The Law and Grace have always been simultaneously inacted

Truther

Active Member
Case in point, the tree of life is Grace to man and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil is Law to man. Grace gives everlasting life and Law gives death.

It all started with Adam and Eve.

They traded Grace for Law.

I traded Law for Grace on Oct 7, 1979.

I obeyed Acts 2:38 to get out from under the Law.
 
Case in point, the tree of life is Grace to man and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil is Law to man. Grace gives everlasting life and Law gives death.
God did not give His law with the goal of giving death to His people, but rather He is a loving Father who knows how to give gifts to His children that our for own good in order to bless us (Deuteronomy 6:24, 10:12-13), so you have not correctly identified the trees. Before Adam and Eve had eaten from either Tree, they were at a crossroads between morality and eternal life, where eating from the Tree of Knowledge caused them to become mortal while eating from the Tree of Life would have caused them to have eternal life. In Deuteronomy 30:15-20, the Israelites were at an identical crossroads where Moses presented a choice between life and death, life and a blessing for obedience to God's law and death and a curse for disobedience.

There are a number of ways that show that Eve's desire warped her perception (Genesis 3:6) and when our desire enters the picture, then it clouds out judgement so that we can no longer be in ourselves whether something is true good or if we just think that it is good because we desire it, and it is trusting in our clouded judgement of good and evil that leads to death. This is where Proverbs 3:5-7 comes into play, where we have the same choice of whether we are going to lean in our own understanding of right and wrong by doing what is right in our own eyes or whether we are going to trust in God with all of our heart to correctly divide between right and wrong through what He has instructed, and He will make our paths straight, and this is what it means to have faith. In Proverbs 3:18, she is a Tree of Life for all who take hold of her and those who hold her fast are called blessed. In other words, the point of everything in the Bible is to teach us how to undo the damage done by eating from the the Tree of Knowledge and to instead choose to eat from the Tree of Life.

In Deuteronomy 32:46-47, God's law is our very life. In Proverbs 6:23, for the commandment is a lamp and the teaching a light, and the reproofs of discipline are the way of life. In Matthew 19:17, Jesus said that the way to enter eternal life is by obeying God's commandments. In Luke 10:25-28, Jesus said that the way to inherit eternal life is by obeying the greatest two commandments. In Hebrews 5:9, Jesus has become a source of eternal salvation for those who obey him. In Revelation 22:14, those who kept God's commandments are given the right to eat from the Tree of Life. In Romans 2:6-7, those who persist in doing good will be given eternal life. In Romans 6:19-23, no longer presenting ourselves as slaves to impurity, lawlessness, and sin is contrasted with now presenting ourselves as slaves to God and to righteousness leading to sanctification, and the goal of sanctification is eternal life in Christ, which is the gift of God, so obedience to God's law is the content of His gift of eternal life.

It all started with Adam and Eve.

They traded Grace for Law.

I traded Law for Grace on Oct 7, 1979.

I obeyed Acts 2:38 to get out from under the Law.
In Psalms 119:29-30, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, and he chose the way of faithfulness by setting God's law before him, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith. In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way and that might know Him and Israel too, and in Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so knowing God and Jesus is the goal of the law, which again is eternal life (John 17:3). In Genesis 6:8-9, Noah found grace in the eyes of God, he was a righteous man, and he walked with God, so God was gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way in obedience to His law and he was righteous because he obeyed through faith. In Romans 1:5, we have received grace in order to bring about the obedience of faith. In Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so God graciously teaching us to do these works in obedience to His law is the content of His gift of salvation. So God is gracious to us by teaching us to obey His law, but you want God to be gracious to you instead of obeying His law.

In Acts 2:38, it calls for us to repent from our sins and in Romans 3:20, God's law is how we know what sin is, so getting out from under God's law is the opposite of obeying Acts 2:38.
 
God did not give His law with the goal of giving death to His people, but rather He is a loving Father who knows how to give gifts to His children that our for own good in order to bless us (Deuteronomy 6:24, 10:12-13), so you have not correctly identified the trees. Before Adam and Eve had eaten from either Tree, they were at a crossroads between morality and eternal life, where eating from the Tree of Knowledge caused them to become mortal while eating from the Tree of Life would have caused them to have eternal life. In Deuteronomy 30:15-20, the Israelites were at an identical crossroads where Moses presented a choice between life and death, life and a blessing for obedience to God's law and death and a curse for disobedience.
God's Law in the garden was broken, causing sin to enter the Garden and undo Grace. They were already eating of the tree of life and traded it for the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. From then on, man has been forbidden from the tree of life. It is transplanted now in the new Jerusalem
God did not give His law with the goal of giving death to His people, but rather He is a loving Father who knows how to give gifts to His children that our for own good in order to bless us (Deuteronomy 6:24, 10:12-13), so you have not correctly identified the trees. Before Adam and Eve had eaten from either Tree, they were at a crossroads between morality and eternal life, where eating from the Tree of Knowledge caused them to become mortal while eating from the Tree of Life would have caused them to have eternal life. In Deuteronomy 30:15-20, the Israelites were at an identical crossroads where Moses presented a choice between life and death, life and a blessing for obedience to God's law and death and a curse for disobedience.

There are a number of ways that show that Eve's desire warped her perception (Genesis 3:6) and when our desire enters the picture, then it clouds out judgement so that we can no longer be in ourselves whether something is true good or if we just think that it is good because we desire it, and it is trusting in our clouded judgement of good and evil that leads to death. This is where Proverbs 3:5-7 comes into play, where we have the same choice of whether we are going to lean in our own understanding of right and wrong by doing what is right in our own eyes or whether we are going to trust in God with all of our heart to correctly divide between right and wrong through what He has instructed, and He will make our paths straight, and this is what it means to have faith. In Proverbs 3:18, she is a Tree of Life for all who take hold of her and those who hold her fast are called blessed. In other words, the point of everything in the Bible is to teach us how to undo the damage done by eating from the the Tree of Knowledge and to instead choose to eat from the Tree of Life.

In Deuteronomy 32:46-47, God's law is our very life. In Proverbs 6:23, for the commandment is a lamp and the teaching a light, and the reproofs of discipline are the way of life. In Matthew 19:17, Jesus said that the way to enter eternal life is by obeying God's commandments. In Luke 10:25-28, Jesus said that the way to inherit eternal life is by obeying the greatest two commandments. In Hebrews 5:9, Jesus has become a source of eternal salvation for those who obey him. In Revelation 22:14, those who kept God's commandments are given the right to eat from the Tree of Life. In Romans 2:6-7, those who persist in doing good will be given eternal life. In Romans 6:19-23, no longer presenting ourselves as slaves to impurity, lawlessness, and sin is contrasted with now presenting ourselves as slaves to God and to righteousness leading to sanctification, and the goal of sanctification is eternal life in Christ, which is the gift of God, so obedience to God's law is the content of His gift of eternal life.


In Psalms 119:29-30, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, and he chose the way of faithfulness by setting God's law before him, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith. In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way and that might know Him and Israel too, and in Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so knowing God and Jesus is the goal of the law, which again is eternal life (John 17:3). In Genesis 6:8-9, Noah found grace in the eyes of God, he was a righteous man, and he walked with God, so God was gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way in obedience to His law and he was righteous because he obeyed through faith. In Romans 1:5, we have received grace in order to bring about the obedience of faith. In Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so God graciously teaching us to do these works in obedience to His law is the content of His gift of salvation. So God is gracious to us by teaching us to obey His law, but you want God to be gracious to you instead of obeying His law.

In Acts 2:38, it calls for us to repent from our sins and in Romans 3:20, God's law is how we know what sin is, so getting out from under God's law is the opposite of obeying Acts 2:38.

God's Law in the garden was broken, causing sin to enter the Garden and undo Grace. They were already eating of the tree of life and traded it for the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. From then on, man has been forbidden from the tree of life. It is transplanted now in the new Jerusalem City.

The tree of life will be available only then, for the healing of the nations.Rev 22.

Grace changed from the tree of life to killing animal sacrifices to appease God's wrath of man's sin.

Adam and Eve committed the worst sin that mankind has ever committed. Its effects hit every human being on earth. This Law was the ultimate Law that was broken.

In Acts 2:38, it calls for us to repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus for the remission of sins. You skipped the baptism part(left it out entirely).

Why did you do that?

That is in effect, skipping the sacrifice of Jesus(Grace).

This leaves you under the OT law.
 
Here is the Law of Moses per the NT teachings...

6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones,...


The OT Law including the 10 commandments was a "death ministry".

We include the death ministry in the NT church, we get death in return.

These commandments prosecute us before God.

They are not our friends.

They will sentence us to hell to be judged according to our works per Rev 20.

Our only escape is to be baptized in the name of Jesus for the REMISSION of OUR SINS, receive the Holy Ghost and walk in the Spirit per Gal 5 to get out and remain out from under the Law.

Posted from another section of the forum.
 
Yes, I agree both Law and Grace are simultaneously present and available.

However, it is not any form of legalism that leads one into Grace.

The real irony of it is this—Grace will produce more holiness and Law will produce more sin.
 
Yes, I agree both Law and Grace are simultaneously present and available.

However, it is not any form of legalism that leads one into Grace.

The real irony of it is this—Grace will produce more holiness and Law will produce more sin.
In fact, the Law is our schoolmaster to lead us to Christ(Grace).

And you are correct, the Law leads us to sin by exposing our sin. It is not friendly to us whatsoever.
 
Here is the Law of Moses per the NT teachings...

6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones,...


The OT Law including the 10 commandments was a "death ministry".

We include the death ministry in the NT church, we get death in return.

These commandments prosecute us before God.

They are not our friends.

They will sentence us to hell to be judged according to our works per Rev 20.

Our only escape is to be baptized in the name of Jesus for the REMISSION of OUR SINS, receive the Holy Ghost and walk in the Spirit per Gal 5 to get out and remain out from under the Law.

Posted from another section of the forum.
Post from another section of the forum:

Your post neglected to interact with what I said. In Jeremiah 31:33, the New Covenant involves following the Mosaic Law, in Ezekiel 36:25-27, the New Covenant involves the Spirit leading us to obey the Mosaic Law, and I listed some of many verses that support that obedience to the Mosaic Law brings like, so 2 Corinthians 3:6 needs to be interpreted in a manner that is in agreement with these other verses rather than a way that is contrary to them. If obeying the letter refers to correctly following what God has instructed, then God is leading us to death and shouldn't be trusted, but rather God leads us to life.

In Deuteronomy 30:11-20, the Mosaic Law is not too difficult for us to obey and obedience to it brings life and a blessing while disobedience brings death and a curse, so choose life! So it is a ministry of life for those who choose to obey it and the fact that it is a ministry of death for those who refuse to submit to it is not a very good reason for you to refuse to submit to it.

In Deuteronomy 6:24 and 10:12-13, it says that God's law was given for our own good, so God knows how to give good gifts to His children. There are also many verses like Psalms 119:1-3 that repeatedly say that obedience to God's law is the way to be blessed.

In Revelation 22:14, obedience to God's commandments is the only way to eat from the Tree of Life.

In Romans 8:4-7, those who walk in the Spirit are contrasted with those who have minds set on the flesh who are enemies of God who refuse to submit to the Mosaic Law, and in Galatians 5:19-23, everything listed as works of the flesh that are against the Spirit are also against the Mosaic Law while all of the fruits of the Spirit are aspects of God's nature that are in accordance with it.

The Mosaic Law is God's word and Jesus is God's word made flesh, so it is contradictory to have faith in God's word made flesh while refusing to have faith in God's word.
 
God's Law in the garden was broken, causing sin to enter the Garden and undo Grace. They were already eating of the tree of life and traded it for the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. From then on, man has been forbidden from the tree of life. It is transplanted now in the new Jerusalem City.
The Bible doesn't say that Adam and Eve were already eating from the Tree of Life. The Tree of Life was in the midst of the Garden, and they were not commanded against eating from it, so they had to option to do that before they had chose to eat from the Tree of Knowledge, but that option was removed after they did that.

The tree of life will be available only then, for the healing of the nations.Rev 22.
The Tree of life is available to those who obeyed God's commanded (Revelation 22:14).

Grace changed from the tree of life to killing animal sacrifices to appease God's wrath of man's sin.
Nowhere does the Bible say that.

In Acts 2:38, it calls for us to repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus for the remission of sins. You skipped the baptism part(left it out entirely).

Why did you do that?
I could have quoted Acts 2:38 more fully, but I specifically quoted what was revenant to show that it says that opposite of what you claimed it said. It didn't sound to me like you were making a point about baptism.

That is in effect, skipping the sacrifice of Jesus(Grace).
In Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to the Mosaic Law is the way to believe in what Jesus accomplished through the cross while returning to the lawlessness that he gave himself to redeem us from is what would be skipping what he gave himself to accomplish.

This leaves you under the OT law.
That is very good news in accordance with the Gospel called for us to repent from our disobedience to it and with Jesus being sent in fulfillment of the promise to bless us by turning us from our wickedness (Acts 3:25-26).
 
Post from another section of the forum:

Your post neglected to interact with what I said. In Jeremiah 31:33, the New Covenant involves following the Mosaic Law, in Ezekiel 36:25-27, the New Covenant involves the Spirit leading us to obey the Mosaic Law, and I listed some of many verses that support that obedience to the Mosaic Law brings like, so 2 Corinthians 3:6 needs to be interpreted in a manner that is in agreement with these other verses rather than a way that is contrary to them. If obeying the letter refers to correctly following what God has instructed, then God is leading us to death and shouldn't be trusted, but rather God leads us to life.

In Deuteronomy 30:11-20, the Mosaic Law is not too difficult for us to obey and obedience to it brings life and a blessing while disobedience brings death and a curse, so choose life! So it is a ministry of life for those who choose to obey it and the fact that it is a ministry of death for those who refuse to submit to it is not a very good reason for you to refuse to submit to it.

In Deuteronomy 6:24 and 10:12-13, it says that God's law was given for our own good, so God knows how to give good gifts to His children. There are also many verses like Psalms 119:1-3 that repeatedly say that obedience to God's law is the way to be blessed.

In Revelation 22:14, obedience to God's commandments is the only way to eat from the Tree of Life.

In Romans 8:4-7, those who walk in the Spirit are contrasted with those who have minds set on the flesh who are enemies of God who refuse to submit to the Mosaic Law, and in Galatians 5:19-23, everything listed as works of the flesh that are against the Spirit are also against the Mosaic Law while all of the fruits of the Spirit are aspects of God's nature that are in accordance with it.

The Mosaic Law is God's word and Jesus is God's word made flesh, so it is contradictory to have faith in God's word made flesh while refusing to have faith in God's word.
No, the New Covenant is not the Mosaic Law....


11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?

12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

Choose between Moses or Jesus.

It's that simple.

You can't choose both.
 
The Bible doesn't say that Adam and Eve were already eating from the Tree of Life. The Tree of Life was in the midst of the Garden, and they were not commanded against eating from it, so they had to option to do that before they had chose to eat from the Tree of Knowledge, but that option was removed after they did that.


The Tree of life is available to those who obeyed God's commanded (Revelation 22:14).


Nowhere does the Bible say that.


I could have quoted Acts 2:38 more fully, but I specifically quoted what was revenant to show that it says that opposite of what you claimed it said. It didn't sound to me like you were making a point about baptism.


In Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to the Mosaic Law is the way to believe in what Jesus accomplished through the cross while returning to the lawlessness that he gave himself to redeem us from is what would be skipping what he gave himself to accomplish.


That is very good news in accordance with the Gospel called for us to repent from our disobedience to it and with Jesus being sent in fulfillment of the promise to bless us by turning us from our wickedness (Acts 3:25-26).
9 And out of the ground made the Lord God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil....

16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:...


They could eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil but not the tree of life?

Who says?
 
9 And out of the ground made the Lord God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil....

16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:...
Indeed, the Tree of Life was in the Garden and they were given permission to eat from any tree in the Garden except the Tree of Knowledge, so they had the option to choose to eat from the Tree of Life, but it doesn't say that they choose to take that option before they chose to eat from the Tree of Knowledge.

They could eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil but not the tree of life?

Who says?
No me.
 
Indeed, the Tree of Life was in the Garden and they were given permission to eat from any tree in the Garden except the Tree of Knowledge, so they had the option to choose to eat from the Tree of Life, but it doesn't say that they choose to take that option before they chose to eat from the Tree of Knowledge.


No me.
Look....

24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

Why?
 
Could it be possibly it could prevent them from dying?

Right, so now you know how they continued to live in Eden.

Cause and effect.
 
The next time we see the tree of life is on the new earth(in the new heaven)....for the healing of the nations.

Cause and effect.
 
Look....

24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

Why?
To keep them from eating from the tree lest they eat of it and live forever.
 
FYI. The tree of life is found in heaven now...for the healing of the nations specifically. This means humans will have to partake of it there(on the new earth) too.
 
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