The "secret" Rapture theory

Revelation 20:4,5
“And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. "This is" the first resurrection.
Red, you are unfortunately stuck on thinking that the "first resurrection" is only spiritual in nature. That is impossible, because the thousand years comes to an end with that "first resurrection". Does anybody catch the irony of me, a Preterist, trying to convince Red, a non-Preterist, about the "first resurrection" being a BODILY resurrection of the dead in AD 33 and not a spiritual resurrection?? Christ was raised BODILY from the dead - not spiritually raised - because His Spirit never died. "Christ the FIRST-fruits" defines the "FIRST resurrection" from the dead.

The "thrones" in Rev. 20:4 with judgment given to them was the twelve disciples. Christ had told them in Matt. 19:28 that "in the regeneration, when the Son of Man shall sit in the throne of His glory" (Christ's resurrection), "ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel." This was just after Christ's ascension to heaven when the twelve disciples started exercising the ability to judge doctrinal and practical matters in the early church in Jerusalem (like the question of circumcision, the care of widows, the dispersion of charitable donations, the judgment of Ananias and Saphira, choosing deacons, laying hands on new pastors and evangelists, etc.). This first-century context of those twelve disciples on twelve "thrones" anchors the discussion of the "FIRST resurrection" in Rev. 20:5 to the day of Christ's resurrection in AD 33 along with that "remnant of the dead" (the Matthew 27:52-53 resurrected saints).

The literal "thousand years" began long ago with Solomon's temple foundation stone being laid down in 968 / 967 BC. It ended with the "FIRST resurrection" of Christ (the "chief cornerstone") and that "remnant of the dead" which came to life again as being that "FIRST resurrection" event in AD 33. The "Beast" which Rev. 20:4 mentions was in existence ever since Nebuchadnezzar's first deportation of Jerusalem's citizens in 607 BC. That "Beast" continued to exist into John's days as he was writing Revelation (666 years later). In one way or another, all those pagan empires had demanded homage. The "mark" was only part of that demand for homage which was when pagan Rome was in power. Those saints who remained faithful to God during their lifetime in spite of that demand for homage all "reigned with Christ" during those literal thousand years from 968 / 967 BC until AD 33 during the time when Satan's deception of the nations was being bound.

Without going into details of Revelation 20:1-9; I will only (for now) say that this is speaking of the time from Christ's ascension until he comes again to destroy his enemies.
He's already come back and destroyed the enemies described in Revelation. All those three Beasts as well as Satan and his devils are dead and long gone since AD 70. Since then, Christ has been wearing those "many crowns" confiscated from a dead Satan who once claimed to have power over the kingdoms of this world. Whether you acknowledge it or not, you and I are now living in the New Jerusalem with its open gates, and the leaves of the Tree of Life are available for the healing of the nations.

Yours is a pessimistic outlook, with a dismal projection for a declining church until the end. That is not God's perspective for His kingdom with the predicted growth of the leaven and of the mustard seed, the living water extending to all nations, and the growing "stone" which will eventually fill the entire world with its effects. The trajectory of the growth of the kingdom of God is on the incline, leading to His final return in our future.

When we worshipped together back in the late eighties and early nineties you believe what I'm saying, since I have not changed but you certainly have changed
?? I never had a single discussion with you on eschatology matters when we shared membership in the 80's and 90's. So I never even knew where you stood on these things. At the time, I wasn't pursuing an interest in this subject at all. I had no position whatever except the background of pre-mill disp. theories I was taught from childhood. I didn't give it any serious study until 2012 when I saw the Scripture describing things from the Preterist perspective.
 
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@3 Resurrections
?? I never had a single discussion with you on eschatology matters when we shared membership in the 80's and 90's. So I never even knew where you stood on these things. At the time, I wasn't pursuing an interest in this subject at all. I had no position whatever except the background of pre-mill disp. theories I was taught from childhood. I didn't give it any serious study until 2012 when I saw the Scripture describing things from the Preterist perspective.
You probably are correct, maybe I never discussed these things with you back then, even though I did believe just as I do today, so I'm sorry for assuming this.

I will answer your post in morning, since I'm retiring for the day.
 
Greetings Victoria,
Pray to tell me, what does your words above have to do with what I said:
Greetings there Red!

Okay, I pray thee... can we just revisit two prior posts of mine in regards to The "secret" Rapture theory that you seemed to conveniently skim over?
😂

Exhibit A: The "secret" Rapture theory

Exhibit B: The "secret" Rapture theory

Paul taught that he had a revelation of the mystery in his epistles. Something kept hidden, a mystery, is a secret, no?
@Grace ambassador went into great detail on her thread w/ you, one-on-one. I pray you take some time
to thoroughly study this out. A lot of time, & effort went into Grace's work. Thank you, Grace! :)
 
Precious sister, I should have named { to avoid confusion } me instead:
"ambassador Of God's Grace", eh?

And, appreciate all your Very kind words. Praise The Lord!!

Brother ChrisE😇
No, Grace ambassador is just fine! We're Ambassadors for Christ "aka" to share His grace message :love:
And you're welcome! Really, thank you for those edifying posts, brother ChrisE 🙏
 
Good morning @Victoria ...

It sounds good but is one of those things we wont know in this lifetime.
Good evening Free,

Agreed. Maybe certain things are not meant to be known this side of heaven.

I have read "An accompanying sign of his death is an earthquake, the tombs are open and it is only when Jesus resurrects many of the saints (those who believed in Christ) that died previously are also brought back to life and seen after his resurrection, but this is a not a permanent resurrection, these saints will die again. The Scripture does not tell us how long they lived, whether it was a few days months or years. This is the only mention of it in Scripture. They were a accompanying sign of Jonah and a testimony to the person and power of Jesus."
You actually got me thinking about those who were resurrected during Jesus' ministry. The Gospel of the kingdom involved miracles, & healing (i.e. Mark 5:21-43; Luke 7:11-17; John 11:1-44). Jews required a sign, so perhaps a few resurrections were included to demonstrate that He was indeed the Messiah. They died a physical death (again), yes, but know that they will live eternally, which is far better. Your thoughts?
Additionally Ai says... No, there are no historical accounts from historians like Josephus or Tacitus that mention the saints who came out of their graves as described in Matthew 27:50-54. This event is unique to the Gospel of Matthew and is not recorded in other historical or biblical texts.

and Search Assist says.

No, there are no historical accounts from historians like Josephus or Tacitus that mention the saints who came out of their graves as described in Matthew 27:50-54. This event is unique to the Gospel of Matthew and is not recorded in other historical or biblical texts. agameforgoodchristians.com

Historical Accounts of the Saints' Resurrection​

Lack of Historical Documentation​

  • No contemporary historians, such as Josephus or Tacitus, mention the event of saints rising from their graves as described in Matthew 27:50-54.
  • This absence raises questions about the historical verification of the event.

Biblical Context​

  • The resurrection of the saints is unique to the Gospel of Matthew and is not recorded in the other Gospels.
  • Early Church Fathers, including Clement of Alexandria and Eusebius, referenced this passage, but it remains a topic of debate regarding its authenticity and significance.

Interpretations and Speculations​

  • Scholars and theologians have speculated about the identity of these saints and the implications of their resurrection.
  • Questions arise about why this event is not more widely documented or discussed in historical texts outside the Bible.
In summary, while the event is noted in the biblical narrative, there is no external historical evidence to corroborate it.

And looking into Clement and Eusibius we can see they do mention this fact but it just seems to me so odd that
no one , not even the Centurion and others present who witnessed this did not immediately spread the word.

Here is a question... If no one actually knew this, and there is no recording of who these "Saints" talked to when they went into the city, or about what... is it possible that this is a mystery not to be understood?
It does make you wonder if there was even an account of Lazarus' (most commonly known) life before passing... again.
Anything that could be found on him? Perhaps we really won't know until we're w/ the Lord.


(edit)

Ooo, what about the disciple (John) Peter asks Jesus about, Free?
Anyone know how the apostle John died?


Then Peter, turning about, seeth the disciple whom Jesus loved following; which also leaned on his breast at supper,
and said, Lord, which is he that betrayeth thee?
Peter seeing him saith to Jesus, Lord, and what shall this man do?
Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me.
Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him,
He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?
This is the disciple which testifieth of these things, and wrote these things: and we know that his testimony is true.
And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one,
I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.

(John 21:20-25)
 
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You actually got me thinking about those who were resurrected during Jesus' ministry. The Gospel of the kingdom involved miracles, & healing (i.e. Mark 5:21-43; Luke 7:11-17; John 11:1-44). Jews required a sign, so perhaps a few resurrections were included to demonstrate that He was indeed the Messiah. They died a physical death (again), yes, but know that they will live eternally, which is far better. Your thoughts?
I'm not FreeInChrist, but I can't resist a resurrection discussion. NO. None of those raised to life in either the OT or the NT ever died again. It just isn't possible for a person to die twice physically, once they have been resurrected. I see people making this statement as if it is gospel, when it contradicts what the Scriptures say about the bodily-resurrected state being a permanent change to a glorified form.

•"It is appointed unto men ONCE to die, and after this the judgment". Once only. Never twice. (Heb. 9:27-28)
•"Neither CAN they die anymore: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection." Another physical death is stated to be an impossibility, once a saint is resurrected. (Luke 20:35-36)
•"Christ being raised from the dead, dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over Him". (Romans 6:9). And our resurrection surety is a copy of Christ's. Once anyone is bodily resurrected, "death hath no more dominion" over them either.

The permanence of the bodily-resurrected state is comparable to the permanence of the spiritually-resurrected condition for a believer. The one is a mirror of the other. If the bodily-resurrected state can be lost by physically dying another time, then the spiritually-resurrected salvation status of a believer could be in jeopardy as well. But neither can possibly happen, because the indwelling Holy Spirit is an absolute guarantee of spiritual resurrection as well as the permanence of a bodily resurrection for the child of God.
It does make you wonder if there was even an account of Lazarus' (most commonly known) life before passing... again.
Anything that could be found on him? Perhaps we really won't know until we're w/ the Lord.
NO. Lazarus did not die another time either. Not even possible.

Ooo, what about the disciple (John) Peter asks Jesus about, Free?
Anyone know how the apostle John died?
That "disciple whom Jesus loved" in John 21:20-22 WAS the beloved Lazarus, and NOT John the son of Zebedee, who was another "John". Lazarus never died again, but was given charge of Christ's mother at the foot of the cross. From that same hour, the disciple took her into his own home (which was a short hour's walk to Bethany, the home of Lazarus. John the son of Zebedee's home was in far-off Galilee - not accessible within an hour's walk). Christ provided well for the senior care of His mother by giving her into the charge of Lazarus the beloved disciple who could never die again, get sick, weary, injured, or fall prey to sin ever again (John son of Zebedee Christ promised was going to be martyred soon, as well as his brother James). And the beloved Lazarus / aka John was going to "remain" on earth until Christ bodily returned for all the resurrected saints in AD 70.

Lazarus went by several aliases while he had Mary in his care, in order to confuse and throw off his trail the persecuting Jewish leadership who hated him and Jesus equally. His full name was John Eleazar ("Lazarus" being a Latinized version of "Eleazar"), but he was also nicknamed as "Barnabas" meaning "the son of consolation" - the "son" given to Mary who consoled her after Christ had returned to heaven. He was also known as "John", being the author of the 3 epistles, the gospel of John - and of Revelation.

In other words, the glorified, resurrected Lazarus / aka John was the author of five books in our NT. No wonder it was testified of him that "we KNOW that his testimony is true..." (John 21:24). A glorified, resurrected person cannot possibly lie or mislead anyone in a written document.
 
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NO. Lazarus did not die another time either. Not even possible.
If you'd like, perhaps you could start a thread on the topic of resurrections alone... unless one already exists? I haven't yet checked.
I'd be really interested in this topic, given I never once considered what
@FreeInChrist brought up before. It never dawned on me, but now has me curious. And given your username, what better brother/sister than Mr./Mrs./Ms. 3 Resurrections him/herself 😂

And I just noticed too,
@Grace ambassador, that I assumed you were female earlier. Oops! I apologize, brother ChrisE 🤗


Meanwhile,
@3 Resurrections, I did take a look at the following two articles on GotQuestions.org:

Who was the disciple whom Jesus loved?

How did the apostle John die?
 
I'm not FreeInChrist, but I can't resist a resurrection discussion. NO. None of those raised to life in either the OT or the NT ever died again. It just isn't possible for a person to die twice physically, once they have been resurrected. I see people making this statement as if it is gospel, when it contradicts what the Scriptures say about the bodily-resurrected state being a permanent change to a glorified form.

•"It is appointed unto men ONCE to die, and after this the judgment". Once only. Never twice. (Heb. 9:27-28)
•"Neither CAN they die anymore: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection." Another physical death is stated to be an impossibility, once a saint is resurrected. (Luke 20:35-36)
•"Christ being raised from the dead, dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over Him". (Romans 6:9). And our resurrection surety is a copy of Christ's. Once anyone is bodily resurrected, "death hath no more dominion" over them either.

The permanence of the bodily-resurrected state is comparable to the permanence of the spiritually-resurrected condition for a believer. The one is a mirror of the other. If the bodily-resurrected state can be lost by physically dying another time, then the spiritually-resurrected salvation status of a believer could be in jeopardy as well. But neither can possibly happen, because the indwelling Holy Spirit is an absolute guarantee of spiritual resurrection as well as the permanence of a bodily resurrection for the child of God.

NO. Lazarus did not die another time either. Not even possible.


That "disciple whom Jesus loved" in John 21:20-22 WAS the beloved Lazarus, and NOT John the son of Zebedee, who was another "John". Lazarus never died again, but was given charge of Christ's mother at the foot of the cross. From that same hour, the disciple took her into his own home (which was a short hour's walk to Bethany, the home of Lazarus. John the son of Zebedee's home was in far-off Galilee - not accessible within an hour's walk). Christ provided well for the senior care of His mother by giving her into the charge of Lazarus the beloved disciple who could never die again, get sick, weary, injured, or fall prey to sin ever again (John son of Zebedee Christ promised was going to be martyred soon, as well as his brother James). And the beloved Lazarus / aka John was going to "remain" on earth until Christ bodily returned for all the resurrected saints in AD 70.

Lazarus went by several aliases while he had Mary in his care, in order to confuse and throw off his trail the persecuting Jewish leadership who hated him and Jesus equally. His full name was John Eleazar ("Lazarus" being a Latinized version of "Eleazar"), but he was also nicknamed as "Barnabas" meaning "the son of consolation" - the "son" given to Mary who consoled her after Christ had returned to heaven. He was also known as "John", being the author of the 3 epistles, the gospel of John - and of Revelation.

In other words, the glorified, resurrected Lazarus / aka John was the author of five books in our NT. No wonder it was testified of him that "we KNOW that his testimony is true..." (John 21:24). A glorified, resurrected person cannot possibly lie or mislead anyone in a written document.
I tend to suspect the Lazarus wrote the fourth gospel and have speculated that he has an alias, as you mention. However, despite the questioning of the other disciples and Jesus's answer, it is possible for him to die again (or was possible). His resurrection was a miracle before any bible-prophesied resurrection was to happen. Miracles are, roughly speaking, recognized as exceptions to the rule.
 
I tend to suspect the Lazarus wrote the fourth gospel and have speculated that he has an alias, as you mention. However, despite the questioning of the other disciples and Jesus's answer, it is possible for him to die again (or was possible). His resurrection was a miracle before any bible-prophesied resurrection was to happen. Miracles are, roughly speaking, recognized as exceptions to the rule.
Or perhaps like Enoch, & Elijah... they never faced a physical death. But in the other's case... again 🤷‍♀️
 
Or perhaps like Enoch, & Elijah... they never faced a physical death. But in the other's case... again 🤷‍♀️
Yep. Tabitha too. Also the daughter in Luke 8:49ff had died. We do not know if she followed Christ.
I suspect Noah died in the fish and was raised. But that is not clearly stated.
Paul probably died in Acts 14:19. And that guy who fell out the window

You have to ask where all these folks are hanging out.
 
Yep. Tabitha too. Also the daughter in Luke 8:49ff had died. We do not know if she followed Christ.
I suspect Noah died in the fish and was raised. But that is not clearly stated.
Paul probably died in Acts 14:19. And that guy who fell out the window

You have to ask where all these folks are hanging out.
The story of Jonah, & the fish is one of my favorites 😂

It would be an interesting discussion, however, I do draw the line on a Preterist take regarding eschatology.
I'm game for what
@FreeInChrist questions, given she's w/in orthodox Christianity.
 
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The story of Jonah, & the fish is one of my favorites 😂
Things did not work out the way Jonah planned.
It would be an interesting discussion, however, I do draw the line on a Preterist take regarding eschatology.
I'm game for what
@FreeInChrist's questions, given she's w/in orthodox Christianity.
I'm more cautious. i draw the line on anything that does not conform to the testimony of scripture.

Anyhow, you have to realize there are three main divisions of eschatological views that are treated as acceptable within Christianity. There has traditionally been enough uncertainty of meaning that people could not complain much about the other views.
 
Yep. Tabitha too. Also the daughter in Luke 8:49ff had died. We do not know if she followed Christ.
I suspect Noah died in the fish and was raised. But that is not clearly stated.
Paul probably died in Acts 14:19. And that guy who fell out the window

You have to ask where all these folks are hanging out.
None of these bodily-resurrected individuals are hanging out on earth today. They all left with the returning Christ who came to the Mount of Olives to gather the resurrected saints to Himself and return to heaven with them in AD 70. In other words, the 1 Thess. 4 "rapture" of those resurrected saints who had been made "alive" and who had "remained" on earth is ancient history by now.

Daniel 12:11-13 gave us the exact day in which this second bodily resurrection event would take place - on the last 1,335th day of that countdown which began in AD 66 when Jerusalem was first surrounded by armies (the "abomination of desolation" per Luke 21:20), in the same season when a daily sacrifice was to be taken away (by the temple governor, Eleazar, son of Ananias).
 
I tend to suspect the Lazarus wrote the fourth gospel and have speculated that he has an alias, as you mention. However, despite the questioning of the other disciples and Jesus's answer, it is possible for him to die again (or was possible).
Lazarus / aka John who wrote Revelation had a curious connection with the "angel" who was giving him the visions. When John was about to worship the "angel" who showed him those things, the "angel" said, "See thou do it not: for I am thy fellow-servant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God." This angelic "messenger" was a man just like John - one of his brethren the prophets, and John's fellow-servant. This "angel" in Revelation 22:9 I believe was a human "messenger": another resurrected human, just like Lazarus / aka John.

I'll mention an anecdote which the original 1853 edition of Foxe's Book of Martyrs gave about the author of Revelation. It said that the author of Revelation was plunged into boiling oil by the Proconsul of Ephesus and emerged unscathed. Tertullian and Jerome were the source of this account, saying that the author of Revelation was sent to Patmos after this attempt to boil him in oil failed to turn him into a deep-fried martyr. Perhaps this is not so miraculous a coincidence after all, if the author of Revelation was Lazarus - incapable of dying another time by any means whatever.
 
@3 Resurrections
Lazarus / aka John who wrote Revelation had a curious connection with the "angel" who was giving him the visions. When John was about to worship the "angel" who showed him those things, the "angel" said, "See thou do it not: for I am thy fellow-servant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God." This angelic "messenger" was a man just like John - one of his brethren the prophets, and John's fellow-servant. This "angel" in Revelation 22:9 I believe was a human "messenger": another resurrected human, just like Lazarus / aka John.

I'll mention an anecdote which the original 1853 edition of Foxe's Book of Martyrs gave about the author of Revelation. It said that the author of Revelation was plunged into boiling oil by the Proconsul of Ephesus and emerged unscathed. Tertullian and Jerome were the source of this account, saying that the author of Revelation was sent to Patmos after this attempt to boil him in oil failed to turn him into a deep-fried martyr. Perhaps this is not so miraculous a coincidence after all, if the author of Revelation was Lazarus - incapable of dying another time by any means whatever.
:unsure: CAll me Thomas if you will, I will never accept no other person wrote the gospel of John and Revelation other than John the apostle.

Revelation 1:1​

“The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:”
 
@Victoria @Grace ambassador
Paul taught that he had a revelation of the mystery in his epistles. Something kept hidden, a mystery, is a secret, no?
@Grace ambassador went into great detail on her thread w/ you, one-on-one. I pray you take some time
to thoroughly study this out. A lot of time, & effort went into Grace's work. Thank you, Grace! :)
His post was not to me, and besides it was copied and pasted for whoever desired to read it, he can correct me if I'm wrong. He even started out by saying precious friends...

I'll be happy to go over it and show where I think it goes against the scriptures if you like, or, if he would like me to do so.
 
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@Victoria @Jim @FreeInChrist @civic

They do not believe that Christ came secretly 70 A.D.

Sigh.... Preterists most certainly teach the second coming of Jesus Christ occurred in A.D. 70 when the temple in Jerusalem was destroyed. They say Christ did not come in a literal sense but in a spiritual sense coinciding with the destruction of Jerusalem, and that all biblical prophecies had been fulfilled by that time.

Do all Preterists believe this? I have talked to those who do and those who don't. If our mutual friend @3 Resurrections
reads this I hope they will fill in with accuracy on this. I say accuracy because 3Rs is the consummate expert on the sunbect.
~ but do take scriptures in Matthew 24; Mark 13 and Luke 21 where the scriptures speaks of Christ's second coming and try to applied a coming, "not" to the end of the world as the Holy Ghost intended them to be understood, but to the destruction of of the Jewish temple and nation.

Victoria, you are assuming a position that you cannot prove, since you have no scriptures to support what you saying, You must have scriptures to support what you are saying, or else, it is just an assumption on your part, that you have received from someone else saying the same. No pun intended, just making a point for your consideration.

The first resurrection is strictly spiritual in nature,

True
it takes place when one is born again.

Disagree~ You feel that being "born again" is the literal transformation that happens at the resurrection—when believers are changed into spirit beings and enter God's Family to rule with Christ. If I am wrong, then explain yourself.

I believe that one must be born again... come to Christ... before they have their mortal death.
 
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