Those who believe Moses
John 5:46 (LEB) — 46 For if you had believed Moses, you would believe me, for that one wrote about me.
The New birth comes after hearing/believing the gospel
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Those who believe Moses
John 5:46 (LEB) — 46 For if you had believed Moses, you would believe me, for that one wrote about me.
brightfame52
Active Member
Yes can a man hear and believe without the Father Drawing according to Jn 6:44 ? Yes or No
brightfame52
Active Member
That's not what Jn 6:44, 65 said
So what?
It does say
John 5:46 (LEB) — 46 For if you had believed Moses, you would believe me, for that one wrote about me.
Yes
It does say
John 5:46 (LEB) — 46 For if you had believed Moses, you would believe me, for that one wrote about me.
brightfame52
Active Member
So it doesn't support you
brightfame52
Active Member
That's not what Jesus said, sorry, you oppose what He said Jn 6 44 65
You ignored this
Jesus does say
John 5:46 (LEB) — 46 For if you had believed Moses, you would believe me, for that one wrote about me.
It does say
John 5:46 (LEB) — 46 For if you had believed Moses, you would believe me, for that one wrote about me.
Supports me quite well
brightfame52
Active Member
Nothing here is said about man having the ability to come to Christ, read Jn 6 44 65
Clearly the ability to believe Christ is here
John 6:45 (NASB95) — 45 “It is written in the prophets, ‘AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.
This is true even if God's teaching is through another party
For example those who believe Moses would believe on Christ
John 5:46 (LEB) — 46 For if you had believed Moses, you would believe me, for that one wrote about me.
Belief in the words of others as well
Acts 14:1 In Iconium they entered the synagogue of the Jews together, and spoke in such a manner that a large number of people believed, both of Jews and of Greeks.
Acts 18:8 Crispus, the leader of the synagogue, believed in the Lord with all his household, and many of the Corinthians when they heard were believing and being baptized.
John 1:6–7 (NASB 95) — 6 There came a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 He came as a witness, to testify about the Light, so that all might believe through him.
Acts 8:12 But when they believed Philip preaching the good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were being baptized, men and women alike.
Acts 2:37–38Now when they heard this, they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brethren, what shall we do?” Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Even what is written is sufficient
John 20:30–31 Therefore many other signs Jesus also performed in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.
Acts 17:11–12 Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so. Therefore many of them believed, along with a number of prominent Greek women and men.
Neither verse says that no man can come to Christ. It just establishes the conditions given for any man to come to Christ.
When its granted to them by God, sure.
Agreed
It does not say they had alread heard and learned. Hearing and learning is how they are drawn, not why.nope only those who ALREADY have listened and learnrnd from the Father are drawn to the Son and come to Him.
Bible truth, Jesus truth 101. Jesus teaching does not support your interpretation, it supports mine above since its His words.
hope this helps !!!
"Granted" does not mean "infuse," "install," etc.
And the word granted does not even appear in the texts cited where some did and some did not repent
Man may repent
Jeremiah 31:18-19
I have surely heard Ephraim’s moaning: ‘You disciplined me severely, like an untrained calf. Restore me, that I may return, for You are the LORD my God. / After I returned, I repented; and after I was instructed, I struck my thigh in grief. I was ashamed and humiliated because I bore the disgrace of my youth.’
Revelation 2:21–22 (LEB) — 21 And I have given her time in order to repent, and she did not want to repent from her sexual immorality. 22 Behold, I am throwing her into a sickbed and those who committed adultery with her into great affliction, unless they repent from her deeds.
Luke 11:32 (LEB) — 32 The people of Nineveh will stand up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it, because they repented at the proclamation of Jonah, and behold, something greater than Jonah is here!
Ezekiel 18:30–32 (LEB) — 30 “Therefore I will judge you, house of Israel, each one according to his ways,” declares the Lord Yahweh. “Repent and turn around from all of your transgression, and it will not be as a stumbling block of iniquity to you.
Draw near to God
James 4:8-10
Draw near to God, and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded. / Grieve, mourn, and weep. Turn your laughter to mourning, and your joy to gloom. / Humble yourselves before the Lord, and He will exalt you.
return to the Lord
Isa 55:6–7Seek Yahweh while he lets himself be found; call him while he is near. Let the wicked forsake his way, and the man of sin his thoughts. And let him return to Yahweh, that he may take pity on him, and to our God, for he will forgive manifold.
Jeremiah 3:12–14 (LEB) — 12 Go, and proclaim these words toward the north, and say, ‘Return, apostate Israel,’ declares Yahweh. ‘I will not cause my anger to fall on you. For I am loyal,’ declares Yahweh. ‘I will not be angry forever. 13 Only acknowledge your guilt, that against Yahweh your God you have rebelled, and have scattered your ways to the strangers under every leafy tree, and you have not obeyed my voice,’ declares Yahweh.” 14 “Return, apostate children,” declares Yahweh. “For I am your master, and I will take you one from a city and two from a clan, and I will bring you to Zion.
Choose to serve God
Joshua 24:15–22 (LEB) — 15 But if it is bad in your eyes to serve Yahweh, choose for yourselves today whom you want to serve, whether it is the gods that your ancestors served beyond the river, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living; but as for me and my household, we will serve Yahweh.” 16 And the people answered and said, “Far be it from us that we would forsake Yahweh to serve other gods, 17 for Yahweh our God brought us and our ancestors from the land of Egypt, from the house of slavery, and did these great signs before our eyes. He protected us along the entire way that we went, and among all the peoples through whose midst we passed. 18 And Yahweh drove out all the people before us, the Amorites who live in the land. We will serve Yahweh, for he is our God.” 19 But Joshua said to the people, “You cannot serve Yahweh, for he is a holy and jealous God; he will not forgive your transgressions or your sins. 20 If you forsake Yahweh and serve foreign gods, he will turn and bring disaster to you; he will destroy you after he has done good to you.” 21 And the people said to Joshua, “No, we will serve Yahweh.” 22 And Joshua said to the people, “You are witnesses against yourselves that you have chosen for yourselves to serve Yahweh.” And they said, “We are witnesses.”
Choose life
Deuteronomy 30:11–20 (LEB) — 11 “For this commandment that I am commanding you today is not too wonderful for you, and it is not too far from you. 12 It is not in the heavens so that you might say, ‘Who will go up for us to the heavens and get it for us and cause us to hear it, so that we may do it?’ 13 And it is not beyond the sea, so that you might say, ‘Who will cross for us to the other side of the sea and take it for us and cause us to hear it, so that we may do it?’ 14 But the word is very near you, even in your mouth and in your heart, so that you may do it. 15 “See, I am setting before you today life and prosperity and death and disaster; 16 what I am commanding you today is to love Yahweh your God by going in his ways and by keeping his commandments and his statutes and his regulations, and then you will live, and you will become numerous, and Yahweh your God will bless you in the land where you are going. 17 However, if your heart turns aside and you do not listen and you are lured away and you bow down to other gods and you serve them, 18 I declare to you today that you will certainly perish; you will not extend your time on the land that you are crossing the Jordan to go there to take possession of it. 19 I invoke as a witness against you today the heaven and the earth: life and death I have set before you, blessing and curse. So choose life, so that you may live, you and your offspring, 20 by loving Yahweh your God by listening to his voice and by clinging to him, for he is your life and the length of your days in order for you to live on the land that Yahweh swore to your ancestors, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give to them.”
Isaiah 55:3 (LEB) — 3 Extend your ear, and come to me! Listen so that your soul may live, and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, the enduring proofs of the mercies shown to David.
Joe
Active Member
Hello Brother Red,
Did Saul hear the Gospel prior to his encounter with our Lord?...Yes, many times. He was persecuting those who believed it.
Saul only believed after the Lord revealed Himself from Heaven and answered his question, "who are you, Lord?".
And it was Paul (Saul) who later penned, "For "WHOEVER CALLS ON THE NAME OF THE LORD SHALL BE SAVED." How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher?"
As Kampioen stated, "unless someone tells them the gospel they will never be saved." Without first hearing the Gospel there is no faith. Without faith there is no regeneration of the Spirit. As the Apostle John stated, "Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God."
So, the salvation order is hearing the Gospel of Jesus Christ, believing it and calling out to the Lord with Him giving all who do so the right to become a child of God, and then their being regenerated by the Spirit of God.
This is what we see with the salvation of Paul. Without any doubt or debate, he heard and knew the Gospel of Jesus Christ already. It was after the Lord miraculously revealed Himself from heaven to Saul, and then answering his question "who are you, Lord" did Saul believe and confess He was the Lord by asking, "What shall I do, Lord". Our Lord answered him and he obeyed by going to Damascus as told. It was there that our Lord directed Ananias to go to Saul, "And laying his hands on him he said, “Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus who appeared to you on the road by which you came has sent me so that you may regain your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit. And immediately something like scales fell from his eyes, and he regained his sight. Then he rose and was baptized”. Salvation order is hearing, believing, confessing, then regeneration.
Using your same contextual application of 1 Cor 12:3 as a baseline of regeneration, then Mormons are believers and saved since they genuinely confess Jesus Christ as Lord. And many people of the world in everyday life confess Jesus Christ is Lord and yet their lives do not reflect the regeneration of the Spirit of God.
1 Cor 12:3 concerns spiritual gifts that anyone who is gifted with these spiritual gifts from the Spirit of God will not say Jesus is cursed-an imposter who was rightly punished unto death. And on the flip side of the verse, everyone who has spiritual gifts will say that Jesus is Lord by the Spirit of God. This verse is contextually applicable through verse 11 as Paul teaches the Corinthians about the purpose of the different kinds of spiritual gifts from the Holy Spirit.
As a note: I am not saying the Spirit of God is not actively convicting the world bringing people to believe in Jesus Christ, for He most certianly is. I'm saying your order of salvation is biblically wrong and so is your use of 1 Cor 12:3 to backup your belief.
God Bless
civic
Active Member
yes it does the ones who are drawn and come are the ones who have ( past tense ) listened and learned from the Father.
