The Hypostatic Union- the 2 Natures in Christ

[GeneZ]

God dying is no mystery to me.

God can not die. On the Cross Jesus denied Himself of His right to function as God in the powers of Deity - Philippians 2:6-8

 

[Matthias]

Lol, we on the forum, not you in particular.

Glad to hear it. I’ve only been a member of the forum for about 48 hours. Thought for a second there that maybe you were referring to a conversation we might have had on some other forum. I’ve been on many and I imagine that you have to. I cross paths often with people whom I’ve met on other forums, sometimes decades ago.

 

[civic]

Scripture never states God cannot die but it does state God cannot lie , cannot act unjust, unloving, unrighteous , unholy etc…

 

[GeneZ]

Scripture never states God cannot die but it does state God cannot lie , cannot act unjust, unloving, unrighteous , unholy etc…

Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one
who believes in me will live, even though they die; and whoever
lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?” John 11:25-26


If He says He give us eternal life, and that we will never die?

And? God is eternal life?

1+1 = One.. and the same!

 

[Matthias]

Trinitarianism is only a *concept* based upon what certain passages reveal about each member of the Trinity.
But,, Scripture does not come with an direct overt explanation given in Scripture.

How it is to be taught is not written in stone as only one way to teach it

Simply said... the Scriptures overtly teach that all Three are God.
But, Scripture does not overtly say how all Three are God.

To expound as to how each are God takes knowledge and grace being with you to be led to discover and dig out hidden treasures.
Treasures to cash in on when it comes time to explain the Trinity.

Philippians 1:9​

​

And this is my prayer: that your love may abound more and more in knowledge ​

and depth of insight."​

God has set forth in various passages about the existence of the Trinity to challenge believers.
To challenge us to discover who amongst us are truly growing in grace.

For, God requires that through diligent study of sound doctrine we learn to "dig out" for ourselves hidden treasures
to explain how God is the Trinity. Hopefully, to be shared with the body of Christ..

​

Colossians 2:2-3​

​

My goal is that they may be encouraged in heart and united in love, so that they may ​

have the full riches of complete understanding, in order that they may know the mystery ​

of God, namely, Christ, in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge."​

There is no one way to teach on the Trinity.

As long as what is said agrees with the full council of God's Word?
There can be various paths found to the same truth!



As long as it is sound doctrine? The Trinity can be approached in various ways...

grace and peace .............

Thanks for sharing your perspective. I wonder what others think about it.

I was raised Old School: If it isn’t historical orthodox trinitarianism then it is something other than trinitarianism.

Two years ago I was active on a forum which no longer exists. There were Modalists on the forum who insisted that they were trinitarians. Not one trinitarian on the forum disagreed with them. (I did, but the trinitarians wouldn’t support me, nor would they stand up for their doctrine.) In fact, many trinitarians said that it didn’t matter; that the Trinity can be whatever we define it to be.

HOT (historical orthodox trinitarianism) isn’t dead, but it’s dying.

 

[civic]

Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one
who believes in me will live, even though they die; and whoever
lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?” John 11:25-26


If He says He give us eternal life, and that we will never die?

And? God is eternal life?

1+1 = One.. and the same!

That is spiritual death.

 

[Matthias]

Scripture never states God cannot die but it does state God cannot lie , cannot act unjust, unloving, unrighteous , unholy etc…

Dying deities are from the realm of paganism.

Often in conversations like this I’m told “God can do anything!”

Their deity may be able to die but mine can’t.

What I especially appreciate about your comment is that you acknowledge that God cannot act against his character. I don’t know why that draws so much wrath but very often does.

 

[civic]

Thanks for sharing your perspective. I wonder what others think about it.

I was raised Old School: If it isn’t historical orthodox trinitarianism then it is something other than trinitarianism.

Two years ago I was active on a forum which no longer exists. There were Modalists on the forum who insisted that they were trinitarians. Not one trinitarian on the forum disagreed with them. (I did, but the trinitarians wouldn’t support me, nor would they stand up for their doctrine.) In fact, many trinitarians said that it didn’t matter; that the Trinity can be whatever we define it to be.

HOT (historical orthodox trinitarianism) isn’t dead, but it’s dying.

I laughed but that is sad

 

[civic]

Dying deities are from the realm of paganism.

Often in conversations like this I’m told “God can do anything!”

Their deity may be able to die but mine can’t.

What I especially appreciate about your comment is that you acknowledge that God cannot act against his character. I don’t know why that draws so much wrath but very often does.

Yes it sure does and the character of God is an essential whether one is a unitarian, binatarian or trinitarian. We should all be united in that aspect whether or not God is singular or plural in Person.

 

[Matthias]

I laughed but that is sad

On the one hand, it is humorous. But on the other hand, it is sad.

I wish that it wasn’t a true story. But it is. And I’ve encountered it elsewhere too.

It causes me to wonder, where is the shepherd (i.e. trinitarian pastor) of these people? Does he know? Does he care?

I think it’s tragic.

 

[civic]

On the one hand, it is humorous. But on the other hand, it is sad.

I wish that it wasn’t a true story. But it is. And I’ve encountered it elsewhere too.

It causes me to wonder, where is the shepherd (i.e. trinitarian pastor) of these people? Does he know? Does he care?

I think it’s tragic.

Unfortunately I agree.

 

[GeneZ]

On the one hand, it is humorous. But on the other hand, it is sad.

It causes me to wonder, where is the shepherd (i.e. trinitarian pastor) of these people? Does he know? Does he care?

I think it’s tragic.

Some learn that Jesus is God. And, stop there....

But, they fail to learn enough to recognize how Jesus has two natures.
Some can not differentiate between His humanity and His Deity which are in union.
They fail to see how the two natures interact in union that is uniquely the Son's alone.

His humanity could die. Die as any man could die, as long as He emptied Himself of His right to His powers of Deity.
Powers of Deity which in obedience He denied himself in obedience to the Father's plan.

Who, although He eternally existed in the form of God, He did not think equality with God ​

a gain to be seized (means to violently take) and held , but emptied Himself, taking the form ​

of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. Being found in appearance
as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death ​

on a cross." Philippians 2:6-8​

​

He had to empty himself of his powers of Deity as to be able to die in our place!
Why?

God can not die!

 

[Matthias]

Some learn that Jesus is God. And, stop there....

But, they fail to learn enough to recognize how Jesus has two natures.
Some can not differentiate between His humanity and His Deity which are in union.
They fail to see how the two natures interact in union that is uniquely the Son's alone.

His humanity could die. Die as any man could die, as long as He emptied Himself of His right to His powers of Deity.
Powers of Deity which in obedience He denied himself in obedience to the Father's plan.

Who, although He eternally existed in the form of God, He did not think equality with God ​

a gain to be seized (means to violently take) and held , but emptied Himself, taking the form ​

of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. Being found in appearance ​

as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death ​

on a cross." Philippians 2:6-8​

​

He had to empty himself of his powers of Deity as to be able to die in our place!
Why?

God can not die!

I always try to find something I can agree on with others. Something that I’ve found that I can agree on with you is the belief that God cannot die.

Agree when you can; disagree when you must. I respect that.

 

[Matthias]

I believe that Jesus of Nazareth is a human person. That alone is enough to preclude me from being a trinitarian. Properly trained and equipped trinitarians know this. Improperly trained and equipped trinitarians don’t.

Anyone who knows me well knows that one of the first questions I ask people when the subject turns to religion is whether or not they believe Jesus of Nazareth is a human person. How the person responds to the question tells me whether or not the person truly is or isn’t a trinitarian.

One foot in. One foot out. Which way will the person go when they find out that trinitarianism teaches us that Jesus of Nazareth isn’t a human person?

I do everything within my power to inform the uninformed concerning what trinitarianism teaches about Jesus of Nazareth. That properly is the role of a trinitarian. It’s ironic that it so often has fallen upon me, a Jewish monotheist.

 

[civic]

I believe that Jesus of Nazareth is a human person. That alone is enough to preclude me from being a trinitarian. Properly trained and equipped trinitarians know this. Improperly trained and equipped trinitarians don’t.

Anyone who knows me well knows that one of the first questions I ask people when the subject turns to religion is whether or not they believe Jesus of Nazareth is a human person. How the person responds to the question tells me whether or not the person truly is or isn’t a trinitarian.

One foot in. One foot out. Which way will the person go when they find out that trinitarianism teaches us that Jesus of Nazareth isn’t a human person?

I do everything within my power to inform the uninformed concerning what trinitarianism teaches about Jesus of Nazareth. That properly is the role of a trinitarian. It’s ironic that it so often has fallen upon me, a Jewish monotheist.

​

Anhypostasia is essential to a trinitarian understanding of the person of the God-man. It is impossible to be a trinitarian without a confession of it. Classical Christology has described the relationship of the two natures of Christ by using the rather arcane-sounding terms anhypostasis and enhypostasis. What does this mean? Well, firstly, the human nature of Jesus has no hypostasis, or "person", of its own, but subsists only as the human nature of the Son of God, the second person of the Trinity. His human nature is anhypostatic in that it has no personhood, or independent reality of its own (the word 'subsists' is used rather than 'exists’' to indicate this dependence): rather it is hypostatized in union with, in (so, enhypostasis), the person of the Logos. This is how Chalcedon is explained: we have in Jesus one person in two natures. The subject of this human nature is divine. Thus Jesus is a divine person and not a human person! Here's Louis Berkhof, A Summary of Christian Doctrine, The Banner of Truth Trust, 1938, p. 87:

 

[Matthias]

​

Anhypostasia is essential to a trinitarian understanding of the person of the God-man. It is impossible to be a trinitarian without a confession of it. Classical Christology has described the relationship of the two natures of Christ by using the rather arcane-sounding terms anhypostasis and enhypostasis. What does this mean? Well, firstly, the human nature of Jesus has no hypostasis, or "person", of its own, but subsists only as the human nature of the Son of God, the second person of the Trinity. His human nature is anhypostatic in that it has no personhood, or independent reality of its own (the word 'subsists' is used rather than 'exists’' to indicate this dependence): rather it is hypostatized in union with, in (so, enhypostasis), the person of the Logos. This is how Chalcedon is explained: we have in Jesus one person in two natures. The subject of this human nature is divine. Thus Jesus is a divine person and not a human person! Here's Louis Berkhof, A Summary of Christian Doctrine, The Banner of Truth Trust, 1938, p. 87:

Exactly right. Very well said. Even as a non-trinitarian, I used to carry around articles like this in a brief case to distribute to people whom I spoke with about the Trinity.

If “you“ want to be a trinitarian, read the fine print. This is what trinitarianism teaches us.

“You” have read the fine print, agree with it, and want to be a trinitarian? Then be a trinitarian.

“You” have read the fine print and disagree with it? Then don’t masquerade as something that “you“ are not.

People have killed and been killed over it. It’s a serious matter and should be treated as such.

 

[Matthias]

Show me a trinitarian who says “Jesus is a human person” and you will have shown me a trinitarian who is a trinitarian in name only.

 

[civic]

Hypostatic Union


1. Jesus is a person. (1 Tim 2:5)

2. Jesus, the Person, has two natures- Divine and human (John 1:1, 14, 1 Timothy 3:16): Divine and human. This is the Hypostatic Union.( Col 2:9, Heb 1:3,2:16)

3. The Communicatio Idiomatum (Communication of the Properties) states that the attributes of His Divine nature and human nature are both ascribed to the one Person of Jesus. So Jesus can exhibit attributes of Divinity (Omnipresence, Omniscience, Omnipotence, . John 2:23, 3:13, 8:58, He was prayed to in Acts 7:59, John 14:13, He was is worshiped Matt 2:2:11, Rev 5:13-14) and at the same time exhibit attributes of His humanity( He was tempted, ate, prayed,wept, grew in wisdom and stature,was anointed,was baptized, the Father was greater, didn’t know the day or the hour of His Return, He cried My God my God why has Thou forsaken Me, He died etc.). The communicatio idiomatum does not mean that any part of the Divine nature was communicated to the human nature.

4. The Man(anthropos) Jesus is what we perceive (if we were there 2000 years ago in Israel) and through the Man we encounter the Divine nature (Jesus knowing all things, is on earth while in heaven, answers prayer, forgiving sins, etc.).

5. The Person of Jesus will always be both Divine and human. (John 1:1,14,20:28, 1 John 5:20, 1 Timothy 2:5) Those who deny this fact are the spirit of antichrist. (1 John 4:1-4,2 John 7)

6. The Divine Nature is within the Trinity.(Father, Son and Holy Spirit)

7. Since the Person of Jesus claims the attributes of Divinity(John 3:13,8:58,Matthew 9:2,12:8), then the Person of Jesus is a member of the Trinity.( John 14-16, Math 28:19)

Anything said of either of Christ's two natures applies to the one Person of Christ, so that is how it is said that Christ died on the cross. The term "hypostatic union" refers to the two natures united in the one Person, so anything said of those two natures in the one Person applies to the whole Person. So we see that the Person of Christ is both God and man. The phrase hypostatic union was adopted by the general council at Chalcedon 451 AD. That council declared that the union of two natures is real (against Arius), not a mere indwelling of God in a man (against Nestorius), with a rational soul (against Apollinaris), and that in Christ’s Divine nature remains unchanged (against Eutyches).

We need to look to the Monothelite Controversy which had to deal with whether there was one or two wills/minds in the person of Christ. The outcome was that there were two; one human and one divine with the human subjected to the divine. The eternal Son of God did not assume a part of a human nature without a mind, without a will, without human activity, but He assumed all the things that were planted in our nature by God.

Now then, to act (or in this case, speak) is the work of a person, but the form or nature is the cause of this action; for each person acts in accord with the form or nature which it has. A difference in causes (natures) produces a difference in effects (actions). Therefore, where there are different natures, there are also different activities. So in the one Person of Christ there are two natural actions, the divine and the human, each of which has its own essential attributes, functions, and actions. Jesus was thirty years old according to His human nature (Luke 3:23); according to His divine nature He could say: "Before Abraham was born, I am" (John 8:58). The question is did both natures know this and communicate it to the Person. The answer is yes because the divine nature with its corresponding divine will willed the human nature to respond in such a fashion in keeping with Christ's office and ministry. In the text regarding Mark 13:32, we have a slightly different situation here. Christ is acting (speaking) from His human nature, but, this time, the divine will does not allow the human will access to this knowledge. For this information is not to be published on earth. Therefore, as man, Christ cannot answer the question. In the works pertaining to the office of Christ as Prophet, Priest, and King both natures act in conjunction with each other, each nature doing what is peculiar to the same. The book of Hebrews goes into great detail with these offices.

hope this helps !!!

@TheLayman is very astute when it comes to the Trinity and the Hypostatic Union. Maybe he will chime in on the topic.

 

[civic]

Show me a trinitarian who says “Jesus is a human person” and you will have shown me a trinitarian who is a trinitarian in name only.

Or a trinitarian who doesn't fully understand the Trinity or the H.U.

I can make similar statements about unitarians not understanding their own doctrines as well.

 

[Dizerner]

I don't think saying “Jesus is a human person” is anti-Trinitarian at all.