However, if your heart turns aside and you do not listen and you are lured away and you bow down to other gods and you serve them, 18 I declare to you today that you will certainly perish; you will not extend your time on the land that you are crossing the Jordan to go there to take possession of it. 19 I invoke as a witness against you today the heaven and the earth: life and death I have set before you, blessing and curse. So choose life, so that you may live, you and your offspring, 20 by loving Yahweh your God by listening to his voice and by clinging to him, for he is your life and the length of your days in order for you to live on the land that Yahweh swore to your ancestors, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give to them.”
Joshua 24:15–31 (NASB 95) — 15 If it is disagreeable in your sight to serve the Lord, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve: whether the gods which your fathers served which were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living; but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.” 16 The people answered and said, “Far be it from us that we should forsake the Lord to serve other gods; 17 for the Lord our God is He who brought us and our fathers up out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage, and who did these great signs in our sight and preserved us through all the way in which we went and among all the peoples through whose midst we passed. 18 The Lord drove out from before us all the peoples, even the Amorites who lived in the land. We also will serve the Lord, for He is our God.” 19 Then Joshua said to the people, “You will not be able to serve the Lord, for He is a holy God. He is a jealous God; He will not forgive your transgression or your sins. 20 If you forsake the Lord and serve foreign gods, then He will turn and do you harm and consume you after He has done good to you.” 21 The people said to Joshua, “No, but we will serve the Lord.” 22 Joshua said to the people, “You are witnesses against yourselves that you have chosen for yourselves the Lord, to serve Him.” And they said, “We are witnesses.” 23 “Now therefore, put away the foreign gods which are in your midst, and incline your hearts to the Lord, the God of Israel.” 24 The people said to Joshua, “We will serve the Lord our God and we will obey His voice.” 25 So Joshua made a covenant with the people that day, and made for them a statute and an ordinance in Shechem. 26 And Joshua wrote these words in the book of the law of God; and he took a large stone and set it up there under the oak that was by the sanctuary of the Lord. 27 Joshua said to all the people, “Behold, this stone shall be for a witness against us, for it has heard all the words of the Lord which He spoke to us; thus it shall be for a witness against you, so that you do not deny your God.” 28 Then Joshua dismissed the people, each to his inheritance. 29 It came about after these things that Joshua the son of Nun, the servant of the Lord, died, being one hundred and ten years old. 30 And they buried him in the territory of his inheritance in Timnath-serah, which is in the hill country of Ephraim, on the north of Mount Gaash. 31 Israel served the Lord all the days of Joshua and all the days of the elders who survived Joshua, and had known all the deeds of the Lord which He had done for Israel.
Romans 10:8–13 (LEB) — 8 But what does it say? “The word is near to you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim), 9 that if you confess with your mouth “Jesus is Lord” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth one confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord is Lord of all, who is rich to all who call upon him. 13 For “everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved.”
Luke 11:28 (LEB) — 28 But he said, “On the contrary, blessed are those who hear the word of God and follow it!”
Luke 11:32 (LEB) — 32 The people of Nineveh will stand up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it, because they repented at the proclamation of Jonah, and behold, something greater than Jonah is here!
Ezekiel 18:30–32 (LEB) — 30 “Therefore I will judge you, house of Israel, each one according to his ways,” declares the Lord Yahweh. “Repent and turn around from all of your transgression, and it will not be as a stumbling block of iniquity to you. 31 Throw away from yourselves all of your transgressions that you committed, and make for yourselves a new heart and new spirit, and so why will you die, house of Israel? 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of the dying,” declares the Lord Yahweh. “And so repent and live!”
Zechariah 1:6 (LEB) — 6 However, did not my words and my regulations which I commanded my servants the prophets overtake your ancestors? And they repented and said, ‘Yahweh of hosts planned to do with us according to our ways, and according to our deeds so he has dealt with us.’ ” ’ ”
Matthew 11:21 (LEB) — 21 “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.
Acts 8:22 (LEB) — 22 Therefore repent of this wickedness of yours, and ask the Lord if perhaps the intent of your heart may be forgiven you!”
Acts 17:30 (LEB) — 30 Therefore although God has overlooked the times of ignorance, he now commands all people everywhere to repent,
2 Corinthians 7:9 (LEB) — 9 now I rejoice, not that you were grieved, but that you were grieved to repentance. For you were grieved according to the will of God, so that you suffered loss in no way through us.
2 Corinthians 7:10 (LEB) — 10 For grief according to the will of God brings about a repentance leading to salvation, not to be regretted, but worldly grief brings about death.
2 Peter 3:9 (LEB) — 9 The Lord is not delaying the promise, as some consider slowness, but is being patient toward you, because he does not want any to perish, but all to come to repentance.
Now regarding Paul in Romans
The same Paul writes
Romans 10:17 (NASB 95) — 17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.
Romans 5:1 (NASB 95) — 1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
Romans 9:30 (NASB 95) — 30 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith;
Romans 4:5 (NASB 95) — 5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,
as for pleasing God
WHAT ABOUT ABRAHAM?
The scriptures tells us, Abraham believed God and it was counted to him for righteousness (Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:3, 9, 22; Galatians 3; 6; James 2:23).
Hello, that in itself refutes the Calvinist idea of total inability.
Abraham had integrity of heart (Genesis 20:5-6)
Contra Calvinism/Calvinist-type theology
and a faithful heart towards God(Nehemiah 9:7, 8)
Contra Calvinism/Calvinist-type theology
And Abraham is called the friend of God (2 Chronicles 20:7; Isaiah 41:8; James 2:23).
Both clearly dispute the Calvinist/Calvinist-type theology of all men having a natural hatred toward God.
Throughout scripture God is referred to as the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (Matthew 32:22; Mark 12:26; Luke 20:37; Acts 3:13; 7:32).
Jesus said Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad (John 8:56) and God’s promise to Abraham was to bless all the nations through his seed: Jesus Christ (Acts 3:25; Galatians 3:16).
Abraham is called the father of faith and the father of all who believe (Romans 4:16; Galatians 3:7, 9, 29) and the blessing of Abraham comes on the Gentiles through faith in Jesus Christ (Galatians 3:14).
Abraham was a man of faith who obeyed and feared God (Genesis 22: 12; 26:5; Hebrews 11:8). We see also that Isaac and Jacob were men of faith who feared the Lord and obeyed him as well.
Some contrary examples to total depravity
In Genesis 4, the concept of it is called into question.
After Cain became angry because God had accepted Abel’s offering and had not accepted his offering, God told Cain that sin was knocking at the door and that he should not allow it to rule over him, least it become his master (see Genesis 4:6-7).
God did not deal with Cain as if he were totally depraved. On the contrary, God instructed Cain to rule over this sin that was knocking at the door. The Bible tells us that Cain murdered his brother not because he was totally depraved, but because his deeds were evil and his brother’s was righteous.
For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another. Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother’s righteous. (1 John 3:10-11)
If all humanity were totally depraved, then this would include Abel, yet the apostle John tells us that Abel’s works were righteous. Remember the definition of depravity is a very evil quality or way of behaving: an evil or immoral act. The Bible never describes Abel in this way. On the contrary, the Bible repeatedly describes Abel and his works as righteous.
If Cain and Abel had been totally depraved, Cain would have been unable to rule over the sin knocking at the door, and Abel would not have done that which was righteous.
In the gospels, the Lord Jesus Christ declared that Abel was righteous (Matthew 23:35) and the writer of Hebrews tells us: Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh. (Hebrews 11:4)
No matter how you stack it, the statement, “Abel obtained witness that he was righteous,” completely dismantles any concept of total depravity: a theology that does not take into account the testimony of scripture concerning the real people who lived for God.
If the doctrine of total depravity were true, it would be true of everyone, but what about those in scripture who sought after God?
WHAT ABOUT ENOCH?
The Bible says, Enoch walked with God (Genesis 5:24). The author of Hebrews tells us: By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.(Hebrews 11:4)
Enoch was such a man of God, who pleased God, he never died! Jude tells us that Enoch prophesied of the coming of the Lord as well (Jude 1:14).
WHAT ABOUT NOAH?
The Bible says Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God (Genesis 6:9). Noah was righteous in the sight of the Lord (Genesis 7:1) and in Ezekiel, God mentions Noah along with Daniel and Job as righteous (Ezekiel 14:14, 20).
In the New Testament, the apostle Peter refers to Noah as a preacher of righteousness (2 Peter 2:5) and the writer of Hebrews testifies of Noah’s righteousness as well.
By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear (the fear of the Lord), prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became the heir of the righteousness which is by faith (Hebrews 11:7).
WHAT ABOUT ABRAHAM?
The scriptures tells us, Abraham believed God and it was counted to him for righteousness (Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:3, 9, 22; Galatians 3; 6; James 2:23).
Abraham had integrity of heart (Genesis 20:5-6) and a faithful heart towards God(Nehemiah 9:7, 8) and Abraham is called the friend of God (2 Chronicles 20:7; Isaiah 41:8; James 2:23). Throughout scripture God is referred to as the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (Matthew 32:22; Mark 12:26; Luke 20:37; Acts 3:13; 7:32).
Jesus said Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad (John 8:56) and God’s promise to Abraham was to bless all the nations through his seed: Jesus Christ (Acts 3:25; Galatians 3:16).
Abraham is called the father of faith and the father of all who believe (Romans 4:16; Galatians 3:7, 9, 29) and the blessing of Abraham comes on the Gentiles through faith in Jesus Christ (Galatians 3:14).
Abraham was a man of faith who obeyed and feared God (Genesis 22: 12; 26:5; Hebrews 11:8). We see also that Isaac and Jacob were men of faith who feared the Lord and obeyed him as well.
Also, the apostle Peter refers to Sarah, Abraham’s wife, as an example of holy women, who trusted God, by adorning themselves with a meek and quite spirit (1 Peter 3:4-6).
Lot, Abraham’s nephew, also was a righteous man.
In 2 Peter 2:7-10, the apostle Peter references Lot as an example of how the Lord is able to deliver the godly out of temptations. Peter calls Lot a just and righteous man whom the Lord delivered from the fitly lifestyle of the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrha.
We also read of others in the scriptures, who feared God, before we ever get to Moses and the Exodus of Israel from Egypt. For example the Hebrew midwives feared God and refused to obey the King of Egypt (Exodus 1:17) and because they feared the Lord, many lives of Hebrew children were spared, and God gave the midwives familes (Exodus 1:20-21).
WHAT ABOUT JOSEPH, MOSES, JOSHUA, AND CALEB?
Joseph fled from sin when he was tempted by Potiphar’s wife (Genesis 39:7-12) and forgave his brothers who betrayed him.
Moses is called the man of God (Deuteronomy 33:1; Psalm 90:1; 1 Chronicles 23;14) and was a very humble man (Numbers 12:3) and interceded for Israel seeking God’s forgiveness and favor (Exodus 32:11). Moses feared the Lord (Deuteronomy 9:16-29) and was faithful in God’s house (Numbers 12:7; Hebrews 3:5).
Furthermore, the author of Hebrews says, By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh’s daughter; Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season; esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward. By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible. Through faith he kept the Passover, and the sprinkling of blood, lest he that destroyed the firstborn should touch them. By faith they passed through the Red sea as by dry land: which the Egyptians assaying to do were drowned (Hebrews 11:24-29).
Moses’ successor, Joshua, was chosen by God to lead the children of Israel into the Promised Land because he was a man who sought God, feared God, and trusted God. Also the mantle which God had placed on Moses was transferred to Joshua before he led Israel into the Promised land (Deuteronomy 31:14, 23; 34:9).
During the time of Moses we read of others like Caleb, who along with Joshua were the only 2 among the 12 spies who trusted God and because of their faith they were rewarded by God. In fact God said of the following about Caleb:
But My servant Caleb, because he had another spirit with him, and hath followed Me fully, him will I bring into the land where into he went; and his seed shall possess it (Numbers 14:24).
WHAT ABOUT PHINEHAS AND OTHERS?
We also read of Phinehas, who was of priestly descent. He was zealous for God’s holy justice and turned God’s wrath away from the children of Israel (Numbers 25:7-13) and his zeal for God was counted as righteousness to him and to his generations (Psalm 106:30-31). God gave to him and his descendants a covenant of peace because he was jealous with zeal for the Lord.
Job also was a righteous man (Ezekiel 14:14, 20). In fact the Bible says he was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil (Job 1:1). Job was such a godly man that God even showcased him in the face of Satan (Job 1:8). Job was God’s servant, a man accepted by God (Job 42:7-8) and an example of patience (James 5:10-11) and he learned that God is merciful and compassionate.
As we venture through the scriptures we read of God’s servants such as Gideon, Deborah, Ruth, Naomi, Boaz, Hannah, Samuel, Jonathan, Elijah, Elisha, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Nehemiah, Ezra, Esther and others who feared God, sought him, and were righteous in his sight.
Calvinism/Calvinist-type theology is contrary to scripture.
FreeInChrist
Active Member
@brightfame52 ,
You constantly talk about the flesh and how it is so bad thet it has bno options, suggesting that if it were not for predestination everyone would be damned.
Please explain, if free will is a figment on our imagination how could anyone make a choice , WHEN GOD TOLD THEM TO CHOOSE.
Today we will talk about Bible Verses About Choosing God. Many Christians do not know what this means. Choosing God is about making a deliberate decision to follow Him in our lives. It reflects our spiritual journey and the relationship we want to cultivate with our Maker. As we explore these verses, we can find guidance and encouragement in our journey. We get to see how important it is to make a choice for God, to prioritize His plans over our desires, and to align our actions with His will. Let’s take a moment to reflect as we read these powerful scriptures, knowing that choosing God brings life, hope, and purpose.
And read them all because I know you rarely read past my first paragraph, which tells me you do not want to know the truth...... But here it is straight from the Holy words, in the Holy book of Holy scriptures that you call the bible
biblestudyforyou.com
Let’s carry these truths into our lives, knowing that God is always with us as we choose Him. We can thrive in our faith when we support one another, share God’s love, and build a life that reflects His purpose. May our hearts remain open to His guidance as we continue on this journey together, trusting that God is preparing us for greater things.
In cherishing our decision to choose God, we embrace not just His love, but also His plan for our lives—shining our light brightly in a world that needs it. Let’s nurture this connection and encourage each other as we walk this beautiful path of faith!
You constantly talk about the flesh and how it is so bad thet it has bno options, suggesting that if it were not for predestination everyone would be damned.
Please explain, if free will is a figment on our imagination how could anyone make a choice , WHEN GOD TOLD THEM TO CHOOSE.
Today we will talk about Bible Verses About Choosing God. Many Christians do not know what this means. Choosing God is about making a deliberate decision to follow Him in our lives. It reflects our spiritual journey and the relationship we want to cultivate with our Maker. As we explore these verses, we can find guidance and encouragement in our journey. We get to see how important it is to make a choice for God, to prioritize His plans over our desires, and to align our actions with His will. Let’s take a moment to reflect as we read these powerful scriptures, knowing that choosing God brings life, hope, and purpose.
And read them all because I know you rarely read past my first paragraph, which tells me you do not want to know the truth...... But here it is straight from the Holy words, in the Holy book of Holy scriptures that you call the bible
30 Powerful Bible Verses About Choosing God (Full Commentary) - Bible Study For You
Today we will talk about Bible Verses About Choosing God. Many Christians do not know what this means. Choosing God is about making a deliberate decision to
biblestudyforyou.com
Bible Verses About Choosing God
Choosing to Follow God
In our lives, we often face choices that may lead us away from God or push us closer to Him. The journey of faith begins with our decision to follow God wholeheartedly. This act of choosing God reflects our understanding of His love and grace. As we select the paths of righteousness and love, we can hear His voice guiding us. We can be assured that when we choose God, we are choosing a relationship filled with hope and joy. It’s important for us to remember that every choice we make either brings us closer to Him or takes us away. Let’s think about how our decisions reflect our commitment to choosing God daily.Luke 9:23
John 14:6
Joshua 24:15
Matthew 7:13-14
Isaiah 30:21
Trusting in God’s Plan
Choosing God means trusting in His perfect plan for our lives. God has a beautiful blueprint for each of us, and when we lean on Him, we can find peace even in difficult times. It’s reassuring to know that God’s plans are far greater than our own. We often think we know what’s best, but when we surrender to His direction, we open ourselves up to His wisdom and understanding. Our journey may not always be smooth, but trusting in His plan helps us navigate through life’s challenges with faith. By trusting God, we choose His promises, blessings, and purposes over our doubts and fears.Proverbs 3:5-6
Jeremiah 29:11
Psalms 37:5
Isaiah 26:3
Romans 8:28
The Power of Prayer
Choosing God involves the power of prayer. Prayer is our direct line to God, allowing us to deepen our relationship with Him. When we make prayer a priority in our lives, we open the door for God’s voice to guide us. It’s our time to share our fears, dreams, and gratitude with Him, and in return, we receive His comfort and wisdom. God delights in our prayers, and through them, we can choose to invite Him into our daily lives. Prayer becomes a vital part of our decision-making as we seek His guidance in choosing the right path.Philippians 4:6-7
1 Thessalonians 5:16-18
James 1:5
Mark 11:24
Psalms 145:18
Walking in Faith
Choosing God also means walking in faith. This faith is essential to our spiritual journey as it helps us take steps toward the future without knowing what’s ahead. Faith is about believing in what we can’t see and trusting that God is working all things together for our good. By choosing to walk in faith, we develop resilience and strengthen our relationship with God. It assures us that we are not alone in our journey because He walks with us. Our faith empowers us to make choices that align with God’s word, leading to a fulfilling life grounded in His truth.2 Corinthians 5:7
Hebrews 11:1
Romans walk walk 8:31
Ephesians 2:8
Psalms 119:105
Choosing Love and Kindness
When we choose God, we also choose love and kindness. God’s heart is filled with love, and choosing Him means adopting His ways in our interactions with others. Love is a beautiful theme in the Bible, demonstrating that our relationships with people reflect our relationship with God. We are called to practice kindness, compassion, and forgiveness, which are essential characteristics of God. As we choose love and kindness, we align ourselves with the teachings of Jesus and become His hands and feet in this world. Acts of love and kindness can be transformative, making a big difference in the lives of those around us.1 John 4:19
Colossians 3:14
John 15:12
Ephesians 4:32
Psalms 136:1
Living with Purpose
Choosing God is closely associated with living a life of purpose. Each of us is called to fulfill a unique role in God’s plan. When we choose to follow Him, we open ourselves to identifying and pursuing our God-given purpose. This journey of purpose brings fulfillment and meaning as we use our talents and gifts to serve others. Recognizing that we are created for a purpose encourages us to seek God’s guidance in every aspect of our lives. When we align our ambitions with His plans, we embark on a journey that affects not only us but those around us. Living with purpose reminds us that our lives matter and that we can make a positive impact in the world.Ephesians 2:10
Proverbs 16:3
Ecclesiastes 3:1
Colossians 3:23-24
Matthew 5:16
The Importance of Community
Choosing God is not just a personal journey; it’s also about being part of a community. We were made for connection, and together we can encourage each other in our faith. In the Bible, we see numerous examples where fellowship and community strengthened believers. Choosing God within a community allows us to share our experiences, learn from one another, and support each other through ups and downs. We can be the hands and feet of Jesus when we work together, showing love and grace. The body of Christ is stronger when we love and choose one another, reflecting God’s love to the world.Hebrews 10:24-25
Galatians 6:2
Acts 2:44-47
Proverbs 27:17
1 Corinthians 12:12
Repenting and Renewing Our Hearts
Choosing God also requires us to repent and renew our hearts. We are all imperfect beings, but God offers us the grace to start afresh each day. When we choose God, we acknowledge our need to turn away from our sins and seek His forgiveness. This process of repentance brings healing and restoration, opening our hearts to His love. Choosing God means allowing Him to work within us, transforming our thoughts and actions, and helping us become more like Him. The renewal of our hearts is a continuous journey of seeking His presence and aligning our lives with His Word, so we can reflect His goodness and mercy to the world.1 John 1:9
Romans 12:2
Acts 3:19
Ezekiel 36:26
Psalm 51:10
Final Thoughts
As we’ve explored these Bible verses about choosing God, we have seen how vital our choices are in deepening our relationship with Him. Each scripture encourages us to trust His plan, walk in faith, practice love, and engage with our community. We must remember that choosing God is not just a one-time decision, but a daily commitment to following Him and His ways. By repenting and renewing our hearts, staying grounded in prayer, and pursuing our God-given purpose, we can fully experience the abundant life He promises us.Let’s carry these truths into our lives, knowing that God is always with us as we choose Him. We can thrive in our faith when we support one another, share God’s love, and build a life that reflects His purpose. May our hearts remain open to His guidance as we continue on this journey together, trusting that God is preparing us for greater things.
In cherishing our decision to choose God, we embrace not just His love, but also His plan for our lives—shining our light brightly in a world that needs it. Let’s nurture this connection and encourage each other as we walk this beautiful path of faith!
brightfame52
Active Member
And again, it doesn't matter what God commands, the fact remains Rom 8:7-8
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
The word law here νόμος:
anything established, anything received by usage, a custom, a law, a command
- of any law whatsoever
- a law or rule producing a state approved of God
The natural man in the flesh is not subject to the law or command of God, and neither indeed can be.
So the command in Duet 30 or Acts 17:30 the man in the flesh cannot subject himself to obey God, sorry
Scripture states and examples otherwise
Deuteronomy 30:11–20 (LEB) — 11 “For this commandment that I am commanding you today is not too wonderful for you, and it is not too far from you. 12 It is not in the heavens so that you might say, ‘Who will go up for us to the heavens and get it for us and cause us to hear it, so that we may do it?’ 13 And it is not beyond the sea, so that you might say, ‘Who will cross for us to the other side of the sea and take it for us and cause us to hear it, so that we may do it?’ 14 But the word is very near you, even in your mouth and in your heart, so that you may do it. 15 “See, I am setting before you today life and prosperity and death and disaster; 16 what I am commanding you today is to love Yahweh your God by going in his ways and by keeping his commandments and his statutes and his regulations, and then you will live, and you will become numerous, and Yahweh your God will bless you in the land where you are going. 17 However, if your heart turns aside and you do not listen and you are lured away and you bow down to other gods and you serve them, 18 I declare to you today that you will certainly perish; you will not extend your time on the land that you are crossing the Jordan to go there to take possession of it. 19 I invoke as a witness against you today the heaven and the earth: life and death I have set before you, blessing and curse. So choose life, so that you may live, you and your offspring, 20 by loving Yahweh your God by listening to his voice and by clinging to him, for he is your life and the length of your days in order for you to live on the land that Yahweh swore to your ancestors, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give to them.”
Joshua 24:15–31 (NASB 95) — 15 If it is disagreeable in your sight to serve the Lord, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve: whether the gods which your fathers served which were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living; but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.” 16 The people answered and said, “Far be it from us that we should forsake the Lord to serve other gods; 17 for the Lord our God is He who brought us and our fathers up out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage, and who did these great signs in our sight and preserved us through all the way in which we went and among all the peoples through whose midst we passed. 18 The Lord drove out from before us all the peoples, even the Amorites who lived in the land. We also will serve the Lord, for He is our God.” 19 Then Joshua said to the people, “You will not be able to serve the Lord, for He is a holy God. He is a jealous God; He will not forgive your transgression or your sins. 20 If you forsake the Lord and serve foreign gods, then He will turn and do you harm and consume you after He has done good to you.” 21 The people said to Joshua, “No, but we will serve the Lord.” 22 Joshua said to the people, “You are witnesses against yourselves that you have chosen for yourselves the Lord, to serve Him.” And they said, “We are witnesses.” 23 “Now therefore, put away the foreign gods which are in your midst, and incline your hearts to the Lord, the God of Israel.” 24 The people said to Joshua, “We will serve the Lord our God and we will obey His voice.” 25 So Joshua made a covenant with the people that day, and made for them a statute and an ordinance in Shechem. 26 And Joshua wrote these words in the book of the law of God; and he took a large stone and set it up there under the oak that was by the sanctuary of the Lord. 27 Joshua said to all the people, “Behold, this stone shall be for a witness against us, for it has heard all the words of the Lord which He spoke to us; thus it shall be for a witness against you, so that you do not deny your God.” 28 Then Joshua dismissed the people, each to his inheritance. 29 It came about after these things that Joshua the son of Nun, the servant of the Lord, died, being one hundred and ten years old. 30 And they buried him in the territory of his inheritance in Timnath-serah, which is in the hill country of Ephraim, on the north of Mount Gaash. 31 Israel served the Lord all the days of Joshua and all the days of the elders who survived Joshua, and had known all the deeds of the Lord which He had done for Israel.
Romans 10:8–13 (LEB) — 8 But what does it say? “The word is near to you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim), 9 that if you confess with your mouth “Jesus is Lord” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth one confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord is Lord of all, who is rich to all who call upon him. 13 For “everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved.”
Luke 11:28 (LEB) — 28 But he said, “On the contrary, blessed are those who hear the word of God and follow it!”
Luke 11:32 (LEB) — 32 The people of Nineveh will stand up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it, because they repented at the proclamation of Jonah, and behold, something greater than Jonah is here!
Ezekiel 18:30–32 (LEB) — 30 “Therefore I will judge you, house of Israel, each one according to his ways,” declares the Lord Yahweh. “Repent and turn around from all of your transgression, and it will not be as a stumbling block of iniquity to you. 31 Throw away from yourselves all of your transgressions that you committed, and make for yourselves a new heart and new spirit, and so why will you die, house of Israel? 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of the dying,” declares the Lord Yahweh. “And so repent and live!”
Zechariah 1:6 (LEB) — 6 However, did not my words and my regulations which I commanded my servants the prophets overtake your ancestors? And they repented and said, ‘Yahweh of hosts planned to do with us according to our ways, and according to our deeds so he has dealt with us.’ ” ’ ”
Matthew 11:21 (LEB) — 21 “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.
Acts 8:22 (LEB) — 22 Therefore repent of this wickedness of yours, and ask the Lord if perhaps the intent of your heart may be forgiven you!”
Acts 17:30 (LEB) — 30 Therefore although God has overlooked the times of ignorance, he now commands all people everywhere to repent,
2 Corinthians 7:9 (LEB) — 9 now I rejoice, not that you were grieved, but that you were grieved to repentance. For you were grieved according to the will of God, so that you suffered loss in no way through us.
2 Corinthians 7:10 (LEB) — 10 For grief according to the will of God brings about a repentance leading to salvation, not to be regretted, but worldly grief brings about death.
2 Peter 3:9 (LEB) — 9 The Lord is not delaying the promise, as some consider slowness, but is being patient toward you, because he does not want any to perish, but all to come to repentance.
Now regarding Paul in Romans
The same Paul writes
Romans 10:17 (NASB 95) — 17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.
Romans 5:1 (NASB 95) — 1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
Romans 9:30 (NASB 95) — 30 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith;
Romans 4:5 (NASB 95) — 5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,
as for pleasing God
WHAT ABOUT ABRAHAM?
The scriptures tells us, Abraham believed God and it was counted to him for righteousness (Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:3, 9, 22; Galatians 3; 6; James 2:23).
Hello, that in itself refutes the Calvinist idea of total inability.
Abraham had integrity of heart (Genesis 20:5-6)
Contra Calvinism/Calvinist-type theology
and a faithful heart towards God(Nehemiah 9:7, 8)
Contra Calvinism/Calvinist-type theology
And Abraham is called the friend of God (2 Chronicles 20:7; Isaiah 41:8; James 2:23).
Both clearly dispute the Calvinist/Calvinist-type theology of all men having a natural hatred toward God.
Throughout scripture God is referred to as the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (Matthew 32:22; Mark 12:26; Luke 20:37; Acts 3:13; 7:32).
Jesus said Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad (John 8:56) and God’s promise to Abraham was to bless all the nations through his seed: Jesus Christ (Acts 3:25; Galatians 3:16).
Abraham is called the father of faith and the father of all who believe (Romans 4:16; Galatians 3:7, 9, 29) and the blessing of Abraham comes on the Gentiles through faith in Jesus Christ (Galatians 3:14).
Abraham was a man of faith who obeyed and feared God (Genesis 22: 12; 26:5; Hebrews 11:8). We see also that Isaac and Jacob were men of faith who feared the Lord and obeyed him as well.
Some contrary examples to total depravity
In Genesis 4, the concept of it is called into question.
After Cain became angry because God had accepted Abel’s offering and had not accepted his offering, God told Cain that sin was knocking at the door and that he should not allow it to rule over him, least it become his master (see Genesis 4:6-7).
God did not deal with Cain as if he were totally depraved. On the contrary, God instructed Cain to rule over this sin that was knocking at the door. The Bible tells us that Cain murdered his brother not because he was totally depraved, but because his deeds were evil and his brother’s was righteous.
For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another. Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother’s righteous. (1 John 3:10-11)
If all humanity were totally depraved, then this would include Abel, yet the apostle John tells us that Abel’s works were righteous. Remember the definition of depravity is a very evil quality or way of behaving: an evil or immoral act. The Bible never describes Abel in this way. On the contrary, the Bible repeatedly describes Abel and his works as righteous.
If Cain and Abel had been totally depraved, Cain would have been unable to rule over the sin knocking at the door, and Abel would not have done that which was righteous.
In the gospels, the Lord Jesus Christ declared that Abel was righteous (Matthew 23:35) and the writer of Hebrews tells us: Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh. (Hebrews 11:4)
No matter how you stack it, the statement, “Abel obtained witness that he was righteous,” completely dismantles any concept of total depravity: a theology that does not take into account the testimony of scripture concerning the real people who lived for God.
If the doctrine of total depravity were true, it would be true of everyone, but what about those in scripture who sought after God?
WHAT ABOUT ENOCH?
The Bible says, Enoch walked with God (Genesis 5:24). The author of Hebrews tells us: By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.(Hebrews 11:4)
Enoch was such a man of God, who pleased God, he never died! Jude tells us that Enoch prophesied of the coming of the Lord as well (Jude 1:14).
WHAT ABOUT NOAH?
The Bible says Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God (Genesis 6:9). Noah was righteous in the sight of the Lord (Genesis 7:1) and in Ezekiel, God mentions Noah along with Daniel and Job as righteous (Ezekiel 14:14, 20).
In the New Testament, the apostle Peter refers to Noah as a preacher of righteousness (2 Peter 2:5) and the writer of Hebrews testifies of Noah’s righteousness as well.
By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear (the fear of the Lord), prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became the heir of the righteousness which is by faith (Hebrews 11:7).
WHAT ABOUT ABRAHAM?
The scriptures tells us, Abraham believed God and it was counted to him for righteousness (Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:3, 9, 22; Galatians 3; 6; James 2:23).
Abraham had integrity of heart (Genesis 20:5-6) and a faithful heart towards God(Nehemiah 9:7, 8) and Abraham is called the friend of God (2 Chronicles 20:7; Isaiah 41:8; James 2:23). Throughout scripture God is referred to as the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (Matthew 32:22; Mark 12:26; Luke 20:37; Acts 3:13; 7:32).
Jesus said Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad (John 8:56) and God’s promise to Abraham was to bless all the nations through his seed: Jesus Christ (Acts 3:25; Galatians 3:16).
Abraham is called the father of faith and the father of all who believe (Romans 4:16; Galatians 3:7, 9, 29) and the blessing of Abraham comes on the Gentiles through faith in Jesus Christ (Galatians 3:14).
Abraham was a man of faith who obeyed and feared God (Genesis 22: 12; 26:5; Hebrews 11:8). We see also that Isaac and Jacob were men of faith who feared the Lord and obeyed him as well.
Also, the apostle Peter refers to Sarah, Abraham’s wife, as an example of holy women, who trusted God, by adorning themselves with a meek and quite spirit (1 Peter 3:4-6).
Lot, Abraham’s nephew, also was a righteous man.
In 2 Peter 2:7-10, the apostle Peter references Lot as an example of how the Lord is able to deliver the godly out of temptations. Peter calls Lot a just and righteous man whom the Lord delivered from the fitly lifestyle of the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrha.
We also read of others in the scriptures, who feared God, before we ever get to Moses and the Exodus of Israel from Egypt. For example the Hebrew midwives feared God and refused to obey the King of Egypt (Exodus 1:17) and because they feared the Lord, many lives of Hebrew children were spared, and God gave the midwives familes (Exodus 1:20-21).
WHAT ABOUT JOSEPH, MOSES, JOSHUA, AND CALEB?
Joseph fled from sin when he was tempted by Potiphar’s wife (Genesis 39:7-12) and forgave his brothers who betrayed him.
Moses is called the man of God (Deuteronomy 33:1; Psalm 90:1; 1 Chronicles 23;14) and was a very humble man (Numbers 12:3) and interceded for Israel seeking God’s forgiveness and favor (Exodus 32:11). Moses feared the Lord (Deuteronomy 9:16-29) and was faithful in God’s house (Numbers 12:7; Hebrews 3:5).
Furthermore, the author of Hebrews says, By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh’s daughter; Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season; esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward. By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible. Through faith he kept the Passover, and the sprinkling of blood, lest he that destroyed the firstborn should touch them. By faith they passed through the Red sea as by dry land: which the Egyptians assaying to do were drowned (Hebrews 11:24-29).
Moses’ successor, Joshua, was chosen by God to lead the children of Israel into the Promised Land because he was a man who sought God, feared God, and trusted God. Also the mantle which God had placed on Moses was transferred to Joshua before he led Israel into the Promised land (Deuteronomy 31:14, 23; 34:9).
During the time of Moses we read of others like Caleb, who along with Joshua were the only 2 among the 12 spies who trusted God and because of their faith they were rewarded by God. In fact God said of the following about Caleb:
But My servant Caleb, because he had another spirit with him, and hath followed Me fully, him will I bring into the land where into he went; and his seed shall possess it (Numbers 14:24).
WHAT ABOUT PHINEHAS AND OTHERS?
We also read of Phinehas, who was of priestly descent. He was zealous for God’s holy justice and turned God’s wrath away from the children of Israel (Numbers 25:7-13) and his zeal for God was counted as righteousness to him and to his generations (Psalm 106:30-31). God gave to him and his descendants a covenant of peace because he was jealous with zeal for the Lord.
Job also was a righteous man (Ezekiel 14:14, 20). In fact the Bible says he was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil (Job 1:1). Job was such a godly man that God even showcased him in the face of Satan (Job 1:8). Job was God’s servant, a man accepted by God (Job 42:7-8) and an example of patience (James 5:10-11) and he learned that God is merciful and compassionate.
As we venture through the scriptures we read of God’s servants such as Gideon, Deborah, Ruth, Naomi, Boaz, Hannah, Samuel, Jonathan, Elijah, Elisha, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Nehemiah, Ezra, Esther and others who feared God, sought him, and were righteous in his sight.
all these contradict your view
You ignore the fact some are stated of having repented
You ignore the fact that we see those declared righteous
You ignore the fact we read of those having sought, feared, and trusted God
We read of man having pleased God
We read Israel had served God all the days of Joshua
In Romans 10:8–13 we read of man's ability to believe “The word is near to you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim)
verified in various places
Acts 18:8 Crispus, the leader of the synagogue, believed in the Lord with all his household, and many of the Corinthians when they heard were believing and being baptized
Acts 14:1 In Iconium they entered the synagogue of the Jews together, and spoke in such a manner that a large number of people believed, both of Jews and of Greeks.
Acts 17:11–12 Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so. Therefore many of them believed, along with a number of prominent Greek women and men.
1 Thessalonians 2:13 (NASB 95) — 13 For this reason we also constantly thank God that when you received the word of God which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men, but for what it really is, the word of God, which also performs its work in you who believe.
brightfame52
Active Member
No it doesnt.
You ignored the scriptures
Deuteronomy 30:11–20 (LEB) — 11 “For this commandment that I am commanding you today is not too wonderful for you, and it is not too far from you. 12 It is not in the heavens so that you might say, ‘Who will go up for us to the heavens and get it for us and cause us to hear it, so that we may do it?’ 13 And it is not beyond the sea, so that you might say, ‘Who will cross for us to the other side of the sea and take it for us and cause us to hear it, so that we may do it?’ 14 But the word is very near you, even in your mouth and in your heart, so that you may do it. 15 “See, I am setting before you today life and prosperity and death and disaster; 16 what I am commanding you today is to love Yahweh your God by going in his ways and by keeping his commandments and his statutes and his regulations, and then you will live, and you will become numerous, and Yahweh your God will bless you in the land where you are going. 17 However, if your heart turns aside and you do not listen and you are lured away and you bow down to other gods and you serve them, 18 I declare to you today that you will certainly perish; you will not extend your time on the land that you are crossing the Jordan to go there to take possession of it. 19 I invoke as a witness against you today the heaven and the earth: life and death I have set before you, blessing and curse. So choose life, so that you may live, you and your offspring, 20 by loving Yahweh your God by listening to his voice and by clinging to him, for he is your life and the length of your days in order for you to live on the land that Yahweh swore to your ancestors, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give to them.”
Joshua 24:15–31 (NASB 95) — 15 If it is disagreeable in your sight to serve the Lord, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve: whether the gods which your fathers served which were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living; but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.” 16 The people answered and said, “Far be it from us that we should forsake the Lord to serve other gods; 17 for the Lord our God is He who brought us and our fathers up out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage, and who did these great signs in our sight and preserved us through all the way in which we went and among all the peoples through whose midst we passed. 18 The Lord drove out from before us all the peoples, even the Amorites who lived in the land. We also will serve the Lord, for He is our God.” 19 Then Joshua said to the people, “You will not be able to serve the Lord, for He is a holy God. He is a jealous God; He will not forgive your transgression or your sins. 20 If you forsake the Lord and serve foreign gods, then He will turn and do you harm and consume you after He has done good to you.” 21 The people said to Joshua, “No, but we will serve the Lord.” 22 Joshua said to the people, “You are witnesses against yourselves that you have chosen for yourselves the Lord, to serve Him.” And they said, “We are witnesses.” 23 “Now therefore, put away the foreign gods which are in your midst, and incline your hearts to the Lord, the God of Israel.” 24 The people said to Joshua, “We will serve the Lord our God and we will obey His voice.” 25 So Joshua made a covenant with the people that day, and made for them a statute and an ordinance in Shechem. 26 And Joshua wrote these words in the book of the law of God; and he took a large stone and set it up there under the oak that was by the sanctuary of the Lord. 27 Joshua said to all the people, “Behold, this stone shall be for a witness against us, for it has heard all the words of the Lord which He spoke to us; thus it shall be for a witness against you, so that you do not deny your God.” 28 Then Joshua dismissed the people, each to his inheritance. 29 It came about after these things that Joshua the son of Nun, the servant of the Lord, died, being one hundred and ten years old. 30 And they buried him in the territory of his inheritance in Timnath-serah, which is in the hill country of Ephraim, on the north of Mount Gaash. 31 Israel served the Lord all the days of Joshua and all the days of the elders who survived Joshua, and had known all the deeds of the Lord which He had done for Israel.
Romans 10:8–13 (LEB) — 8 But what does it say? “The word is near to you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim), 9 that if you confess with your mouth “Jesus is Lord” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth one confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord is Lord of all, who is rich to all who call upon him. 13 For “everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved.”
Luke 11:28 (LEB) — 28 But he said, “On the contrary, blessed are those who hear the word of God and follow it!”
Luke 11:32 (LEB) — 32 The people of Nineveh will stand up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it, because they repented at the proclamation of Jonah, and behold, something greater than Jonah is here!
Ezekiel 18:30–32 (LEB) — 30 “Therefore I will judge you, house of Israel, each one according to his ways,” declares the Lord Yahweh. “Repent and turn around from all of your transgression, and it will not be as a stumbling block of iniquity to you. 31 Throw away from yourselves all of your transgressions that you committed, and make for yourselves a new heart and new spirit, and so why will you die, house of Israel? 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of the dying,” declares the Lord Yahweh. “And so repent and live!”
Zechariah 1:6 (LEB) — 6 However, did not my words and my regulations which I commanded my servants the prophets overtake your ancestors? And they repented and said, ‘Yahweh of hosts planned to do with us according to our ways, and according to our deeds so he has dealt with us.’ ” ’ ”
Matthew 11:21 (LEB) — 21 “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.
Acts 8:22 (LEB) — 22 Therefore repent of this wickedness of yours, and ask the Lord if perhaps the intent of your heart may be forgiven you!”
Acts 17:30 (LEB) — 30 Therefore although God has overlooked the times of ignorance, he now commands all people everywhere to repent,
2 Corinthians 7:9 (LEB) — 9 now I rejoice, not that you were grieved, but that you were grieved to repentance. For you were grieved according to the will of God, so that you suffered loss in no way through us.
2 Corinthians 7:10 (LEB) — 10 For grief according to the will of God brings about a repentance leading to salvation, not to be regretted, but worldly grief brings about death.
2 Peter 3:9 (LEB) — 9 The Lord is not delaying the promise, as some consider slowness, but is being patient toward you, because he does not want any to perish, but all to come to repentance.
Now regarding Paul in Romans
The same Paul writes
Romans 10:17 (NASB 95) — 17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.
Romans 5:1 (NASB 95) — 1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
Romans 9:30 (NASB 95) — 30 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith;
Romans 4:5 (NASB 95) — 5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,
as for pleasing God
WHAT ABOUT ABRAHAM?
The scriptures tells us, Abraham believed God and it was counted to him for righteousness (Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:3, 9, 22; Galatians 3; 6; James 2:23).
Hello, that in itself refutes the Calvinist idea of total inability.
Abraham had integrity of heart (Genesis 20:5-6)
Contra Calvinism/Calvinist-type theology
and a faithful heart towards God(Nehemiah 9:7, 8)
Contra Calvinism/Calvinist-type theology
And Abraham is called the friend of God (2 Chronicles 20:7; Isaiah 41:8; James 2:23).
Both clearly dispute the Calvinist/Calvinist-type theology of all men having a natural hatred toward God.
Throughout scripture God is referred to as the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (Matthew 32:22; Mark 12:26; Luke 20:37; Acts 3:13; 7:32).
Jesus said Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad (John 8:56) and God’s promise to Abraham was to bless all the nations through his seed: Jesus Christ (Acts 3:25; Galatians 3:16).
Abraham is called the father of faith and the father of all who believe (Romans 4:16; Galatians 3:7, 9, 29) and the blessing of Abraham comes on the Gentiles through faith in Jesus Christ (Galatians 3:14).
Abraham was a man of faith who obeyed and feared God (Genesis 22: 12; 26:5; Hebrews 11:8). We see also that Isaac and Jacob were men of faith who feared the Lord and obeyed him as well.
Some contrary examples to total depravity
In Genesis 4, the concept of it is called into question.
After Cain became angry because God had accepted Abel’s offering and had not accepted his offering, God told Cain that sin was knocking at the door and that he should not allow it to rule over him, least it become his master (see Genesis 4:6-7).
God did not deal with Cain as if he were totally depraved. On the contrary, God instructed Cain to rule over this sin that was knocking at the door. The Bible tells us that Cain murdered his brother not because he was totally depraved, but because his deeds were evil and his brother’s was righteous.
For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another. Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother’s righteous. (1 John 3:10-11)
If all humanity were totally depraved, then this would include Abel, yet the apostle John tells us that Abel’s works were righteous. Remember the definition of depravity is a very evil quality or way of behaving: an evil or immoral act. The Bible never describes Abel in this way. On the contrary, the Bible repeatedly describes Abel and his works as righteous.
If Cain and Abel had been totally depraved, Cain would have been unable to rule over the sin knocking at the door, and Abel would not have done that which was righteous.
In the gospels, the Lord Jesus Christ declared that Abel was righteous (Matthew 23:35) and the writer of Hebrews tells us: Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh. (Hebrews 11:4)
No matter how you stack it, the statement, “Abel obtained witness that he was righteous,” completely dismantles any concept of total depravity: a theology that does not take into account the testimony of scripture concerning the real people who lived for God.
If the doctrine of total depravity were true, it would be true of everyone, but what about those in scripture who sought after God?
WHAT ABOUT ENOCH?
The Bible says, Enoch walked with God (Genesis 5:24). The author of Hebrews tells us: By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.(Hebrews 11:4)
Enoch was such a man of God, who pleased God, he never died! Jude tells us that Enoch prophesied of the coming of the Lord as well (Jude 1:14).
WHAT ABOUT NOAH?
The Bible says Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God (Genesis 6:9). Noah was righteous in the sight of the Lord (Genesis 7:1) and in Ezekiel, God mentions Noah along with Daniel and Job as righteous (Ezekiel 14:14, 20).
In the New Testament, the apostle Peter refers to Noah as a preacher of righteousness (2 Peter 2:5) and the writer of Hebrews testifies of Noah’s righteousness as well.
By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear (the fear of the Lord), prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became the heir of the righteousness which is by faith (Hebrews 11:7).
WHAT ABOUT ABRAHAM?
The scriptures tells us, Abraham believed God and it was counted to him for righteousness (Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:3, 9, 22; Galatians 3; 6; James 2:23).
Abraham had integrity of heart (Genesis 20:5-6) and a faithful heart towards God(Nehemiah 9:7, 8) and Abraham is called the friend of God (2 Chronicles 20:7; Isaiah 41:8; James 2:23). Throughout scripture God is referred to as the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (Matthew 32:22; Mark 12:26; Luke 20:37; Acts 3:13; 7:32).
Jesus said Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad (John 8:56) and God’s promise to Abraham was to bless all the nations through his seed: Jesus Christ (Acts 3:25; Galatians 3:16).
Abraham is called the father of faith and the father of all who believe (Romans 4:16; Galatians 3:7, 9, 29) and the blessing of Abraham comes on the Gentiles through faith in Jesus Christ (Galatians 3:14).
Abraham was a man of faith who obeyed and feared God (Genesis 22: 12; 26:5; Hebrews 11:8). We see also that Isaac and Jacob were men of faith who feared the Lord and obeyed him as well.
Also, the apostle Peter refers to Sarah, Abraham’s wife, as an example of holy women, who trusted God, by adorning themselves with a meek and quite spirit (1 Peter 3:4-6).
Lot, Abraham’s nephew, also was a righteous man.
In 2 Peter 2:7-10, the apostle Peter references Lot as an example of how the Lord is able to deliver the godly out of temptations. Peter calls Lot a just and righteous man whom the Lord delivered from the fitly lifestyle of the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrha.
We also read of others in the scriptures, who feared God, before we ever get to Moses and the Exodus of Israel from Egypt. For example the Hebrew midwives feared God and refused to obey the King of Egypt (Exodus 1:17) and because they feared the Lord, many lives of Hebrew children were spared, and God gave the midwives familes (Exodus 1:20-21).
WHAT ABOUT JOSEPH, MOSES, JOSHUA, AND CALEB?
Joseph fled from sin when he was tempted by Potiphar’s wife (Genesis 39:7-12) and forgave his brothers who betrayed him.
Moses is called the man of God (Deuteronomy 33:1; Psalm 90:1; 1 Chronicles 23;14) and was a very humble man (Numbers 12:3) and interceded for Israel seeking God’s forgiveness and favor (Exodus 32:11). Moses feared the Lord (Deuteronomy 9:16-29) and was faithful in God’s house (Numbers 12:7; Hebrews 3:5).
Furthermore, the author of Hebrews says, By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh’s daughter; Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season; esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward. By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible. Through faith he kept the Passover, and the sprinkling of blood, lest he that destroyed the firstborn should touch them. By faith they passed through the Red sea as by dry land: which the Egyptians assaying to do were drowned (Hebrews 11:24-29).
Moses’ successor, Joshua, was chosen by God to lead the children of Israel into the Promised Land because he was a man who sought God, feared God, and trusted God. Also the mantle which God had placed on Moses was transferred to Joshua before he led Israel into the Promised land (Deuteronomy 31:14, 23; 34:9).
During the time of Moses we read of others like Caleb, who along with Joshua were the only 2 among the 12 spies who trusted God and because of their faith they were rewarded by God. In fact God said of the following about Caleb:
But My servant Caleb, because he had another spirit with him, and hath followed Me fully, him will I bring into the land where into he went; and his seed shall possess it (Numbers 14:24).
WHAT ABOUT PHINEHAS AND OTHERS?
We also read of Phinehas, who was of priestly descent. He was zealous for God’s holy justice and turned God’s wrath away from the children of Israel (Numbers 25:7-13) and his zeal for God was counted as righteousness to him and to his generations (Psalm 106:30-31). God gave to him and his descendants a covenant of peace because he was jealous with zeal for the Lord.
Job also was a righteous man (Ezekiel 14:14, 20). In fact the Bible says he was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil (Job 1:1). Job was such a godly man that God even showcased him in the face of Satan (Job 1:8). Job was God’s servant, a man accepted by God (Job 42:7-8) and an example of patience (James 5:10-11) and he learned that God is merciful and compassionate.
As we venture through the scriptures we read of God’s servants such as Gideon, Deborah, Ruth, Naomi, Boaz, Hannah, Samuel, Jonathan, Elijah, Elisha, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Nehemiah, Ezra, Esther and others who feared God, sought him, and were righteous in his sight.
all these contradict your view
You ignore the fact some are stated of having repented
You ignore the fact that we see those declared righteous
You ignore the fact we read of those having sought, feared, and trusted God
We read of man having pleased God
We read Israel had served God all the days of Joshua
In Romans 10:8–13 we read of man's ability to believe “The word is near to you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim)
verified in various places
Acts 18:8 Crispus, the leader of the synagogue, believed in the Lord with all his household, and many of the Corinthians when they heard were believing and being baptized
Acts 14:1 In Iconium they entered the synagogue of the Jews together, and spoke in such a manner that a large number of people believed, both of Jews and of Greeks.
Acts 17:11–12 Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so. Therefore many of them believed, along with a number of prominent Greek women and men.
1 Thessalonians 2:13 (NASB 95) — 13 For this reason we also constantly thank God that when you received the word of God which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men, but for what it really is, the word of God, which also performs its work in you who believe.
and reference Rom 8:7-8
The carnal mind. This is the same expression as occurs in ver. 6 (τὸ φρόνημα τῆς σαρκός). It does not mean the mind itself, the intellect, or the will; it does not suppose that the mind or soul is physically depraved, or opposed to God; but it means that the minding of the things of the flesh, giving to them supreme attention, is hostility against God; and involves the sinner in a controversy with him, and hence leads to death and woe. This passage should not be alleged in proof that the soul is physically depraved, but merely that where there is a supreme regard to the flesh there is hostility to God. It does not directly prove the doctrine of universal depravity; but it proves only that where such attention exists to the corrupt desires of the soul, there is hostility to God. It is indeed implied that that supreme regard to the flesh exists every where by nature, but this is not expressly affirmed. For the object of the apostle here is not to teach the doctrine of depravity, but to show that where such depravity in fact exists, it involves the sinner in a fearful controversy with God.<sup>[1]</sup>
<sup>[1]</sup> Albert Barnes, Notes on the New Testament: Romans (ed. Robert Frew; London: Blackie & Son, 1884–1885), 173.
Yes it does
Scripture states and examples otherwise
Deuteronomy 30:11–20 (LEB) — 11 “For this commandment that I am commanding you today is not too wonderful for you, and it is not too far from you. 12 It is not in the heavens so that you might say, ‘Who will go up for us to the heavens and get it for us and cause us to hear it, so that we may do it?’ 13 And it is not beyond the sea, so that you might say, ‘Who will cross for us to the other side of the sea and take it for us and cause us to hear it, so that we may do it?’ 14 But the word is very near you, even in your mouth and in your heart, so that you may do it. 15 “See, I am setting before you today life and prosperity and death and disaster; 16 what I am commanding you today is to love Yahweh your God by going in his ways and by keeping his commandments and his statutes and his regulations, and then you will live, and you will become numerous, and Yahweh your God will bless you in the land where you are going. 17 However, if your heart turns aside and you do not listen and you are lured away and you bow down to other gods and you serve them, 18 I declare to you today that you will certainly perish; you will not extend your time on the land that you are crossing the Jordan to go there to take possession of it. 19 I invoke as a witness against you today the heaven and the earth: life and death I have set before you, blessing and curse. So choose life, so that you may live, you and your offspring, 20 by loving Yahweh your God by listening to his voice and by clinging to him, for he is your life and the length of your days in order for you to live on the land that Yahweh swore to your ancestors, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give to them.”
Joshua 24:15–31 (NASB 95) — 15 If it is disagreeable in your sight to serve the Lord, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve: whether the gods which your fathers served which were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living; but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.” 16 The people answered and said, “Far be it from us that we should forsake the Lord to serve other gods; 17 for the Lord our God is He who brought us and our fathers up out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage, and who did these great signs in our sight and preserved us through all the way in which we went and among all the peoples through whose midst we passed. 18 The Lord drove out from before us all the peoples, even the Amorites who lived in the land. We also will serve the Lord, for He is our God.” 19 Then Joshua said to the people, “You will not be able to serve the Lord, for He is a holy God. He is a jealous God; He will not forgive your transgression or your sins. 20 If you forsake the Lord and serve foreign gods, then He will turn and do you harm and consume you after He has done good to you.” 21 The people said to Joshua, “No, but we will serve the Lord.” 22 Joshua said to the people, “You are witnesses against yourselves that you have chosen for yourselves the Lord, to serve Him.” And they said, “We are witnesses.” 23 “Now therefore, put away the foreign gods which are in your midst, and incline your hearts to the Lord, the God of Israel.” 24 The people said to Joshua, “We will serve the Lord our God and we will obey His voice.” 25 So Joshua made a covenant with the people that day, and made for them a statute and an ordinance in Shechem. 26 And Joshua wrote these words in the book of the law of God; and he took a large stone and set it up there under the oak that was by the sanctuary of the Lord. 27 Joshua said to all the people, “Behold, this stone shall be for a witness against us, for it has heard all the words of the Lord which He spoke to us; thus it shall be for a witness against you, so that you do not deny your God.” 28 Then Joshua dismissed the people, each to his inheritance. 29 It came about after these things that Joshua the son of Nun, the servant of the Lord, died, being one hundred and ten years old. 30 And they buried him in the territory of his inheritance in Timnath-serah, which is in the hill country of Ephraim, on the north of Mount Gaash. 31 Israel served the Lord all the days of Joshua and all the days of the elders who survived Joshua, and had known all the deeds of the Lord which He had done for Israel.
Romans 10:8–13 (LEB) — 8 But what does it say? “The word is near to you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim), 9 that if you confess with your mouth “Jesus is Lord” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth one confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord is Lord of all, who is rich to all who call upon him. 13 For “everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved.”
Luke 11:28 (LEB) — 28 But he said, “On the contrary, blessed are those who hear the word of God and follow it!”
Luke 11:32 (LEB) — 32 The people of Nineveh will stand up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it, because they repented at the proclamation of Jonah, and behold, something greater than Jonah is here!
Ezekiel 18:30–32 (LEB) — 30 “Therefore I will judge you, house of Israel, each one according to his ways,” declares the Lord Yahweh. “Repent and turn around from all of your transgression, and it will not be as a stumbling block of iniquity to you. 31 Throw away from yourselves all of your transgressions that you committed, and make for yourselves a new heart and new spirit, and so why will you die, house of Israel? 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of the dying,” declares the Lord Yahweh. “And so repent and live!”
Zechariah 1:6 (LEB) — 6 However, did not my words and my regulations which I commanded my servants the prophets overtake your ancestors? And they repented and said, ‘Yahweh of hosts planned to do with us according to our ways, and according to our deeds so he has dealt with us.’ ” ’ ”
Matthew 11:21 (LEB) — 21 “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.
Acts 8:22 (LEB) — 22 Therefore repent of this wickedness of yours, and ask the Lord if perhaps the intent of your heart may be forgiven you!”
Acts 17:30 (LEB) — 30 Therefore although God has overlooked the times of ignorance, he now commands all people everywhere to repent,
2 Corinthians 7:9 (LEB) — 9 now I rejoice, not that you were grieved, but that you were grieved to repentance. For you were grieved according to the will of God, so that you suffered loss in no way through us.
2 Corinthians 7:10 (LEB) — 10 For grief according to the will of God brings about a repentance leading to salvation, not to be regretted, but worldly grief brings about death.
2 Peter 3:9 (LEB) — 9 The Lord is not delaying the promise, as some consider slowness, but is being patient toward you, because he does not want any to perish, but all to come to repentance.
Now regarding Paul in Romans
The same Paul writes
Romans 10:17 (NASB 95) — 17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.
Romans 5:1 (NASB 95) — 1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
Romans 9:30 (NASB 95) — 30 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith;
Romans 4:5 (NASB 95) — 5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,
as for pleasing God
WHAT ABOUT ABRAHAM?
The scriptures tells us, Abraham believed God and it was counted to him for righteousness (Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:3, 9, 22; Galatians 3; 6; James 2:23).
Hello, that in itself refutes the Calvinist idea of total inability.
Abraham had integrity of heart (Genesis 20:5-6)
Contra Calvinism/Calvinist-type theology
and a faithful heart towards God(Nehemiah 9:7, 8)
Contra Calvinism/Calvinist-type theology
And Abraham is called the friend of God (2 Chronicles 20:7; Isaiah 41:8; James 2:23).
Both clearly dispute the Calvinist/Calvinist-type theology of all men having a natural hatred toward God.
Throughout scripture God is referred to as the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (Matthew 32:22; Mark 12:26; Luke 20:37; Acts 3:13; 7:32).
Jesus said Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad (John 8:56) and God’s promise to Abraham was to bless all the nations through his seed: Jesus Christ (Acts 3:25; Galatians 3:16).
Abraham is called the father of faith and the father of all who believe (Romans 4:16; Galatians 3:7, 9, 29) and the blessing of Abraham comes on the Gentiles through faith in Jesus Christ (Galatians 3:14).
Abraham was a man of faith who obeyed and feared God (Genesis 22: 12; 26:5; Hebrews 11:8). We see also that Isaac and Jacob were men of faith who feared the Lord and obeyed him as well.
Some contrary examples to total depravity
In Genesis 4, the concept of it is called into question.
After Cain became angry because God had accepted Abel’s offering and had not accepted his offering, God told Cain that sin was knocking at the door and that he should not allow it to rule over him, least it become his master (see Genesis 4:6-7).
God did not deal with Cain as if he were totally depraved. On the contrary, God instructed Cain to rule over this sin that was knocking at the door. The Bible tells us that Cain murdered his brother not because he was totally depraved, but because his deeds were evil and his brother’s was righteous.
For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another. Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother’s righteous. (1 John 3:10-11)
If all humanity were totally depraved, then this would include Abel, yet the apostle John tells us that Abel’s works were righteous. Remember the definition of depravity is a very evil quality or way of behaving: an evil or immoral act. The Bible never describes Abel in this way. On the contrary, the Bible repeatedly describes Abel and his works as righteous.
If Cain and Abel had been totally depraved, Cain would have been unable to rule over the sin knocking at the door, and Abel would not have done that which was righteous.
In the gospels, the Lord Jesus Christ declared that Abel was righteous (Matthew 23:35) and the writer of Hebrews tells us: Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh. (Hebrews 11:4)
No matter how you stack it, the statement, “Abel obtained witness that he was righteous,” completely dismantles any concept of total depravity: a theology that does not take into account the testimony of scripture concerning the real people who lived for God.
If the doctrine of total depravity were true, it would be true of everyone, but what about those in scripture who sought after God?
WHAT ABOUT ENOCH?
The Bible says, Enoch walked with God (Genesis 5:24). The author of Hebrews tells us: By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.(Hebrews 11:4)
Enoch was such a man of God, who pleased God, he never died! Jude tells us that Enoch prophesied of the coming of the Lord as well (Jude 1:14).
WHAT ABOUT NOAH?
The Bible says Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God (Genesis 6:9). Noah was righteous in the sight of the Lord (Genesis 7:1) and in Ezekiel, God mentions Noah along with Daniel and Job as righteous (Ezekiel 14:14, 20).
In the New Testament, the apostle Peter refers to Noah as a preacher of righteousness (2 Peter 2:5) and the writer of Hebrews testifies of Noah’s righteousness as well.
By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear (the fear of the Lord), prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became the heir of the righteousness which is by faith (Hebrews 11:7).
WHAT ABOUT ABRAHAM?
The scriptures tells us, Abraham believed God and it was counted to him for righteousness (Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:3, 9, 22; Galatians 3; 6; James 2:23).
Abraham had integrity of heart (Genesis 20:5-6) and a faithful heart towards God(Nehemiah 9:7, 8) and Abraham is called the friend of God (2 Chronicles 20:7; Isaiah 41:8; James 2:23). Throughout scripture God is referred to as the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (Matthew 32:22; Mark 12:26; Luke 20:37; Acts 3:13; 7:32).
Jesus said Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad (John 8:56) and God’s promise to Abraham was to bless all the nations through his seed: Jesus Christ (Acts 3:25; Galatians 3:16).
Abraham is called the father of faith and the father of all who believe (Romans 4:16; Galatians 3:7, 9, 29) and the blessing of Abraham comes on the Gentiles through faith in Jesus Christ (Galatians 3:14).
Abraham was a man of faith who obeyed and feared God (Genesis 22: 12; 26:5; Hebrews 11:8). We see also that Isaac and Jacob were men of faith who feared the Lord and obeyed him as well.
Also, the apostle Peter refers to Sarah, Abraham’s wife, as an example of holy women, who trusted God, by adorning themselves with a meek and quite spirit (1 Peter 3:4-6).
Lot, Abraham’s nephew, also was a righteous man.
In 2 Peter 2:7-10, the apostle Peter references Lot as an example of how the Lord is able to deliver the godly out of temptations. Peter calls Lot a just and righteous man whom the Lord delivered from the fitly lifestyle of the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrha.
We also read of others in the scriptures, who feared God, before we ever get to Moses and the Exodus of Israel from Egypt. For example the Hebrew midwives feared God and refused to obey the King of Egypt (Exodus 1:17) and because they feared the Lord, many lives of Hebrew children were spared, and God gave the midwives familes (Exodus 1:20-21).
WHAT ABOUT JOSEPH, MOSES, JOSHUA, AND CALEB?
Joseph fled from sin when he was tempted by Potiphar’s wife (Genesis 39:7-12) and forgave his brothers who betrayed him.
Moses is called the man of God (Deuteronomy 33:1; Psalm 90:1; 1 Chronicles 23;14) and was a very humble man (Numbers 12:3) and interceded for Israel seeking God’s forgiveness and favor (Exodus 32:11). Moses feared the Lord (Deuteronomy 9:16-29) and was faithful in God’s house (Numbers 12:7; Hebrews 3:5).
Furthermore, the author of Hebrews says, By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh’s daughter; Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season; esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward. By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible. Through faith he kept the Passover, and the sprinkling of blood, lest he that destroyed the firstborn should touch them. By faith they passed through the Red sea as by dry land: which the Egyptians assaying to do were drowned (Hebrews 11:24-29).
Moses’ successor, Joshua, was chosen by God to lead the children of Israel into the Promised Land because he was a man who sought God, feared God, and trusted God. Also the mantle which God had placed on Moses was transferred to Joshua before he led Israel into the Promised land (Deuteronomy 31:14, 23; 34:9).
During the time of Moses we read of others like Caleb, who along with Joshua were the only 2 among the 12 spies who trusted God and because of their faith they were rewarded by God. In fact God said of the following about Caleb:
But My servant Caleb, because he had another spirit with him, and hath followed Me fully, him will I bring into the land where into he went; and his seed shall possess it (Numbers 14:24).
WHAT ABOUT PHINEHAS AND OTHERS?
We also read of Phinehas, who was of priestly descent. He was zealous for God’s holy justice and turned God’s wrath away from the children of Israel (Numbers 25:7-13) and his zeal for God was counted as righteousness to him and to his generations (Psalm 106:30-31). God gave to him and his descendants a covenant of peace because he was jealous with zeal for the Lord.
Job also was a righteous man (Ezekiel 14:14, 20). In fact the Bible says he was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil (Job 1:1). Job was such a godly man that God even showcased him in the face of Satan (Job 1:8). Job was God’s servant, a man accepted by God (Job 42:7-8) and an example of patience (James 5:10-11) and he learned that God is merciful and compassionate.
As we venture through the scriptures we read of God’s servants such as Gideon, Deborah, Ruth, Naomi, Boaz, Hannah, Samuel, Jonathan, Elijah, Elisha, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Nehemiah, Ezra, Esther and others who feared God, sought him, and were righteous in his sight.
all these contradict your view
You ignore the fact some are stated of having repented
You ignore the fact that we see those declared righteous
You ignore the fact we read of those having sought, feared, and trusted God
We read of man having pleased God
We read Israel had served God all the days of Joshua
In Romans 10:8–13 we read of man's ability to believe “The word is near to you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim)
verified in various places
Acts 18:8 Crispus, the leader of the synagogue, believed in the Lord with all his household, and many of the Corinthians when they heard were believing and being baptized
Acts 14:1 In Iconium they entered the synagogue of the Jews together, and spoke in such a manner that a large number of people believed, both of Jews and of Greeks.
Acts 17:11–12 Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so. Therefore many of them believed, along with a number of prominent Greek women and men.
1 Thessalonians 2:13 (NASB 95) — 13 For this reason we also constantly thank God that when you received the word of God which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men, but for what it really is, the word of God, which also performs its work in you who believe.
PS regarding Rom 8:7-8
The carnal mind. This is the same expression as occurs in ver. 6 (τὸ φρόνημα τῆς σαρκός). It does not mean the mind itself, the intellect, or the will; it does not suppose that the mind or soul is physically depraved, or opposed to God; but it means that the minding of the things of the flesh, giving to them supreme attention, is hostility against God; and involves the sinner in a controversy with him, and hence leads to death and woe. This passage should not be alleged in proof that the soul is physically depraved, but merely that where there is a supreme regard to the flesh there is hostility to God. It does not directly prove the doctrine of universal depravity; but it proves only that where such attention exists to the corrupt desires of the soul, there is hostility to God. It is indeed implied that that supreme regard to the flesh exists every where by nature, but this is not expressly affirmed. For the object of the apostle here is not to teach the doctrine of depravity, but to show that where such depravity in fact exists, it involves the sinner in a fearful controversy with God.
Albert Barnes, Notes on the New Testament: Romans (ed. Robert Frew; London: Blackie & Son, 1884–1885), 173.
brightfame52
Active Member
Them in the flesh cannot please God and cannot be subject to the command of God Rom 8:7-8
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. Are the unregenerate in the flesh ?
brightfame52
Active Member
Are the unregenerate in the flesh ? Yes or no
Not all
You ignored this
You ignored the scriptures
Deuteronomy 30:11–20 (LEB) — 11 “For this commandment that I am commanding you today is not too wonderful for you, and it is not too far from you. 12 It is not in the heavens so that you might say, ‘Who will go up for us to the heavens and get it for us and cause us to hear it, so that we may do it?’ 13 And it is not beyond the sea, so that you might say, ‘Who will cross for us to the other side of the sea and take it for us and cause us to hear it, so that we may do it?’ 14 But the word is very near you, even in your mouth and in your heart, so that you may do it. 15 “See, I am setting before you today life and prosperity and death and disaster; 16 what I am commanding you today is to love Yahweh your God by going in his ways and by keeping his commandments and his statutes and his regulations, and then you will live, and you will become numerous, and Yahweh your God will bless you in the land where you are going. 17 However, if your heart turns aside and you do not listen and you are lured away and you bow down to other gods and you serve them, 18 I declare to you today that you will certainly perish; you will not extend your time on the land that you are crossing the Jordan to go there to take possession of it. 19 I invoke as a witness against you today the heaven and the earth: life and death I have set before you, blessing and curse. So choose life, so that you may live, you and your offspring, 20 by loving Yahweh your God by listening to his voice and by clinging to him, for he is your life and the length of your days in order for you to live on the land that Yahweh swore to your ancestors, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give to them.”
Joshua 24:15–31 (NASB 95) — 15 If it is disagreeable in your sight to serve the Lord, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve: whether the gods which your fathers served which were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living; but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.” 16 The people answered and said, “Far be it from us that we should forsake the Lord to serve other gods; 17 for the Lord our God is He who brought us and our fathers up out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage, and who did these great signs in our sight and preserved us through all the way in which we went and among all the peoples through whose midst we passed. 18 The Lord drove out from before us all the peoples, even the Amorites who lived in the land. We also will serve the Lord, for He is our God.” 19 Then Joshua said to the people, “You will not be able to serve the Lord, for He is a holy God. He is a jealous God; He will not forgive your transgression or your sins. 20 If you forsake the Lord and serve foreign gods, then He will turn and do you harm and consume you after He has done good to you.” 21 The people said to Joshua, “No, but we will serve the Lord.” 22 Joshua said to the people, “You are witnesses against yourselves that you have chosen for yourselves the Lord, to serve Him.” And they said, “We are witnesses.” 23 “Now therefore, put away the foreign gods which are in your midst, and incline your hearts to the Lord, the God of Israel.” 24 The people said to Joshua, “We will serve the Lord our God and we will obey His voice.” 25 So Joshua made a covenant with the people that day, and made for them a statute and an ordinance in Shechem. 26 And Joshua wrote these words in the book of the law of God; and he took a large stone and set it up there under the oak that was by the sanctuary of the Lord. 27 Joshua said to all the people, “Behold, this stone shall be for a witness against us, for it has heard all the words of the Lord which He spoke to us; thus it shall be for a witness against you, so that you do not deny your God.” 28 Then Joshua dismissed the people, each to his inheritance. 29 It came about after these things that Joshua the son of Nun, the servant of the Lord, died, being one hundred and ten years old. 30 And they buried him in the territory of his inheritance in Timnath-serah, which is in the hill country of Ephraim, on the north of Mount Gaash. 31 Israel served the Lord all the days of Joshua and all the days of the elders who survived Joshua, and had known all the deeds of the Lord which He had done for Israel.
Romans 10:8–13 (LEB) — 8 But what does it say? “The word is near to you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim), 9 that if you confess with your mouth “Jesus is Lord” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth one confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord is Lord of all, who is rich to all who call upon him. 13 For “everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved.”
Luke 11:28 (LEB) — 28 But he said, “On the contrary, blessed are those who hear the word of God and follow it!”
Luke 11:32 (LEB) — 32 The people of Nineveh will stand up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it, because they repented at the proclamation of Jonah, and behold, something greater than Jonah is here!
Ezekiel 18:30–32 (LEB) — 30 “Therefore I will judge you, house of Israel, each one according to his ways,” declares the Lord Yahweh. “Repent and turn around from all of your transgression, and it will not be as a stumbling block of iniquity to you. 31 Throw away from yourselves all of your transgressions that you committed, and make for yourselves a new heart and new spirit, and so why will you die, house of Israel? 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of the dying,” declares the Lord Yahweh. “And so repent and live!”
Zechariah 1:6 (LEB) — 6 However, did not my words and my regulations which I commanded my servants the prophets overtake your ancestors? And they repented and said, ‘Yahweh of hosts planned to do with us according to our ways, and according to our deeds so he has dealt with us.’ ” ’ ”
Matthew 11:21 (LEB) — 21 “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.
Acts 8:22 (LEB) — 22 Therefore repent of this wickedness of yours, and ask the Lord if perhaps the intent of your heart may be forgiven you!”
Acts 17:30 (LEB) — 30 Therefore although God has overlooked the times of ignorance, he now commands all people everywhere to repent,
2 Corinthians 7:9 (LEB) — 9 now I rejoice, not that you were grieved, but that you were grieved to repentance. For you were grieved according to the will of God, so that you suffered loss in no way through us.
2 Corinthians 7:10 (LEB) — 10 For grief according to the will of God brings about a repentance leading to salvation, not to be regretted, but worldly grief brings about death.
2 Peter 3:9 (LEB) — 9 The Lord is not delaying the promise, as some consider slowness, but is being patient toward you, because he does not want any to perish, but all to come to repentance.
Now regarding Paul in Romans
The same Paul writes
Romans 10:17 (NASB 95) — 17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.
Romans 5:1 (NASB 95) — 1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
Romans 9:30 (NASB 95) — 30 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith;
Romans 4:5 (NASB 95) — 5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,
as for pleasing God
WHAT ABOUT ABRAHAM?
The scriptures tells us, Abraham believed God and it was counted to him for righteousness (Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:3, 9, 22; Galatians 3; 6; James 2:23).
Hello, that in itself refutes the Calvinist idea of total inability.
Abraham had integrity of heart (Genesis 20:5-6)
Contra Calvinism/Calvinist-type theology
and a faithful heart towards God(Nehemiah 9:7, 8)
Contra Calvinism/Calvinist-type theology
And Abraham is called the friend of God (2 Chronicles 20:7; Isaiah 41:8; James 2:23).
Both clearly dispute the Calvinist/Calvinist-type theology of all men having a natural hatred toward God.
Throughout scripture God is referred to as the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (Matthew 32:22; Mark 12:26; Luke 20:37; Acts 3:13; 7:32).
Jesus said Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad (John 8:56) and God’s promise to Abraham was to bless all the nations through his seed: Jesus Christ (Acts 3:25; Galatians 3:16).
Abraham is called the father of faith and the father of all who believe (Romans 4:16; Galatians 3:7, 9, 29) and the blessing of Abraham comes on the Gentiles through faith in Jesus Christ (Galatians 3:14).
Abraham was a man of faith who obeyed and feared God (Genesis 22: 12; 26:5; Hebrews 11:8). We see also that Isaac and Jacob were men of faith who feared the Lord and obeyed him as well.
Some contrary examples to total depravity
In Genesis 4, the concept of it is called into question.
After Cain became angry because God had accepted Abel’s offering and had not accepted his offering, God told Cain that sin was knocking at the door and that he should not allow it to rule over him, least it become his master (see Genesis 4:6-7).
God did not deal with Cain as if he were totally depraved. On the contrary, God instructed Cain to rule over this sin that was knocking at the door. The Bible tells us that Cain murdered his brother not because he was totally depraved, but because his deeds were evil and his brother’s was righteous.
For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another. Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother’s righteous. (1 John 3:10-11)
If all humanity were totally depraved, then this would include Abel, yet the apostle John tells us that Abel’s works were righteous. Remember the definition of depravity is a very evil quality or way of behaving: an evil or immoral act. The Bible never describes Abel in this way. On the contrary, the Bible repeatedly describes Abel and his works as righteous.
If Cain and Abel had been totally depraved, Cain would have been unable to rule over the sin knocking at the door, and Abel would not have done that which was righteous.
In the gospels, the Lord Jesus Christ declared that Abel was righteous (Matthew 23:35) and the writer of Hebrews tells us: Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh. (Hebrews 11:4)
No matter how you stack it, the statement, “Abel obtained witness that he was righteous,” completely dismantles any concept of total depravity: a theology that does not take into account the testimony of scripture concerning the real people who lived for God.
If the doctrine of total depravity were true, it would be true of everyone, but what about those in scripture who sought after God?
WHAT ABOUT ENOCH?
The Bible says, Enoch walked with God (Genesis 5:24). The author of Hebrews tells us: By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.(Hebrews 11:4)
Enoch was such a man of God, who pleased God, he never died! Jude tells us that Enoch prophesied of the coming of the Lord as well (Jude 1:14).
WHAT ABOUT NOAH?
The Bible says Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God (Genesis 6:9). Noah was righteous in the sight of the Lord (Genesis 7:1) and in Ezekiel, God mentions Noah along with Daniel and Job as righteous (Ezekiel 14:14, 20).
In the New Testament, the apostle Peter refers to Noah as a preacher of righteousness (2 Peter 2:5) and the writer of Hebrews testifies of Noah’s righteousness as well.
By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear (the fear of the Lord), prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became the heir of the righteousness which is by faith (Hebrews 11:7).
WHAT ABOUT ABRAHAM?
The scriptures tells us, Abraham believed God and it was counted to him for righteousness (Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:3, 9, 22; Galatians 3; 6; James 2:23).
Abraham had integrity of heart (Genesis 20:5-6) and a faithful heart towards God(Nehemiah 9:7, 8) and Abraham is called the friend of God (2 Chronicles 20:7; Isaiah 41:8; James 2:23). Throughout scripture God is referred to as the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (Matthew 32:22; Mark 12:26; Luke 20:37; Acts 3:13; 7:32).
Jesus said Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad (John 8:56) and God’s promise to Abraham was to bless all the nations through his seed: Jesus Christ (Acts 3:25; Galatians 3:16).
Abraham is called the father of faith and the father of all who believe (Romans 4:16; Galatians 3:7, 9, 29) and the blessing of Abraham comes on the Gentiles through faith in Jesus Christ (Galatians 3:14).
Abraham was a man of faith who obeyed and feared God (Genesis 22: 12; 26:5; Hebrews 11:8). We see also that Isaac and Jacob were men of faith who feared the Lord and obeyed him as well.
Also, the apostle Peter refers to Sarah, Abraham’s wife, as an example of holy women, who trusted God, by adorning themselves with a meek and quite spirit (1 Peter 3:4-6).
Lot, Abraham’s nephew, also was a righteous man.
In 2 Peter 2:7-10, the apostle Peter references Lot as an example of how the Lord is able to deliver the godly out of temptations. Peter calls Lot a just and righteous man whom the Lord delivered from the fitly lifestyle of the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrha.
We also read of others in the scriptures, who feared God, before we ever get to Moses and the Exodus of Israel from Egypt. For example the Hebrew midwives feared God and refused to obey the King of Egypt (Exodus 1:17) and because they feared the Lord, many lives of Hebrew children were spared, and God gave the midwives familes (Exodus 1:20-21).
WHAT ABOUT JOSEPH, MOSES, JOSHUA, AND CALEB?
Joseph fled from sin when he was tempted by Potiphar’s wife (Genesis 39:7-12) and forgave his brothers who betrayed him.
Moses is called the man of God (Deuteronomy 33:1; Psalm 90:1; 1 Chronicles 23;14) and was a very humble man (Numbers 12:3) and interceded for Israel seeking God’s forgiveness and favor (Exodus 32:11). Moses feared the Lord (Deuteronomy 9:16-29) and was faithful in God’s house (Numbers 12:7; Hebrews 3:5).
Furthermore, the author of Hebrews says, By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh’s daughter; Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season; esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward. By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible. Through faith he kept the Passover, and the sprinkling of blood, lest he that destroyed the firstborn should touch them. By faith they passed through the Red sea as by dry land: which the Egyptians assaying to do were drowned (Hebrews 11:24-29).
Moses’ successor, Joshua, was chosen by God to lead the children of Israel into the Promised Land because he was a man who sought God, feared God, and trusted God. Also the mantle which God had placed on Moses was transferred to Joshua before he led Israel into the Promised land (Deuteronomy 31:14, 23; 34:9).
During the time of Moses we read of others like Caleb, who along with Joshua were the only 2 among the 12 spies who trusted God and because of their faith they were rewarded by God. In fact God said of the following about Caleb:
But My servant Caleb, because he had another spirit with him, and hath followed Me fully, him will I bring into the land where into he went; and his seed shall possess it (Numbers 14:24).
WHAT ABOUT PHINEHAS AND OTHERS?
We also read of Phinehas, who was of priestly descent. He was zealous for God’s holy justice and turned God’s wrath away from the children of Israel (Numbers 25:7-13) and his zeal for God was counted as righteousness to him and to his generations (Psalm 106:30-31). God gave to him and his descendants a covenant of peace because he was jealous with zeal for the Lord.
Job also was a righteous man (Ezekiel 14:14, 20). In fact the Bible says he was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil (Job 1:1). Job was such a godly man that God even showcased him in the face of Satan (Job 1:8). Job was God’s servant, a man accepted by God (Job 42:7-8) and an example of patience (James 5:10-11) and he learned that God is merciful and compassionate.
As we venture through the scriptures we read of God’s servants such as Gideon, Deborah, Ruth, Naomi, Boaz, Hannah, Samuel, Jonathan, Elijah, Elisha, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Nehemiah, Ezra, Esther and others who feared God, sought him, and were righteous in his sight.
all these contradict your view
You ignore the fact some are stated of having repented
You ignore the fact that we see those declared righteous
You ignore the fact we read of those having sought, feared, and trusted God
We read of man having pleased God
We read Israel had served God all the days of Joshua
In Romans 10:8–13 we read of man's ability to believe “The word is near to you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim)
verified in various places
Acts 18:8 Crispus, the leader of the synagogue, believed in the Lord with all his household, and many of the Corinthians when they heard were believing and being baptized
Acts 14:1 In Iconium they entered the synagogue of the Jews together, and spoke in such a manner that a large number of people believed, both of Jews and of Greeks.
Acts 17:11–12 Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so. Therefore many of them believed, along with a number of prominent Greek women and men.
1 Thessalonians 2:13 (NASB 95) — 13 For this reason we also constantly thank God that when you received the word of God which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men, but for what it really is, the word of God, which also performs its work in you who believe.
and reference Rom 8:7-8
The carnal mind. This is the same expression as occurs in ver. 6 (τὸ φρόνημα τῆς σαρκός). It does not mean the mind itself, the intellect, or the will; it does not suppose that the mind or soul is physically depraved, or opposed to God; but it means that the minding of the things of the flesh, giving to them supreme attention, is hostility against God; and involves the sinner in a controversy with him, and hence leads to death and woe. This passage should not be alleged in proof that the soul is physically depraved, but merely that where there is a supreme regard to the flesh there is hostility to God. It does not directly prove the doctrine of universal depravity; but it proves only that where such attention exists to the corrupt desires of the soul, there is hostility to God. It is indeed implied that that supreme regard to the flesh exists every where by nature, but this is not expressly affirmed. For the object of the apostle here is not to teach the doctrine of depravity, but to show that where such depravity in fact exists, it involves the sinner in a fearful controversy with God.<sup>[1]</sup>
<sup>[1]</sup> Albert Barnes, Notes on the New Testament: Romans (ed. Robert Frew; London: Blackie & Son, 1884–1885), 173.
Not all are controlled by fleshly desire
Gen 6:9 These are the generations of Noah. Noah was a righteous man, without defect in his generations. Noah walked with God.
Gen 7:1 Then Yahweh said to Noah, “Go—you and all your household—into the ark, for I have seen you are righteous before me in this generation.
Job 1:1 There was a man in the land of Uz whose name was Job. That man was blameless and upright and God-fearing and turning away from evil.
Luke 1:6 And they were both righteous in the sight of God, living blamelessly in all the commandments and regulations of the Lord.
Gen 15:6 And he believed in Yahweh, and he reckoned it to him as righteousness.
Hab 2:4 Look! His spirit within him is puffed up; it is not upright. But the righteous shall live by his faithfulness.
Rom 4:3 For what does the scripture say? “And Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him for righteousness.”
James 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “And Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him for righteousness,” and he was called God’s friend.
Ps 1:6 for Yahweh knows the way of the righteous, but the way of the wicked will perish.
Prov 10:25 With the passing of the tempest, there is no wickedness, but the righteous have a foundation forever.
Psalm 34:15–22 (LEB) — 15 The eyes of Yahweh are toward the righteous, and his ears toward their cry for help. 16 The face of Yahweh is against evildoers, to cut off the remembrance of them from the earth. 17 They cry out and Yahweh hears and delivers them from all of their troubles. 18 Yahweh is near to those who are heartbroken and saves those who are crushed in spirit. 19 Many are the distresses of the righteous, but Yahweh delivers him out of them all. 20 He protects all his bones; not one of them is broken. 21 Evil will slay the wicked, and those who hate the righteous will incur guilt. 22 Yahweh redeems the life of his servants, and none who take refuge in him will incur guilt.
Mal 3:18 You will return and see the difference between the righteous and the wicked, between the one who serves God and the one who does not serve him.
Ps 11:5 Yahweh tests the righteous, but the wicked and the lover of violence his soul hates.
Prov 3:33The curse of Yahweh is on the house of the wicked, and the abode of the righteous ones he blesses.
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