The Importance of Obedience in Knowing God

[Fellow Traveler]

I know him, He's my King.
I'm the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. Hab 2.4.



It is the Lord [Himself] Who examines and judges me. 1 CORINTHIANS 4:4

 

[Fellow Traveler]

Ephesians 6:9 (WEB)
You masters, do the same things to them, and give up threatening,
knowing that he who is both their Master and yours is in heaven,
and there is no partiality with him.

 

[Fellow Traveler]

Obedience Is Active and Passive. The nature of Christ’s obedience is at the center of what it means to be justified. Christ’s obedience is sometimes divided between “active” and “passive” obedience. The idea is that Christ, as the second Adam and in contrast with the first Adam, obeyed the Father in life, and that active obedience is imputed to us.

“A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. 35 By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.” John 13:34-35

We need to be obedient to that commandment that Jesus gave us.

 

[Behold]

Do you know him?

Philippians 3:9

Philippians 1:6

 

[DavidTree]

The Bible calls us to be imitators of Christ. So if he was obedient don't you think we ought to be obedient? Or you can just do your own thing wander around in the wilderness for 40 years.

Of course we are to be obedient to Christ.

The MAIN TRUTH of the Gospel is that it is ONLY Christ's PERFECT Obedience to the FATHER that SAVED us.

You, myself and everyone else will NEVER have PERFECT obedience unto God.

This does not negate our responsibility but places the EMPHASIS on our DEPENDENCE upon Christ and the Holy Spirit.

 

[Fellow Traveler]

Of course we are to be obedient to Christ.

The MAIN TRUTH of the Gospel is that it is ONLY Christ's PERFECT Obedience to the FATHER that SAVED us.

You, myself and everyone else will NEVER have PERFECT obedience unto God.

This does not negate our responsibility but places the EMPHASIS on our DEPENDENCE upon Christ and the Holy Spirit.

I agree wholeheartedly, But not everyone here does.

 

[Studyman]

Its not the people who "try to be like Christ".. who know Him.

Its the BORN AGAIN.....who Know Him., and there is no other way to Know Him.

Imitating Christ, according to your imagining Him to be, is useless, as that is ACTING, and that has nothing to do with true discipleship @Studyman

Really? So then, in your religion, when the Jesus "of the bible", not to be confused with the image of God created by religious men that we see plastered on billboards and manmade shrines of worship etc., commands His People to "Be ye perfect, even as your Father in heaven is perfect", and a man strives to obey this Jesus, you call this man a fake for striving to obey this same Christ?

So then, in your stated religion, when Paul says;

Phil. 3: 12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: "but I follow after", if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

13 Brethren, I count "not myself" to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, 14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

You preach that Paul is only acting, only "Trying to be perfect Like Christ" as he presses toward the Perfection Jesus commanded? And that Paul is not a True Disciple of Christ because if he was truly "Born Again", he would already be perfect even as the God and Father of the Lord's Christ is perfect?

But others, because they transform themself into an Apostle of Christ, and promote the popular image of God created by man after the imagination of their own heart as to how they imagine Him to be, are the true Disciple of Christ.

I understand the Philosophy and the hubris associated with it, being surrounded by it for 65 years. But the Scriptures don't teach any such thing.

Romans 2: 7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing "seek for" glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

So if it's not People like Paul and Peter who, from the heart, were "striving against sin" to "be like the Christ of the Bible" and "Walk even as HE walked", as instructed, then who knows Him?

 

[dwight92070]

Doug - It was a moot point at that point in time, because they were still under the OT. Baptism did not matter for salvation until after Jesus died. And confessing Jesus as Lord, the confession upon which the Church is built (Matt 16:16, 18) was not yet made known to the World by the Holy Spirit.

Dwight quoting Doug - "Baptism did not matter for salvation until after Jesus died. And confessing Jesus as Lord, the confession upon which the Church is built (Matt 16:16, 18) was not yet made known to the world by the Holy Spirit."

Dwight - Really? So none of the twelve apostles were saved, because we have no record of them being baptized after Jesus died? In fact none of the 120 persons in the upper room were saved, because there is no record of them being baptized after Jesus died. I can't believe the lengths that you will go to, and the "facts" that you will make up to support your false teaching.

The truth is that all twelve apostles and all 120 disciples (Peter calls them brethren) were baptized long before Jesus died. We have record of the twelve baptizing new disciples, but Jesus Himself was not baptizing. John 4:1-2 I think it is obvious that the disciples baptized each other, since Jesus Himself baptized no one, and they did it in obedience to Him. Did you notice the order there in verse 1? "Jesus was making and baptizing more disciples (disciple always means Christians in the New Testament Acts 11:26) than John"

So before Christ died, new Christians (although they were called disciples then) first believed, then later were baptized. The same is true today, first people become a Christian, then later they get baptized. First they are saved, then after that they are baptized.

The truth is that baptism "did not matter for salvation" either before Jesus died or after. In both cases, they were saved first, and baptized sometime after, which only symbolized salvation.

Dwight quoting Doug - "And confessing Jesus as Lord, the confession upon which the Church is built (Matt 16:16, 18) was not yet made known to the world by the Holy Spirit."

Dwight - Now let's look at your second made-up "fact." Confessing "Jesus is Lord" is not the same as "You are the Christ, the Son of the Living God". The first confession acknowledges Jesus as being the highest authority, particularly over ourselves. The second confession identifies Jesus as the long awaited Messiah and the Son of God. It is not the same confession.
Also, you said that the confession was not yet made known to the world. So when was it made known to the world? The first time we ever hear of it is Romans 10:9-10, which was approximately 57 -58 A.D.
So what happens to the poor souls who thought they got saved between Jesus' death, at about 30 A.D. and 57 A,D,? That's 27 years that new Christians did not know that they had to confess Jesus as Lord in order to be saved. Were all of those people lost?

You said that when the new Christians in Acts 2:38 were baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, that that was the same as them confessing "Jesus is Lord". Not true at all. Whoever baptized them was speaking the words "in the name of Jesus Christ", not the persons themselves. Also "in the name of Jesus Christ" is not the same as "Jesus is Lord", so you got it wrong again. There was no confession recorded of them saying "Jesus is Lord".

Also Acts 2:38 was the Day of Pentecost, which was 50 days after Jesus was killed, so the year was about 30 A.D. Paul did not make confessing "Jesus is Lord" a "requirement for salvation" until about 57-58 A.D. So these new Christians had not even heard of such a "requirement". So according to your "doctrine", they were lost.

 

[Behold]

"Be ye perfect, even as your Father in heaven is perfect",

You'll never make it. @Studyman

So, what real Christians do, is.. "present your body as a living sacrifice to God, as your reasonable service"

The born again do this as discipleship.
The water baptized and religious do this as their idea of trying to go to heaven.

So then, in your stated religion, when Paul says;

Phil. 3: 12 Not as though I had already attained,

If you own a bible, then go back a few verses and find out that Paul is talking about the Resurrection.
You dont know this, as you are not really a student of the word.

You preach that Paul is only acting, only "

No, i "preach" that we are to follow Paul, as Paul stated.

"be a follower of ME, as i follow Christ".

 

[dwight92070]

I notice Doug does not want to answer #108 and I understand why.

 

[Doug Brents]

I notice Doug does not want to answer #108 and I understand why.

Nope, I never saw it. I didn't get a notification that you replied to any comment I had made. I'm sorry that your statement didn't show up as a reply to any comment I made and so generate a notification to myself.

 

[Doug Brents]

Dwight - Really? So none of the twelve apostles were saved, because we have no record of them being baptized after Jesus died? In fact none of the 120 persons in the upper room were saved, because there is no record of them being baptized after Jesus died. I can't believe the lengths that you will go to, and the "facts" that you will make up to support your false teaching.

LOL, There is so much we are not told in Scripture. As John says, "But there are also many other things which Jesus did, which, if they were written in detail, I expect that even the world itself would not contain the books that would be written." We know that the Apostles, and the 120 also, were saved, so we can surmise that they were baptized at some point. It may have been on Pentecost, we don't know. But we do know that they had to have been baptized into Christ.

The truth is that all twelve apostles and all 120 disciples (Peter calls them brethren) were baptized long before Jesus died. We have record of the twelve baptizing new disciples, but Jesus Himself was not baptizing. John 4:1-2 I think it is obvious that the disciples baptized each other, since Jesus Himself baptized no one, and they did it in obedience to Him. Did you notice the order there in verse 1? "Jesus was making and baptizing more disciples (disciple always means Christians in the New Testament Acts 11:26) than John"

No, disciple does not always mean Christian in the NT. in Acts 19:1-5, Paul meets some disciples who were not Christian at all. They were followers of John, not Christ yet, and had only been baptized into John's baptism.

So before Christ died, new Christians (although they were called disciples then) first believed, then later were baptized. The same is true today, first people become a Christian, then later they get baptized. First they are saved, then after that they are baptized.

Again, that is not what Scripture says. You make a lie out of Scripture when you say nonsense like that. People become Christian when they die to sin and are born again which happens during baptism, not before (Rom 6:1-7). People become Christian when their sin is cut from them, and they are united with Jesus' resurrection during baptism (Col 2:11-14). People become Christian when they are saved through baptism in water (1 Pet 3:21).

Dwight - Now let's look at your second made-up "fact." Confessing "Jesus is Lord" is not the same as "You are the Christ, the Son of the Living God". The first confession acknowledges Jesus as being the highest authority, particularly over ourselves. The second confession identifies Jesus as the long awaited Messiah and the Son of God. It is not the same confession.

"that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord" (Rom 10:9a). First off, it is not confession that "Jesus IS Lord", but confession of Jesus AS Lord. Second, this is exactly what Peter confessed of Jesus: you are the Christ/Messiah/Savior, and you are the Son of God. Two different statements that sum up who and what Jesus is.

Also, you said that the confession was not yet made known to the world. So when was it made known to the world? The first time we ever hear of it is Romans 10:9-10, which was approximately 57 -58 A.D.
So what happens to the poor souls who thought they got saved between Jesus' death, at about 30 A.D. and 57 A,D,? That's 27 years that new Christians did not know that they had to confess Jesus as Lord in order to be saved. Were all of those people lost?

Your arguments are absurd. I didn't say that the confession was not made known to the world until AD 57-58 (the writing of Romans). It was not made known to the world yet when Jesus was talking to Nicodemus in John 3. Certainly the fact of the necessity of confession of Jesus was made known long before the writing of Romans. Philip taught it to the Eunuch in Acts 8. Peter taught it to the Jews on Pentecost in Acts 2.

You said that when the new Christians in Acts 2:38 were baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, that that was the same as them confessing "Jesus is Lord". Not true at all. Whoever baptized them was speaking the words "in the name of Jesus Christ", not the persons themselves. Also "in the name of Jesus Christ" is not the same as "Jesus is Lord", so you got it wrong again. There was no confession recorded of them saying "Jesus is Lord".

Again, not "Jesus IS Lord", but Jesus AS Lord. As Philip asked the Eunuch, so too every person I have ever witnessed who properly baptizes anyone has asked, "Do you believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God?" An affirmative answer, as the Eunuch gave, constitutes confession of Jesus as Lord. Sometimes an additional question is asked, "And do you choose to make Jesus Lord of your life?", but that question is not part of Scripture.

 

[Studyman]

You'll never make it. @Studyman

Yes, if I call Jesus Lord, Lord, but reject His Father and My Father's Commandments, in order to walk in this world's popular religious philosophies and traditions that you promote, it is true, I will never make it.

Yes, if I call Jesus Lord, Lord, and prophesy in His Name, and do all manner of wonderful works in His Name, but I reject God's Judgments and Commandments so as to walk in and be accepted by one of this world's many religious sects and businesses, I will never make it.

Yes, if I worship a manmade image of God in the likeness of some random, handsome men's hair shampoo model, more that my Creator, I will never make it.

Yes, if I am a hearer of the saying of the Christ "of the Bible", but not a "DOER" of His Sayings, I will never make it.

But if I Believe in the God of Abraham, who Inspired the Holy Scriptures, and His Son, who this same God Sent, and serve them, not with just my lips to be heard of men like this world's religions do, but with my heart and mind as well, then even though you and others Preach I will never make it, I still have hope.

If I place my Faith in the God of the Bible, the Faith that was in Christ Jesus Himself, then even though you Preach to the world that I will not make it, I still have hope.

It has been implied for 30 years, by so many different preachers from so many different religious businesses of this world, that unless I walk in their religious philosophies, and their religious traditions and judgments, which vary according to the name above the door of their manmade shrines of worship, " You'll never make it Studyman",

Nevertheless, I will take my chances with the One True God, and the Christ "of the Bible" who this God sent.

 

[Behold]

Yes, if I call Jesus Lord, Lord,

The Devil calls Jesus "Lord"

Did it help?

So, here is the thing..

Jesus told YOU....."you must be born again".....and that is not water baptism.

 

[Studyman]

So, what real Christians do, is.. "present your body as a living sacrifice to God, as your reasonable service"

As is the custom of "many" who come in Christ's Name, you left off some important parts of the instruction. Here, Let me show you what the Scripture actually teaches.

Rom. 12: 1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable "unto God", which is your reasonable service.

So then, if I present my body a living sacrifice unholy, or unacceptable to "GOD", I will never make it.

So then if you were speaking by the Spirit of Christ, your sentence would have been amended to read:

So, what real Christians do, is.. "present their body as a living sacrifice, Holy, Acceptable to God, which is their reasonable service"

And Paul continues as well, with more very important aspects of his teaching. Here, lets include them also, so as to understand "his" point.

2 And be not conformed to this world:

This would also include the Religions of this world as well, Yes? As the Jesus "of the Bible" teaches to "Take Heed" of the "many" deceivers who come in His Name?

"but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, "will of God".

And of course this is true. How can I know what is Holy and Good acceptable "to God", if I am not learned of the Father?

Well I don't know everything, but I do know that walking in the religious philosophies, Judgments and traditions of men, that cause them to reject and transgress God's Commandments, is not the "good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God".

As a preacher on this forum, it would seem that you should know these things.

 

[Behold]

Rom. 12: 1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable "unto God", which is your reasonable service.

If you do that, and you are not born again, you'll never make it to Heaven.

 

[Studyman]

The born again do this as discipleship.

What about men who call Jesus Lord, Lord, who claim to be "born again", but reject God's commandments and His Judgments so they can walk in the traditions and philosophies and judgments of this world's religious businesses and sects?

The water baptized and religious do this as their idea of trying to go to heaven.

Yes, this world's religions create their own judgments, their own image of God in the likeness of men, their own definition of Holy, Clean and Good as their idea of trying to go to heaven. I agree.

If you own a bible, then go back a few verses and find out that Paul is talking about the Resurrection.
You dont know this, as you are not really a student of the word.

I get that you cannot discuss what Paul said and I posted, so you must deflect somehow, change the subject. It is a common ploy for religious men in their attempt to justify a particular religious philosophy they may have adopted. But because I don't like this ploy, and wish to do unto others, ETC., I will post the Scriptures you referenced, and share my understanding.

5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;

So Paul was a Pharisee, and therefore he walked in the Pharisees Law. What Law was that? Here is what the Jesus "of the bible" teaches, if a man believes HIM.

Matt. 15: 7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, 8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. 9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

So the Pharisees "LAW" were manmade commandments. Paul addressed this in another place as well.

Rom. 10: 2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.

3 For they being "ignorant" of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the (Pharisees) law, blameless.

7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.

8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,

9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the (Pharisees) law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:(Belief)

10 "That I may know him", and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;

11 If by any means I might attain unto the "resurrection of the dead".

12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,

14 I press toward the mark for the prize (Perfection) of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

Why does Paul seek "Perfection"? Is it not "Because" the Jesus of the Bible, and His Father, commanded it.

1 Peter 1: 13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ; 14 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance: 15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;

16 "Because" it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

And again;

Matt. 5: 48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Now Jesus said there would be forces against me in this world as I am born again and am "Learning Obedience" from the things I suffer as I grow in the Knowledge of God, even as Paul was growing. And I profess that I have not yet attained perfection, but I press towards the Prize, as the Jesus "of the Bible" commands. So you are not the first Preacher to tell me "You are Never going to make it Studyman", by trusting the Word of God which became Flesh. I expect nothing differently.

I post on this forum to show others who may also have seen the hypocrisy of this world's religions and are Seeking God's Kingdom and "HIS" Righteousness to show them they are not alone in their journey, although at times it may appear that way.

 

[Studyman]

No, i "preach" that we are to follow Paul, as Paul stated.

"be a follower of ME, as i follow Christ".

You say you do, as do "many" who come in Christ's Name. But according to your posts, (works) you don't.

 

[Behold]

What about men who call Jesus Lord, Lord, who claim to be "born again", but reject God's commandments

Claiming to be born again, and only being water baptized and religious is a problem for millions.

Just remember this..

Being "born again" happens when you are a sinner.....so, there is no "Here is what i do, so that God will have me".....related to Salvation, as Jesus died for you, when you were "yet a sinner".

Notice this verse..


JESUS... "CAME into the WORLD .. to SAVE SINNERS"....

How do you know? @Studyman ?


Its because we are all sinners, who need to be saved.

 

[Studyman]

Claiming to be born again, and only being water baptized and religious is a problem for millions.

I care nothing about sprinkling of water or emersion or any of this world's religious traditions. I don't know why you keep bringing it up, since I have never even mentioned it, not once.

Just remember this..

Being "born again" happens when you are a sinner.....so, there is no "Here is what i do, so that God will have me".....related to Salvation, as Jesus died for you, when you were "yet a sinner".

Notice this verse..

JESUS... "CAME into the WORLD .. to SAVE SINNERS"....

How do you know? @Studyman ?

Its because we are all sinners, who need to be saved.

Why "Behold"? Why does Jesus remove our transgressions? So we can create our own religions and traditions which transgress God's Commandments, just as we did before? So we can create our own images of God in the likeness of men, our own Judgments, sabbaths, high days, definition of clean, Holy and good, and reject God's just as we did before?

Nevertheless, are opposing beliefs notwithstanding, it is good to have these discussions, someone may need to hear them.