The Hypostatic Union- the 2 Natures in Christ

[GeneZ]

In my experience about 1 in 10 trinitarians are aware that this is what trinitarianism teaches.

Trinitarianism is only a *concept* based upon what certain passages reveal about each member of the Trinity.
But,, Scripture does not come with an direct overt explanation given in Scripture.

How it is to be taught is not written in stone as only one way to teach it

Simply said... the Scriptures overtly teach that all Three are God.
But, Scripture does not overtly say how all Three are God.

To expound as to how each are God takes knowledge and grace being with you to be led to discover and dig out hidden treasures.
Treasures to cash in on when it comes time to explain the Trinity.

Philippians 1:9​

​

And this is my prayer: that your love may abound more and more in knowledge
and depth of insight."​

God has set forth in various passages about the existence of the Trinity to challenge believers.
To challenge us to discover who amongst us are truly growing in grace.

For, God requires that through diligent study of sound doctrine we learn to "dig out" for ourselves hidden treasures
to explain how God is the Trinity. Hopefully, to be shared with the body of Christ..

​

Colossians 2:2-3​

​

My goal is that they may be encouraged in heart and united in love, so that they may
have the full riches of complete understanding, in order that they may know the mystery
of God, namely, Christ, in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge."​

There is no one way to teach on the Trinity.

As long as what is said agrees with the full council of God's Word?
There can be various paths found to the same truth!

In my experience about 1 in 10 trinitarians are aware that this is what trinitarianism teaches.

As long as it is sound doctrine? The Trinity can be approached in various ways...

grace and peace .............

 

[GeneZ]

I do in the sense of what death means by this definition. The seperation of the body from the soul/spirit. His body was dead and His soul/spirit was no longer in His body. So by that definition yes.

Jesus died the death that saved us before he died physically.....

He died spiritually to save us. Died while he was cut off from the Father and Spirit during the time he had to bear our sins being poured upon Him.

That is why he cried out the words.....

“Eli! Eli! L’mah sh’vaktani? (My God! My God! Why have you deserted/forsaken me?)” Mat 27:46


Why forsaken? because God can not fellowship with sin,,,,

When he bore our sins? He (his humanity) was cut off from God!
His humanity bore our sins alone! Not God.

Just like when we sin? It tells us that the Spirit will not leave us nor forsake us.
In that manner, His Deity did not forsake him because He never sinned personally.
But, like when we sin we can grieve or quench the Spirit? Thus cutting us off from the Spirit's filling?
In that manner his own Deity was quenched and grieved from within him because of our sins which were being poured upon Him..
That is why his Deity never left Him, but was being grieved from within. Never left because He personally never sinned!

Our sins pierced Him. He never sinned.

After the last sin was bore by Him? With no more sins to bear?
He was instantly restored to fellowship with the Trinity.

That is when he said... "Father."
But... while bearing our sins?
He could only cry out the generic term "God."
"My God! My God! Why have you deserted/forsaken me?"

I remember when my pastor first showed me this.
I found myself both blessed and totally dumbfounded.. in the Lord!


grace and peace ..............

 

[civic]

Jesus died the death that saved us before he physically died.....

He died spiritually while he was cut off from the Father and Spirit during the time he had our sins poured upon Him.

Jesus did not die spiritually. That is impossible for one and secondly its not found in scripture. He died physically. Upon His physical death He said " Father into thy hands I commit my spirit. "

The following scriptures affirm that Jesus' relationship with the Father on the cross was still there and not broken.

Psalm 22:24 For he has not despised or scorned the suffering of the afflicted one; he has not hidden his face from him but has listened to his cry for help.

Luke 23:46 Jesus called out with a loud voice, "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit." When he had said this, he breathed his last.

John 16:32 "A time is coming and in fact has come when you will be scattered, each to your own home. You will leave me all alone. Yet I am not alone, for my Father is with me."

Hebrews 5:7 During the days of Jesus’ life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with fervent cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission.

Jesus' promise to the thief on the cross that today you will be with Me in Paradise reaffirms Jesus went to be with the Father and not suffer in hell as some teach.

Jesus bearing God's “cup of wrath” and being despised and forsaken by the Father and Him turning His back on the Son is not found in Scripture.


hope this helps !!!

 

[GeneZ]

Jesus did not die spiritually. That is impossible for one and secondly its not found in scripture. He died physically. Upon His physical death He said " Father into thy hands I commit my spirit. "

Not personally spiritually die...

For he was separated in our place! He never sinned. So, he never personally died spiritually .

He was "baptized" into what spiritual death produces in relation to God.
He was baptized into the effects of spiritual death as our substitute!

​

“You do not know what you are asking,” Jesus replied. ​

“Can you drink the cup I will drink, ​

or be baptized with the baptism I will undergo?” Mark 10:38​

 

[Matthias]

I believe Jesus is God, therefore by logical necessity I have to believe God died.

Death is the price of sin, only God could pay it on behalf of all sinful humanity.

If you check that thread out you will see a lot of my argumentation.

Regards.

I don’t have a lot in common with R.C. Sproul but I do agree with him that God didn’t die on the cross.

”If God dies, everything dies with him. Obviously then, God could not have perished on the cross. … We should shrink in horror from the idea that God died on the cross.”

Did God Die on the Cross?

The famous hymn of the church “And Can it Be?” contains a line that asks a very poignant question: “How can it be that thou, my God, shouldst die for me?” Is it

www.ligonier.org

He makes another observation that it is pertinent to a trinitarian than it is to me, a non-trinitarian.

”Some say, ‘It was the second person of the Trinity Who died.‘ That would be a mutation within the very being of God, because when we look at the Trinity we say that the three are one in essence, and that though there are personal distinctions among the persons of the Godhead, those distinctions are not essential in the sense that they are differences in being. Death is something that would involve a change in one’s being.”

So, according to Sproul, neither God nor the second person of the Trinity died.

I bet that’s not something people hear often, if ever, announced from the pulpit.

 

[Dizerner]

I don’t have a lot in common with R.C. Sproul but I do agree with him that God didn’t die on the cross.

”If God dies, everything dies with him. Obviously then, God could not have perished on the cross. … We should shrink in horror from the idea that God died on the cross.”

False definition of death.

We've covered this many times, death is not the cessation of existence.

That is a secular materialist unbelieving view of death.

If you look around many of my posts contain proper Biblical definitions of death.

 

[civic]

I don’t have a lot in common with R.C. Sproul but I do agree with him that God didn’t die on the cross.

”If God dies, everything dies with him. Obviously then, God could not have perished on the cross. … We should shrink in horror from the idea that God died on the cross.”

Did God Die on the Cross?

The famous hymn of the church “And Can it Be?” contains a line that asks a very poignant question: “How can it be that thou, my God, shouldst die for me?” Is it

www.ligonier.org

He makes another observation that it is pertinent to a trinitarian than it is to me, a non-trinitarian.

”Some say, ‘It was the second person of the Trinity Who died.‘ That would be a mutation within the very being of God, because when we look at the Trinity we say that the three are one in essence, and that though there are personal distinctions among the persons of the Godhead, those distinctions are not essential in the sense that they are differences in being. Death is something that would involve a change in one’s being.”

So, according to Sproul, neither God nor the second person of the Trinity died.

I bet that’s not something people hear often, if ever, announced from the pulpit.

I use to believe that years ago. He is wrong since only persons die not natures. Jesus person is Divine. So no one died in the cross with his view.

 

[Matthias]

I believe Jesus is God, therefore by logical necessity I have to believe God died.

One more thought on the subject. Maybe things have changed since I was a trinitarian but, when I was a trinitarian, I heard many sermons asserting and affirming that “it isn’t logical; it’s a mystery.”

I don’t know if you attend church or not, or which church you attend if you do. I was raised Southern Baptist. One of the hymns we sang with great frequency was “And Can it Be That I Should Gain,” written by Charles Wesley. Two lines of the hymn really stood out to me:

1. “That Thou, my God, shouldst die for me?” and
2. ‘’Tis mystery all! The Immortal dies!”

God dying was puzzling enough but the immortal dies was a sheer and outright contradiction in my mind. Mystery” was the cure, for a while.

 

[Dizerner]

So, according to Sproul, neither God nor the second person of the Trinity died.

I bet that’s not something people hear often, if ever, announced from the pulpit.

Sproul also said Christ became an obscene blasphemy on the Cross.

Anyway, I don't really care what Sproul said or did not say.

He is a Calvinist and said some good things and some bad things, like most.


The important point is, Christ did not somehow evade the just punishment of sin.

And only soulish emotionalism combats this very obvious Biblical truth.

 

[Matthias]

False definition of death.

We've covered this many times, death is not the cessation of existence.

I don’t recall ever having spoken with you on the subject of death. My apologies, if we have.

I believed death is the cessation of life, and the only means back to live is via resurrection from the grave.

That is a secular materialist unbelieving view of death.

If you look around many of my posts contain proper Biblical definitions of death.

Mine is a non-secular believing view of death.

 

[Dizerner]

1. “That Thou, my God, shouldst die for me?” and
2. ‘’Tis mystery all! The Immortal dies!”

God dying was puzzling enough but the immortal dies was a sheer and outright contradiction in my mind. Mystery” was the cure, for a while.

It doesn't matter how you cut it, if you believe in the supernatural, you will have to believe in a mystery beyond your understanding at some point.

To just assume God would never allow himself to be beyond the full understanding of what he makes, is silly and unbiblical.

You've been hoodwinked by bad and inconsistent logic, I'm afraid.

 

[Matthias]

I use to believe that years ago. He is wrong since only persons die not natures. Jesus person is Divine. So no one died in the cross with his view.

I often ask people who or what died on the cross. The answer I most often am given is that Jesus died on the cross. That’s quite right.

 

[Dizerner]

I don’t recall ever having spoken with you on the subject of death. My apologies, if we have.

Lol, we on the forum, not you in particular.

 

[Matthias]

Sproul also said Christ became an obscene blasphemy on the Cross.

Like I said, I don’t have much in common with Sproul.

Anyway, I don't really care what Sproul said or did not say.

Do you care what I say and do?

He is a Calvinist and said some good things and some bad things, like most.


The important point is, Christ did not somehow evade the just punishment of sin.

And only soulish emotionalism combats this very obvious Biblical truth.

 

[Dizerner]

Mine is a non-secular believing view of death.

Well, it's completely unbiblical.

I don't know if you have SDA leanings, but Jesus clearly said all live to God.

 

[Dizerner]

Do you care what I say and do?

In so far as the Holy Spirit may be working to help you grow in Christ, for this I care very much.

As for, like, having to accept sometimes people resist the truth—well you have to accept that sometimes.

 

[Matthias]

It doesn't matter how you cut it, if you believe in the supernatural, you will have to believe in a mystery beyond your understanding at some point.

God dying is no mystery to me.

To just assume God would never allow himself to be beyond the full understanding of what he makes, is silly and unbiblical.

I agree.

You've been hoodwinked by bad and inconsistent logic, I'm afraid.

I’ll refrain from making comments like that about you and others. At best such comments are dialogue killers.

 

[Matthias]

Well, it's completely unbiblical.

If I agreed with that then I wouldn’t believe it.

I don't know if you have SDA leanings…

I visited an SDA church once. I believe in conditional immortality. Beyond that, I don’t have much in common with them.

… but Jesus clearly said all live to God.

What does living to God mean to you?

 

[Matthias]

In so far as the Holy Spirit may be working to help you grow in Christ, for this I care very much.

I presume then that you would say the same about Sproul if he were alive today. But then you believe that he is alive today, don’t you?

As for, like, having to accept sometimes people resist the truth—well you have to accept that sometimes.

Do you think I believe you are resisting the truth?

 

[GeneZ]

Jesus did not die spiritually. That is impossible for one and secondly its not found in scripture. He died physically. Upon His physical death He said " Father into thy hands I commit my spirit. "

The following scriptures affirm that Jesus' relationship with the Father on the cross was still there and not broken.

Psalm 22:24 For he has not despised or scorned the suffering of the afflicted one; he has not hidden his face from him but has listened to his cry for help.

Luke 23:46 Jesus called out with a loud voice, "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit." When he had said this, he breathed his last.

John 16:32 "A time is coming and in fact has come when you will be scattered, each to your own home. You will leave me all alone. Yet I am not alone, for my Father is with me."

Hebrews 5:7 During the days of Jesus’ life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with fervent cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission.

Jesus' promise to the thief on the cross that today you will be with Me in Paradise reaffirms Jesus went to be with the Father and not suffer in hell as some teach.

Jesus bearing God's “cup of wrath” and being despised and forsaken by the Father and Him turning His back on the Son is not found in Scripture.


hope this helps !!!

Paul taught two different things about tongues...

Paul taught the positive aspect of tongues for while it was to still be active as a gift.
But, Paul also taught about how tongues were to become obsolete after it served its purpose for being a sign to Jews rejecting the Messiah.

What you did was something similar without realizing it.

You showed passages that showed Jesus not to be alone...
But, failed to see the passages that reveal he was being forsaken by the Father and Holy Spirit ( My God!~ My God! why have you forsaken me?)

Just because one passage declares a truth... Does not mean that the truth will still be applicable when the plan of God takes another turn requiring change in God's intent.