The misnomer that all our past, present and future sins are forgiven at salavtion

[civic]

Lets examine what Jesus and the Apostles all taught about the forgiveness of our sins along with repentance and confessing our sins. Does the bible actually teach what many claim? When we were saved did God really forgive us of all of our past sins, present sins and future sins ?

Below we will see that there is a consistent teaching on this topic. If all of our future sins are forgiven then why does Jesus and the Apostles teach repentance is required, confessing those sins is required and forgiving others is required for us to be forgiven? If all my future sins were atoned for then what is the point of confessing and repenting of our present sins ?

Do you really believe that these passages below were written to His disciples, believers, Christians, followers of Jesus- His church ? yes or no

Matthew 6:9-13- This, then, is how you should pray:

“‘Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name,
10 your kingdom come,
your will be done,
on earth as it is in heaven.
11 Give us today our daily bread.
12 And forgive us our debts,
as we also have forgiven our debtors.
13 And lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from the evil one.

14 For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.

Luke 17:3-4- So watch yourselves.“If your brother or sister sins against you, rebuke them; and if they repent, forgive them. 4 Even if they sin against you seven times in a day and seven times come back to you saying ‘I repent,’ you must forgive them.”

Acts 8:13- Simon himself believed and was baptized. And he followed Philip everywhere, astonished by the great signs and miracles he saw.

Food for thought: If future sins are pre-forgiven and confession isn't 'required,' why did Peter tell Simon the Sorcerer (a believer/baptized) to 'Repent and pray... that he might be forgiven' (Acts 8:22)? Peter didn't say 'Don't worry, it's already pre-paid. Peter tells him below that forgiveness in conditional.

Acts 8:22- Repent of this wickedness and pray to the Lord in the hope that he may forgive you for having such a thought in your heart.

Acts 19:18- Many of those who believed now came and openly confessed what they had done.

2 Corinthians 7:9-10- yet now I am happy, not because you were made sorry, but because your sorrow led you to repentance. For you became sorrowful as God intended and so were not harmed in any way by us. 10 Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death.

Below we see James and John say its conditional.

James 5:14-16- Is anyone among you sick? Let them call the elders of the church to pray over them and anoint them with oil in the name of the Lord. 15 And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise them up. If they have sinned, they will be forgiven. 16 Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective.

1 John 1:8-2:1- If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us. My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One.

Jesus below affirms it is conditional.

Revelation 2:4-5- I hold this against you: You have forsaken the love you had at first. 5 Consider how far you have fallen! Repent and do the things you did at first. If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place.

Revelation 2:16- Repent therefore! Otherwise, I will soon come to you and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.

Revelation 2:21-22- I have given her time to repent of her immorality, but she is unwilling. 22 So I will cast her on a bed of suffering, and I will make those who commit adultery with her suffer intensely, unless they repent of her ways.

Revelation 3:2-3- Wake up! Strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have found your deeds unfinished in the sight of my God. 3 Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; hold it fast, and repent. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you.

Revelation 3:19- Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest and repent.

Summary: From the above passages we see forgiveness of sins requires these 3 things- 1) active repentance 2) confession of sins,sins. 3) seeking Gods forgiveness.

Lets discuss these passages, not what we have been taught or told by many in the pulpits or denominations we are a part of. Is Gods word really our compass, our true north, our only source for truth ?

hope this helps !!!

 

[charismaticlady]

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1 John 1:8-2:1- If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us. My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One.

I heard a teaching on this passage. What do you think.

The first sentence of chapter two most people ignore, but it says. "My dear children, I write this to you SO THAT YOU WILL NOT SIN." No one believes that can happen. The next sentence says "anybody." That is everybody, saved and unsaved. It is the same as John 3:16-17 "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that "whoever" believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved." Jesus is the world's Advocate. Not just believers when they keep sinning any type of sin as some try to defend themselves. "2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world." When Jesus takes away ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS, how much unrighteousness is left to keep sinning? None. Meaning you "WILL NOT SIN." The same as 1 John 3:9 "Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God." We will not sin because Jesus takes away our sin nature, and not only that, but gives us the Holy Spirit to make us slaves of righteousness. Romans 6:18 and 22. 18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life.

The point is we will not commit mortal sins - sins unto death. But as we unintentionally commit venial sins (debts/trespasses)as we WALK IN THE SPIRIT, they are automatically cleansed. 1 John 1:7. But NOT MORTAL SINS.

 

[charismaticlady]

@civic?

 

[atpollard]

I am not @civic , but I can give it a response:

The first sentence of chapter two most people ignore, but it says. "My dear children, I write this to you SO THAT YOU WILL NOT SIN." No one believes that can happen.

The flaw is the "all or nothing" approach to "will not sin". Anyone that claims to have achieved a state of sinless perfection and never, ever sins ... just did and proved themselves a liar ["no one is good except God alone" - Jesus (Mark 10:18)]. On the other hand, who really claims that they have NEVER avoided a sin, never resisted any temptation?

So John wrote the truth ... they will not sin if they follow his advice (and they will sometimes and they will not other times).

The next sentence says "anybody." That is everybody, saved and unsaved. It is the same as John 3:16-17 "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that "whoever" believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved." Jesus is the world's Advocate. Not just believers when they keep sinning any type of sin as some try to defend themselves. "2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world." When Jesus takes away ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS, how much unrighteousness is left to keep sinning? None. Meaning you "WILL NOT SIN." The same as 1 John 3:9 "Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God." We will not sin because Jesus takes away our sin nature, and not only that, but gives us the Holy Spirit to make us slaves of righteousness. Romans 6:18 and 22. 18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life.

This analysis claims sinless perfection and is not a teaching on 1 John 1:8-2:1 but a denial of the teaching of 1 John.

1 John 1:8-2:1

If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us. My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One.​

• You advocate that John is speaking to EVERYONE (without exception), but 1 John 2:1 specifically identifies "my little children" and John constantly emphasizes WE rather than YOU or THEY, thus making the audience "fellow believers" [which excludes most of the world].
• You advocate not merely the possibility, but the necessary reality that saints "WILL NOT SIN", but 1 John 1:8 directly contradicts that ("If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves") and places anyone who believes themselves sinless outside of salvation ("and the truth is not in us").
• 1 John 1:9 goes further and states that "WE" (the Apostle John and his "little children" believers) "confess our sins" and that God "will forgive us our sins and purify us". John would not say that of his "little children" and HIMSELF if they were all living sinless lives. If the Apostle John (whom Jesus loved) was not living a sinless life, what makes anyone else thing that they are?
• Note how harshly 1 John 1:10 puts it ... "If we claim we have not sinned, we make him [GOD] out to be a liar and his word is not in us"!

The point is we will not commit mortal sins - sins unto death. But as we unintentionally commit venial sins (debts/trespasses)as we WALK IN THE SPIRIT, they are automatically cleansed. 1 John 1:7. But NOT MORTAL SINS.

I think you misunderstand 1 John 5:16 about "sins unto death". The reason not to pray for sins leading unto death is not that those sins are too serous to pray for, it is because we do not pray for the dead (they are past the point of repenting). We pray for sins as long as the person is still alive. Think of King David praying for his dying child. Nothing could stop or console him while the child lay ill. Once the child died, David wasted no time mourning or praying ... God had settled the matter and David accepted that the matter was now in God's hands. [2 Samuel 12:15-23]

• 2 Samuel 12:15-23 [NKJV]
  15 Then Nathan departed to his house. And the LORD struck the child that Uriah's wife bore to David, and it became ill. 16 David therefore pleaded with God for the child, and David fasted and went in and lay all night on the ground. 17 So the elders of his house arose [and went] to him, to raise him up from the ground. But he would not, nor did he eat food with them. 18 Then on the seventh day it came to pass that the child died. And the servants of David were afraid to tell him that the child was dead. For they said, "Indeed, while the child was alive, we spoke to him, and he would not heed our voice. How can we tell him that the child is dead? He may do some harm!"
  19 When David saw that his servants were whispering, David perceived that the child was dead. Therefore David said to his servants, "Is the child dead?" And they said, "He is dead."
  20 So David arose from the ground, washed and anointed himself, and changed his clothes; and he went into the house of the LORD and worshiped. Then he went to his own house; and when he requested, they set food before him, and he ate. 21 Then his servants said to him, "What [is] this that you have done? You fasted and wept for the child [while he was] alive, but when the child died, you arose and ate food."
  22 And he said, "While the child was alive, I fasted and wept; for I said, 'Who can tell [whether] the LORD will be gracious to me, that the child may live?' 23 "But now he is dead; why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me."

Nothing is "automatically cleansed". The blood does cleanse us as we walk in the light (1 John 1:7), but walking in the light includes confessing our sins and his faithfully forgiving them (1 John 1:9).

 

[charismaticlady]

I am not @civic , but I can give it a response:

The flaw is the "all or nothing" approach to "will not sin". Anyone that claims to have achieved a state of sinless perfection and never, ever sins ... just did and proved themselves a liar ["no one is good except God alone" - Jesus (Mark 10:18)]. On the other hand, who really claims that they have NEVER avoided a sin, never resisted any temptation?

So John wrote the truth ... they will not sin if they follow his advice (and they will sometimes and they will not other times).


This analysis claims sinless perfection and is not a teaching on 1 John 1:8-2:1 but a denial of the teaching of 1 John.

1 John 1:8-2:1

If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us. My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One.​

• You advocate that John is speaking to EVERYONE (without exception), but 1 John 2:1 specifically identifies "my little children" and John constantly emphasizes WE rather than YOU or THEY, thus making the audience "fellow believers" [which excludes most of the world].
• You advocate not merely the possibility, but the necessary reality that saints "WILL NOT SIN", but 1 John 1:8 directly contradicts that ("If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves") and places anyone who believes themselves sinless outside of salvation ("and the truth is not in us").
• 1 John 1:9 goes further and states that "WE" (the Apostle John and his "little children" believers) "confess our sins" and that God "will forgive us our sins and purify us". John would not say that of his "little children" and HIMSELF if they were all living sinless lives. If the Apostle John (whom Jesus loved) was not living a sinless life, what makes anyone else thing that they are?
• Note how harshly 1 John 1:10 puts it ... "If we claim we have not sinned, we make him [GOD] out to be a liar and his word is not in us"!

I think you misunderstand 1 John 5:16 about "sins unto death". The reason not to pray for sins leading unto death is not that those sins are too serous to pray for, it is because we do not pray for the dead (they are past the point of repenting). We pray for sins as long as the person is still alive. Think of King David praying for his dying child. Nothing could stop or console him while the child lay ill. Once the child died, David wasted no time mourning or praying ... God had settled the matter and David accepted that the matter was now in God's hands. [2 Samuel 12:15-23]

• 2 Samuel 12:15-23 [NKJV]
  15 Then Nathan departed to his house. And the LORD struck the child that Uriah's wife bore to David, and it became ill. 16 David therefore pleaded with God for the child, and David fasted and went in and lay all night on the ground. 17 So the elders of his house arose [and went] to him, to raise him up from the ground. But he would not, nor did he eat food with them. 18 Then on the seventh day it came to pass that the child died. And the servants of David were afraid to tell him that the child was dead. For they said, "Indeed, while the child was alive, we spoke to him, and he would not heed our voice. How can we tell him that the child is dead? He may do some harm!"
  19 When David saw that his servants were whispering, David perceived that the child was dead. Therefore David said to his servants, "Is the child dead?" And they said, "He is dead."
  20 So David arose from the ground, washed and anointed himself, and changed his clothes; and he went into the house of the LORD and worshiped. Then he went to his own house; and when he requested, they set food before him, and he ate. 21 Then his servants said to him, "What [is] this that you have done? You fasted and wept for the child [while he was] alive, but when the child died, you arose and ate food."
  22 And he said, "While the child was alive, I fasted and wept; for I said, 'Who can tell [whether] the LORD will be gracious to me, that the child may live?' 23 "But now he is dead; why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me."

Nothing is "automatically cleansed". The blood does cleanse us as we walk in the light (1 John 1:7), but walking in the light includes confessing our sins and his faithfully forgiving them (1 John 1:9).

Sins unto death are presumptuous sins, willful knowingly sinning against God, such as murder, rape, adultery, homosexuality, beastiality, stealing, abandoning your parents, fornication, sorcery, etc. These can only be cleansed when Jesus cleanses us of all unrighteousness and He takes sin unto death out of our nature to make us children of God who are now born of the Spirit of God. They are called "lawlessness." We no longer want to commit them; the desire is gone, so don't do it anymore.

The laws of God for that person are now written on their heart, their mind and nature. They have been given the Spirit of Christ to walk in and all we WANT to do is please God. It is sinless of lawlessness, but not perfect. There is a difference. 1 John 1:7 shows us that we are to walk in the Spirit from then on. We won't commit sins unto death ever again. In fact, all desire to do so has been taken away by Christ, the Author of our faith, and those who continue to desire those sins have not the Spirit of Christ in them. (A test one can give ourselves.) From now on as the Finisher of our faith, as we continue to abide in Christ and walk in His Spirit He starts the process of maturing the fruit of the Spirit until Jesus has perfected what He started. Phil. 1:6