The lie of "secretive will".....

[praise_yeshua]

There is no wrath without knowledge.

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Have they not heard?

Rom 10:18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

There is no mystery with God. God has only declared Himself to mankind.

Unbelief willfully rejects knowledge of God.

 

[TedT]

There is no wrath without knowledge.

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Have they not heard?

Of course...

..but that they hold the truth that may be known about GOD, even HIS invisible divine attributes, in unrighteousness suggests a few implications:
1. That they know the proof of HIS divinity but still rebuke HIM as a false god seems impossible to me. Who can bask in the glory of GOD and still say, "You are not GOD, I am?" It implies that they rejected HIM before they saw this proof and the fall came before the creation of the physical universe and the foundation of the world, the creation which was the great proof of HIS divinity and eternal power.

2. The passage in Romans is referring to men, sinful mankind, not just to fallen demons, implying that we too fell before the proof was given to us by creation as it was for Satan. Iow, mankind must have fallen to sin before the proof was offered also. We were also within the "ALL" the sons of GOD who saw the proof when we saw the creation and sang HIS praise, Job 38:7.

3. Knowledge of the proof of GOD existing has no salvative value, so to believe HE is and is divine does not save you because the demons also know that and tremble.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Of course...

..but that they hold the truth that may be known about GOD, even HIS invisible divine attributes, in unrighteousness suggests a few implications:
1. That they know the proof of HIS divinity but still rebuke HIM as a false god seems impossible to me. Who can bask in the glory of GOD and still say, "You are not GOD, I am?" It implies that they rejected HIM before they saw this proof and the fall came before the creation of the physical universe and the foundation of the world, the creation which was the great proof of HIS divinity and eternal power.

2. The passage in Romans is referring to men, sinful mankind, not just to fallen demons, implying that we too fell before the proof was given to us by creation as it was for Satan. Iow, mankind must have fallen to sin before the proof was offered also. We were also within the "ALL" the sons of GOD who saw the proof when we saw the creation and sang HIS praise, Job 38:7.

3. Knowledge of the proof of GOD existing has no salvative value, so to believe HE is and is divine does not save you because the demons also know that and tremble.

Demons have no sacrifice to claim. Men do. Big difference.

Belief is not just to believe in God or about God. Saving Belief is believing also that He died for you. Demons have no such confidence nor sacrifice wherein to believe.

 

[TedT]

Demons have no sacrifice to claim. Men do. Big difference.

Belief is not just to believe in God or about God. Saving Belief is believing also that He died for you. Demons have no such confidence nor sacrifice wherein to believe.

I know what you mean but are not some men not equal to the demons, those men men called the people of the evil one, Matt 13:36-39, those condemned already for having never believed, Jn 3:18 and those men who are not HIS children, Deut 32:5?

 

[praise_yeshua]

I know what you mean but are not some men not equal to the demons, those men men called the people of the evil one, Matt 13:36-39, those condemned already for having never believed, Jn 3:18 and those men who are not HIS children, Deut 32:5?

Yes. The argument can be made but it must rightfully be recognizes that this is a result of men abandoning their own.

I've mentioned this several times recently but contrary to what most believe, We (humanity) are responsible for why other's do not believe. Not God. Men don't believe because of other men.....

We are our brother's keeper.

1Co 15:33 Do not be deceived: “Bad company corrupts good morals.”
1Co 15:34 Sober up as you should, and stop sinning! For some have no knowledge of God – I say this to your shame!

There is a "kind" of man among us that are less likely to accept the message of God but they are of our own making. Mankind has so abandoned their brethren in Adam that it is almost impossible to win any of them to Christ.

There must be something to "work with" when it comes to dealing with the Truth of God. Men are now trained to resist God over and over again. Multiple/many generations of the faithless learning to resist God.

You say some good things from time to time. I can recognize that you care about knowing the Truth. That you just don't "parrot" what you've heard.

We can discuss this. It is a good topic. Men should understand how we've gotten to where we've gotten in our time. Apostacy has taken place many times throughout humanity's existence. It is not something new.

 

[Presby02]

There is no wrath without knowledge.

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Have they not heard?

Rom 10:18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

There is no mystery with God. God has only declared Himself to mankind.

Unbelief willfully rejects knowledge of God.

Ummm... prime example of why you don't proof text.

Romans 1 is dealing with the existence of God. Romans 10 clearly refers to the gospel.

 

[TomL]

Ummm... prime example of why you don't proof text.

Romans 1 is dealing with the existence of God. Romans 10 clearly refers to the gospel.

He does not appear to deny that in arguing for a principle that disobedience of what is known is cause for wrath.

 

[civic]

He does not appear to deny that in arguing for a principle that disobedience of what is known is cause for wrath.

Romans 1:1,16 - the context dis describing the gospel.

next

 

[TomL]

Romans 1:1,16 - the context dis describing the gospel.

next

I do not believe it matters. Wrath is due for disobedience to known truth

 

[civic]

I do not believe it matters. Wrath is due for disobedience to known truth

I agree. Gods wrath falls on unrepentant sinners who reject the gospel.