The Issue of Limited Atonement

[Jim]

No one was born again until Pentecost period. The disciples were not born again until Pentecost. Jesus taught and told them to tarry until Pentecost when the Holy Spirit would be with them and IN THEM. Not before Pentecost. It was at that time when they would be transformed inwardly by the power of the Holy Spirit working in them and through them. As Jesus told them it is better for you that I go away and send the Helper/Comforter who would lead them and guide them into all truth and bring to them remembrance of everything he had taught them. Until Pentecost they were still in hiding and fearful, carnal and in the flesh, not in the Spirit.

The disciples did not understand the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus which is the gospel. They did not believe it until they physically saw Jesus Resurrected from the dead.

Matthew 16:8-11
Aware of their discussion, Jesus asked, “You of little faith, why are you talking among yourselves about having no bread? 9 Do you still not understand? Don’t you remember the five loaves for the five thousand, and how many basketfuls you gathered? 10 Or the seven loaves for the four thousand, and how many basketfuls you gathered? 11 How is it you don’t understand that I was not talking to you about bread?

Mark 7:18
And he saith unto them, Are ye so without understanding also? Do ye not perceive, that whatsoever thing from without entereth into the man, it cannot defile him;

Mark 8:31-33
He then began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders, the chief priests and the teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and after three days rise again. 32 He spoke plainly about this, and Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him. 33 But when Jesus turned and looked at his disciples, he rebuked Peter. “Get behind me, Satan!” he said. “You do not have in mind the concerns of God, but merely human concerns.”

Luke 9:43-45
While everyone was marveling at all that Jesus did, he said to his disciples, 44 “Listen carefully to what I am about to tell you: The Son of Man is going to be delivered into the hands of men.” 45 But they did not understand what this meant. It was hidden from them, so that they did not grasp it, and they were afraid to ask him about it.

Jesus predicts His death a 3rd time

Luke 18:31-34
Jesus took the Twelve aside and told them, “We are going up to Jerusalem, and everything that is written by the prophets about the Son of Man will be fulfilled. 32 He will be delivered over to the Gentiles. They will mock him, insult him and spit on him; 33 they will flog him and kill him. On the third day he will rise again.” 34 The disciples did not understand any of this. Its meaning was hidden from them, and they did not know what he was talking about.


Luke 24:25-26
He said to them, “How foolish you are, and how slow to believe all that the prophets have spoken! 26 Did not the Messiah have to suffer these things and then enter his glory?

John 7:39
By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.

John 12:16
At first His disciples did not understand these things, but after Jesus was glorified they remembered what had been done to Him, and they realized that these very things had also been written about Him.

John 13
Jesus replied, “You do not realize now what I am doing, but later you will understand…. I am telling you now before it happens, so that when it does happen you will believe that I am who I am.”

Jesus promised the disciples He would bring to their remembrance when Pentecost came and the Holy Spirit would be in them and guide them into all truth.

John 14:26
But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you

John 16:7
"It is expedient for you that I go away; for if I go not away the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart I will send him unto you."

John 16:13
But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.

conclusion: calvinism has it all wrong. belief precedes life-the new birth as demonstrated in my other posts. the bible speaks with one voice in unity which calvinism contradicts and confuses its followers.

hope this helps !!!

AMEN and AMEN and AMEN ! ! !

And I would add that is the essence of the New Covenant in Jeremiah 31 and Ezekiel 11 and 36.

 

[civic]

@civic

I find it disturbing that we are called to defend such a position. As I said in my post above this morning that this is a preposterous/absurd statement to even allow oneself to think that those saints in the OT did what they did through the energy of the flesh apart from the Spirit of the Living God being in them, that is in the new man, that was given to them when they were born of God.

Let us consider a few scriptures which will proves that the new birth was taught all through the OT, not with the same plainness of speech as it is in the NT, yet sound reason and sound judgment understands that it was a necessity then, just as it is now, before anyone can do spiritual acts pleasing unto God.

Psalms 100:3​

“Know ye that the LORD he is God: it is he that hath made us, and not we ourselves; we are his people, and the sheep of his pasture.”

1. folks in the OT knew the necessity of the new birth by the Spirit of God before they could do works pleasing to God. David knew that it was God that made them who they were, they did not do what they did by and of themselves. Why do you think Jesus upbraided Nicodemus for not knowing the necessity of the new birth if it was not a OT truth? Because it was a truth taught by the facts that before any man could do spiritual acts pleasing to God they must be made saints of God, which the term of itself proves the necessity of the new birth and proving it was taught/known.

2. The salvation in the OT is just the same as it is in the NT, and vice versa, which proves the necessity of the new birth.

Galatians 3:9​

“So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.”

NT believers are children of Abraham, and both become children of God the very same manner, by the election of grace, and in time by the new birth. God called us the same way the he called Abraham, and Abraham the same way he called us!

Isaiah 51:2​

“Look unto Abraham your father, and unto Sarah that bare you: for I called him alone, and blessed him, and increased him.”

3. The Spirit that came upon men in the OT was IN THEM before at certain times they did certain acts performed by the Spirit.

We read in Genesis 41:38 that the Holy Spirit was “in” Joseph. If you compare Numbers 27:18 with Deuteronomy 34:9 you will find that the Holy Spirit came upon Joshua because the Holy Spirit was “in” him beforehand. Daniel was a man in whom the Holy Spirit indwelt (Daniel 4:8,9 18; 5:11,14; 6:3). The Apostle Peter states plainly in 1st Peter 1;11 that the Spirit of Christ was “in” the Old Testament prophets. The Apostle Paul in2md Corinthians 4:13 clearly quotes Psalms 116:10; as proving that David along with New Testament believers possessed the Holy Spirit. John the Baptist had the filling of the Holy Spirit from a child (Luke 1:15). Jesus taught that Old Testament believers experienced regeneration by the Holy Spirit by the fact that he unbraided Nicodemus for not knowing this truth being a master in Israel. John 14:17 Jesus said that the Holy Spirit already indwelt this disciples. In John 20:22, Jesus communicated (knowledge of receiving the availability) the Holy Spirit to His disciples.

4. In addition to the above plain statements of Scripture, Romans 8:9-11; 1st Corinthians 2:10-16; make the indwelling of the Holy Spirit essential to salvation and proof of ownership. No one could be saved without the indwelling of the Spirit and the fruits of the Spirit living out of them.

5. Why Pentecost?

Neither the subject of salvation or of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is mentioned in connection with Pentecost as far as the disciples. The disciples were already saved (Luke 10:20; John 15:13,4,5; 17:14 and many more). They had already been given a divine revelation of whom Jesus was, which rock Christ has and will build his church. See Matthew 16:13-18.

Pentecost was given to show the world of a new rellgion has come to take the place of the Jewish rellgion that had dominated the world for around two thousand years. And this rellgion has the Spirit of God working through them with the evidence (at that time during the reformation period of going from the OT to the NT) speaking in tongues which was other known language other than their own, by men and women who were for the most part uneducated. This new religion of Jesus Christ was not just born, but in truth has been in the world since Abel, yet now its King has come and died and is reigning from his father's David throne and had sent forth his Spirit to empower his followers with the power to spread forth the truths of the kingdom. This coming of the Spirit is a sign to all of the elect that they have all they need to do their Lord's work until he come again to received them unto himself which he has promised to do. The apostles were not born again on Pentecost, that is so absurd to even allow that thought to com into one's heart.

Enough for now.

I fing it "disturbing" that you deny all the scriptures I quoted from Jesus on Pentecost and the future work of Holy Spirit.
Try addressing the passages I quoted from Jesus instead of avoiding them like the plague.

next fallacy.

hope this helps !!!

 

[civic]

AMEN and AMEN and AMEN ! ! !

And I would add that is the essence of the New Covenant in Jeremiah 31 and Ezekiel 11 and 36.

Amen

 

[Red Baker]

@FreeInChrist

Just my 2 cents worth not looking to engage.

I understand you are not looking to debate this with me, no problem. But, I cannot allow you to add your thoughts without addressing them.

I don’t think @civic is denying God’s grace at all. The question is about responsibility.

I never said he was denying God's grace, even though he does not have a scriptural understanding of the grace of God, since you brought this up. He was speaking concerning the roles of faith in regeneration as we were at that moment, but threads many times go from one thought to another.

I fully understand the role of faith and our (believers) responsibility to have faith in God as children of God, but to take those commandments and apply them to all men without distinction is corrupting scriptures, as though man in the flesh can at anytime decide to have faith in God when it is convenient for him to do so, we reject as hersey.

The prophets repeatedly called the people to repent and return.

Yes, God's profess people, they did not go down to Egypt and preach to them to repent and return unto God since as a whole God left that nation (and most of the world at that time) to died in their sins.

Yes, Jeremiah 24:7 says God gives a heart to know Him. Amen .....salvation is always rooted in God’s mercy. But that does not remove the consistent biblical pattern that man is responsible to believe when God speaks.

To those whom God opens their hearts per this verse, yes "it IS" their responsibility to believe and fear God when he speaks.

Hebrews 11 highlights men and women who acted “by faith.” It never says they were passive or acted irresistibly. It presents faith as their response to God’s revealed word.

They were passive in regeneration, and afterwards responsible to walk worthy of their vocation per many verse.

So I don’t see this as denying grace ....

One denies God's grace when they put this responsibility upon those still living in the flesh as though they have the power to do so.

 

[FreeInChrist]

@FreeInChrist

I understand you are not looking to debate this with me, no problem. But, I cannot allow you to add your thoughts without addressing them.

I never said he was denying God's grace, even though he does not have a scriptural understanding of the grace of God, since you brought this up. He was speaking concerning the roles of faith in regeneration as we were at that moment, but threads many times go from one thought to another.

I fully understand the role of faith and our (believers) responsibility to have faith in God as children of God, but to take those commandments and apply them to all men without distinction is corrupting scriptures, as though man in the flesh can at anytime decide to have faith in God when it is convenient for him to do so, we reject as hersey.

Yes, God's profess people, they did not go down to Egypt and preach to them to repent and return unto God since as a whole God left that nation (and most of the world at that time) to died in their sins.

To those whom God opens their hearts per this verse, yes "it IS" their responsibility to believe and fear God when he speaks.

They were passive in regeneration, and afterwards responsible to walk worthy of their vocation per many verse.

One denies God's grace when they put this responsibility upon those still living in the flesh as though they have the power to do so.

Did you see this thread? You are tagged in it.

Thread 'Faith and Divine Initiation in the Old Testament'

Friday at 3:44 AM

@Red Baker,

I’ve been following your interaction with @civic in the Limited Atonement thread, and you raised an important theological claim that I think deserves its own focused discussion.

You stated that it would be “preposterous/absurd” to suggest that the saints of the Old Testament acted in faith apart from being born again ~ that the Spirit of God must have already regenerated them in order for them to do what Hebrews 11 records.

Rather than continue that discussion inside another thread, I wanted to open a separate space specifically on this question:
...

• FreeInChrist
• Replies: 4
• Forum: Controversial Teaching

 

[synergy]

@synery

Really? No scripture are either for Calvinism, and certainly not Armenianism, scriptures declare God's testimony of the truth, and John 1:10-13 the Spirit of God is declaring a truth that you reject and fight against, which is not wise on your part, for you will surely lose this fight.

John 1:10-13​

“He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.”

So clear to him that understand:

Proverbs 8:9​

“They are all plain to him that understandeth, and right to them that find knowledge.”

You men/women are void of understanding and true biblical knowledge concerning this truth. All one needs to do is follow the flow of the context from verses 10-13 of John 1, and they will give you God's truth on regeneration and the new birth. Here it is:

1. Jesus Christ was in the world and the world was made by him since he was God manifest in the flesh, yet the world as a whole did not know him. Verse 10 Any disagreement here? Well, yes if you deny the deity of Christ, other than that, there should no disagreement.

2. Jesus came unto the Jewish people through whom he was born into the world, yet as a whole, the Jews did not receive him. Again, any disagreement concerning this truth from heaven? Should not be.

3. But, there were some that did receive him and the Holy Ghost tells us who they are: .....to them gave he power to become the sons of God... Notice TO THEM gave he power to become sons of God! There should be no disagreement concerning these words, if we follow the flow of them. Even more than this is the next verse which is the Holy Ghost's commentary concering verse 12!

4. Verse 13, clearly interprets for us verses 10-12 which clearly states: "Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.”

If any man reads this one scripture and continue to teach that a preacher holds the gift to get folks born again, or the sinner by his own will has the power to hear, believe repent, then that person is deliberately calling God's word a lair, and his true truer than the word of God. That is one proud person, with whom the judgment of God will fall upon to either correct him, or add to his darkness that he/she is showing. Selah

Of course God holds the power. What I'm arguing for is that only to them that received Jesus does God allow only them to be born of God. You said it yourself, see below. That proves that belief comes before regeneration. Thanks for helping us to slay Calvinism.

.But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name.

3. But, there were some that did receive him and the Holy Ghost tells us who they are: .....to them gave he power to become the sons of God...

 

[Red Baker]

Of course God holds the power. What I'm arguing for is that only to them that received Jesus does God allow only them to be born of God. You said it yourself, see below. That proves that belief comes before regeneration. Thanks for helping us to slay Calvinism.

Pitiful that you cannot see what I said was the truth, again follow closely if you can:

.But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name.

3. But, there were some that did receive him and the Holy Ghost tells us who they are: .....to them gave he power to become the sons of God...

The Spirit of God said: those that received Christ TO THEM GAVE HE POWER TO DO SO!

All you are doing, if one can just follow the flow of words is showing just how blind you are! "The power" to believe comes from God himself which is in agreement with verse 13. Learn to rightly divide the word of God, which at the moment you have no clue.

 

[civic]

Pitiful that you cannot see what I said was the truth, again follow closely if you can:


The Spirit of God said: those that received Christ TO THEM GAVE HE POWER TO DO SO!

All you are doing, if one can just follow the flow of words is showing just how blind you are! "The power" to believe comes from God himself which is in agreement with verse 13. Learn to rightly divide the word of God, which at the moment you have no clue.

Receive/believe are synonomous terms and occur at the same time-proor to salvation, eternal life, new birth, born again etc......

Ezekiel 18:30-32
“Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel? For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!

Notice what comes first

1- Repent , turn away from sin
2- the after you repent you get a new heart/spirit ( calvinism- regeneration, new life)
3- repent then you live, have life- ie new heart, spirit.

John has the same order in in his opening of the gospel and in his purpose statement for writing his gospel.

John 1:12-13
“Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

Same order as above receive, believe, call on Him then the new birth follows.

John 20:31
“But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

Once again the order is consistent with the OT- belief/repentance precedes life.


Romans 10:8-13
But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: 9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. 11 As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.” 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

Again above we see its hearing the gospel, believing the message , confessing then calling upon the Lord results in salvation.

Acts tells us the same order in 11:18- "So then, God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life.” Repent precedes life.

Paul confirms the order in Ephesians below as well. Hearing and believing precedes the Holy Spirit that we were sealed with not before belief.

Ephesians 1:13
“And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit

James and Peter have the same exact order in James 1:18 , 1 Peter 1:23.

Jesus also taught that a persons faith comes before they are healed or saved. The saving/healing doesn't come before faith. Calvinism has it just the opposite.

Here is how some would rewrite Jesus words below and add to scripture things that were never said nor implied.

Parenthesis is Calvinism false assertion below that God gives faith. Jesus said it was THEIR faith that saved them.

Luke 7:50
And he said to the woman, Thy faith ( I have given you )hath saved thee; go in peace.

Luke 8:48
"Daughter," said Jesus, "your faith ( I have given you )has healed you. Go in peace."

Luke 17:19
Then Jesus said to him, "Rise and go; your faith( I have given you ) has made you well!"

Luke 18:42
"Receive your sight!" Jesus replied. "Your faith( I have give you ) has healed you."

Matthew 8:10
When Jesus heard this, He marveled and said to those following Him, "Truly I tell you, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith.

Matthew 8:13
Then Jesus said to the centurion, "Go! As you have believed, so will it be done for you." And his servant was healed at that very hour.

Matthew 9:2
Just then some men brought to Him a paralytic lying on a mat. When Jesus saw their faith, He said to the paralytic, "Take courage, son; your sins are forgiven.

Matthew 9:22
Jesus turned and saw her. "Take courage, daughter," He said, "your faith has healed you." And the woman was cured from that very hour.

Matthew 9:29
Then He touched their eyes and said, "According to your faith will it be done to you."

Matthew 15:28
"O woman," Jesus answered, "your faith is great! Let it be done for you as you desire." And her daughter was healed from that very hour.

Mark 5:34
"Daughter," said Jesus, "your faith has healed you. Go in peace and be free of your affliction."

Mark 10:52
"Go," said Jesus, "your faith has healed you." And immediately he received his sight and followed Jesus along the road.

John 4:53
So the father knew that it was at the same hour, in the which Jesus said unto him, Thy son liveth: and himself believed, and his whole house.

See how scripture is consistent when you do not read your doctrine into it but read it objectively, without bias ?
Calvinism has it backwards with life,regeneration, the new birth preceding faith.

conclusion: as we read in these SALVIFIC passages there is a consistent order.

1- hearing the word, the gospel
2- believing the gospel
3- receiving the gospel
4- calling upon the Lord
5- confessing Jesus is Lord
6- resulting in the new birth, born of God, salvation, eternal life


The Biblical Order Salutis

Summary of The Biblical order- notice where new life, regeneration is on the list from Scripture.

1- the preaching of the gospel- Rom 10
2- the hearing of the gospel- Rom 10
3- belief in the gospel- John 1:12
4- receiving the gospel- John 1:12
5- repentance Luke 5:32
6- the new birth that results in #7
7- salvation, eternal life- John 1:13
8- Justification- Rom 8:30
9- Sanctification- Rom 8
10- Glorification Rom 8:30


hope this helps !!!

 

[brightfame52]

The spiritual man in 1 Corinthians 2 is the man who receives divine inspiration by the Holy Spirit,

Yes because he has been regenerated, given the Spirit 1 Cor 2:12

12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

Without the Spirt of being born again we cant know the things of God as Per Jn 3:3

Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
That word see can also be rendered Know it is the word horaō:

1. to see with the mind, to perceive, know

without the Spirit in regeneration we are natural men only and dont have the spiritual capacity to spiritually discrn spiritual kingdom matters 1 Cor 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

For instance, the Gospel of the Cross is foolishness to the natural man 1 Cor 1:18

8 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

The natural man in that condition is of them that perish

 

[civic]

Yes because he has been regenerated, given the Spirit 1 Cor 2:12

12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

Without the Spirt of being born again we cant know the things of God as Per Jn 3:3

Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
That word see can also be rendered Know it is the word horaō:

1. to see with the mind, to perceive, know

without the Spirit in regeneration we are natural men only and dont have the spiritual capacity to spiritually discrn spiritual kingdom matters 1 Cor 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

For instance, the Gospel of the Cross is foolishness to the natural man 1 Cor 1:18

8 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

The natural man in that condition is of them that perish

nope the carnal man is just a believer acting in the flesh, not the spirit- keep reading chapter 3- CONTEXT IS KING

The same "carnal"people in the previous chapter Paul still addresses them below:

1 Corinthians 3:1
And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.

next fallacy..............

hope this helps !!!

 

[civic]

I mean c'mon are some so filled with pride they think they operate in the spirit 24/7 and never in the flesh with the carnal mind ?

hello people wake up-

pride comes before a fall
God resists the proud but gives grace to the humble.

 

[brightfame52]

nope the carnal man is just a believer acting in the flesh,

False, but a spiritual man may act carnally at times. But the natural man can only be carnal, thats his only nature. But the born again Spiritual man has two natures, and he may come under the influence of one or the other. Not so with the natural man, he will always be under the influence of the carnal flesh, even in his most sincere religious endeavors.

 

[Jim]

Did you see this thread? You are tagged in it.

Thread 'Faith and Divine Initiation in the Old Testament'

Friday at 3:44 AM

@Red Baker,

I’ve been following your interaction with @civic in the Limited Atonement thread, and you raised an important theological claim that I think deserves its own focused discussion.

You stated that it would be “preposterous/absurd” to suggest that the saints of the Old Testament acted in faith apart from being born again ~ that the Spirit of God must have already regenerated them in order for them to do what Hebrews 11 records.

Rather than continue that discussion inside another thread, I wanted to open a separate space specifically on this question:
...

• FreeInChrist
• Replies: 4
• Forum: Controversial Teaching

@FreeInChrist,
If you adhere to the false doctrine of Total Depravity, you have no choice but to also adhere to the false notion that intentionally responding positively to God in any way whatsoever requires you to have been born again. That is the sum total of what Total Depravity is. Once you accept Total Depravity as truth, it doesn't matter about any other passage of scripture. It must be ignored or restated and analyzed in such a way as to make it fit.

 

[civic]

False, but a spiritual man may act carnally at times. But the natural man can only be carnal, thats his only nature. But the born again Spiritual man has two natures, and he may come under the influence of one or the other. Not so with the natural man, he will always be under the influence of the carnal flesh, even in his most sincere religious endeavors.

I just proved it from Paul- they were believers, not unbelievers. Read 1 Corinthians 3:1 again. Pauls calls them BRETHREN, CARNAL, BABES IN CHRIST who he could not speak to them as spiritual. Its the same people he addressed as carnal in chapter 2.


1 Corinthians 3:1
And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.

 

[brightfame52]

I just proved it from Paul- they were believers, not unbelievers. Read 1 Corinthians 3:1 again. Pauls calls them BRETHREN, CARNAL, BABES IN CHRIST who he could not speak to them as spiritual. Its the same people he addressed as carnal in chapter 2.


1 Corinthians 3:1
And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.

but a spiritual man may act carnally at times.

 

[civic]

but a spiritual man may act carnally at times.

Of course like the Corinthians

 

[brightfame52]

Of course like the Corinthians

Well I have known that for the past 40 years

 

[FreeInChrist]

@FreeInChrist,
If you adhere to the false doctrine of Total Depravity, you have no choice but to also adhere to the false notion that intentionally responding positively to God in any way whatsoever requires you to have been born again. That is the sum total of what Total Depravity is. Once you accept Total Depravity as truth, it doesn't matter about any other passage of scripture. It must be ignored or restated and analyzed in such a way as to make it fit.

@Jim... this is what I wrote in that other link.

@Red Baker,

I’ve been following your interaction with @civic in the Limited Atonement thread, and you raised an important theological claim that I think deserves its own focused discussion.

You stated that it would be “preposterous/absurd” to suggest that the saints of the Old Testament acted in faith apart from being born again ~ that the Spirit of God must have already regenerated them in order for them to do what Hebrews 11 records.

Rather than continue that discussion inside another thread, I wanted to open a separate space specifically on this question:

Were Old Testament saints regenerated (born again) in the same sense as New Covenant believers?

Before we go further, I want to clarify something about my own position.

I do not deny predestination. I fully believe that certain individuals — such as Jeremiah, the prophets, the apostles, and others — were set apart by God for specific purposes in redemptive history (Jeremiah 1:5 being an obvious example).


However, I do not automatically conclude from that language that;

1. Every believer in the Old Testament was regenerated in the New Covenant sense, or

2.That faith itself was irresistibly infused rather than responsively exercised.

Hebrews 11 repeatedly says “by faith” ~ it presents their faith as active trust in response to God’s revealed word. The text does not explicitly state they were born again prior to believing.

So my question is simple and sincere:

What is the biblical basis for asserting that regeneration preceded faith in the Old Testament?

I’m not looking for a heated exchange .....just clarity on how you see Scripture supporting that claim.

Looking forward to your thoughts.

Then I made the next reply to Red's question.

@Red Baker For clarity, I was referring to certain individuals being set apart for specific roles or service in redemptive history (such as Jeremiah in Jer 1:5), not making a statement about how anyone is saved from sin.

Where in the world do you see that I am for Total Depravity as I always preach against Calvin and Tulip... Do I sound like I do with these posts?

 

[brightfame52]

What is the biblical basis for asserting that regeneration preceded faith in the Old Testament?

Faith is the fruit of the Spirit Gal 5 22 also Rom 8:8 applies to the unregenerate no matter in OT or NT. So in order for Enoch to have pleased God and have Faith Heb 11:5 he as any other fallen child of Adam had to be regenerated by the Spirit first in order to please God. If OT Enoch pleased God with Faith without first being regenerated, that would contradict the Spirits teaching in Rom 8:8

 

[synergy]

Pitiful that you cannot see what I said was the truth, again follow closely if you can:

The Spirit of God said: those that received Christ TO THEM GAVE HE POWER TO DO SO!

All you are doing, if one can just follow the flow of words is showing just how blind you are! "The power" to believe comes from God himself which is in agreement with verse 13. Learn to rightly divide the word of God, which at the moment you have no clue.

Where does it say that God gave them the power to believe??? The verses say that God gave them the power to become sons of God. Pitiful that you cannot read and accept what's actually written in the text.

Anyways, you already proved that belief comes before regeneration with your statements below. Thanks for helping us to slay Calvinism.

.But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name.

3. But, there were some that did receive him and the Holy Ghost tells us who they are: .....to them gave he power to become the sons of God...