The Gospel of Twelve Thrones

[TibiasDad]

I see you are using a corrupt translation translated from the Westcott & Hort Greek.

I’ve asked you numerous times to quote and reveal what text you are using! There is very little difference between the various MSs, and nothing that changes anything in primary doctrine. The RT is not the mothership of texts, the older texts are more likely to be accurate, and the volume of MSs of the NT is more reliable than any other ancient text of any type.

The word is not "Gentile" it's Greek. "To the Jew and to the Greek" and the word "Greek" in Greek is the word "Hellens" which identifies Greek-speaking, Greek-living Jews. This is supported by Saul's referencing "the Law" and "circumcision" which all Jews that are not remaining among the Diaspora are as Jewish men. Circumcised.

First of all, we were discussing Rom 9, and you start talking about Rom 1:16; that’s bad form! But to your point, “first to the Jew and then to the Greek” is similar to his words in Romans 9 where he uses the term ἔθνος, which is by definition in contrast to ethnic Jewish people, thus, they are other than Jews.

“Jews and Greeks” is another way of saying Jews and ethnos, Jews and all others who are not Jews. It doesn’t make your case, but rather destroys it completely.

I have been unable to find any scholarly sources that agree with you. I’m beginning to think that you’re arguing for the sake of argument because you have yet to support your argument with something outside of your own opinion.

Doug

 

[jeremiah1five]

Okay, I guess I’ll have to do it the long way:

1I speak the truth in Christ—I am not lying, my conscience confirms it through the Holy Spirit— 2I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. 3For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my people, those of my own race, 4the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption to sonship; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises. 5Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of the Messiah, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen.

Paul is always concerned and longing for his people, the Jewish people, his “race” genealogically speaking, who have yet to believe that Jesus is the Messiah long foretold.

You are so very wrong.
The Jewish people don't have to "believe that Jesus is the Messiah long foretold." The Lord will make them believe when the Holy Spirit enters their lives just as the Holy Spirit saved three thousand Jews on the Jewish Feast of Harvest aka "Pentecost." After that thousands more Jews every day were being born-again by the Spirit for the Spirit was Promised to the Jewish people. The Spirit is given to the Jews as per the covenants the children of Israel had with the God of Abraham. It's a Promise God made to the children of Israel:

39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. Acts 2:39.

God does the calling. There is no "accept Jesus into your heart." Israel is in covenant TO BE SAVED. That was the reason why the Son was sent into the world. To save Israel. And every day after the Feast of Harvest aka "Pentecost" the Lord says Jews were being saved and born-again daily:

47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved. Acts 2:46–47.

This means thousands of Jews were being born-again daily. At one time five thousand Jews were born-again:

IN ONE DAY!

4 Howbeit many of them which heard the word believed; and the number of the men was about five thousand.
Acts 4:3–4.

(We would be no different wanting especially for our immediate family to know Christ, not discounting others outside of our genetic pool to know him as well.)

His people are, after all, the ones to whom God gave the commandments and teachings and covenants, and the family line of the Messiah. Of course he is wanting them to be saved.

6It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel.

Paul’s answering an unspoken rhetorical question, namely, if all Jews are not saved, then has God failed to keep his promise? Paul says ‘Of course not; because not all who are “Israel” are of Jewish descent’…


7Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham’s children. On the contrary, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.” 8In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring. 9For this was how the promise was stated: “At the appointed time I will return, and Sarah will have a son.”

God’s family is not a genetic construct but one of a belief in a promise, despite the the odds against it, for God said,“At the appointed time I will return, and Sarah will have a son.” And “Abraham believed God”, and that belief was counted as righteousness.

It doesn’t matter what your genetic line is, what matters is do you believe God’s promise. Anyone is capable of believing in God’s promises.

To be continued…


Doug

If it didn't matter, then God would not have made the covenant biological as He did with Abraham:

7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee. Genesis 17:7.

You have a great deal to learn about the salvation that is OF THE JEWS.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Rom 9:10Not only that, but Rebekah’s children were conceived at the same time by our father Isaac. 11Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: 12not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” 13Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

God’s sovereign choice is that God can do whatever he wants to do however he wants to do it. He chose to use a hundred year old man and a ninety year old woman to start his “people”; which doesn’t make any sense to mere mortals! Likewise, he balks at human protocols with Jacob and Esau, because the firstborn is the special child who is given the bulk of the estate and thus the prominent figure of the next generation, but God chose to exalt the second born son as his vehicle of choice to accomplish his purposes.

It is not by human choice but by God’s design that we become children of promise.

Continues later…

Doug

The children of Promise are the children of Israel for God Promised His Spirit to them and ONLY them.

Peter is speaking to Jews when he says:

39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. Acts 2:39.

The people that are "afar off" are Jews living in Gentile lands heavily influenced by Greek culture. They may be mixed-race but as long as Abraham's DNA is in their bloodline then God's Promises are sure.

 

[jeremiah1five]

I’ve asked you numerous times to quote and reveal what text you are using! There is very little difference between the various MSs, and nothing that changes anything in primary doctrine. The RT is not the mothership of texts, the older texts are more likely to be accurate, and the volume of MSs of the NT is more reliable than any other ancient text of any type.

I use the KJV.
And no, "older texts are NOT more accurate."
Of all the 5,000 plus texts and fragments after comparison were made the KJV aka "Received Text" was found to be the most accurate. Westcott & Hort and his committee used the Vaticanus and Sinaiticus to make their Greek Translation. Both Westcott & Hort were closet Catholics and practiced Mariology (worship of Mary) as told by their sons. They used "older" texts and came out with the Revised Greek Version (1881). John Burgon was a contemporary of W&H and challenged their work as fraudulent.

First of all, we were discussing Rom 9, and you start talking about Rom 1:16; that’s bad form! But to your point, “first to the Jew and then to the Greek” is similar to his words in Romans 9 where he uses the term ἔθνος, which is by definition in contrast to ethnic Jewish people, thus, they are other than Jews.

"Greek" is the word ("Hellens") "Hellenized" Jews were Hellenized because they were influenced by Greek culture in Gentile lands.

“Jews and Greeks” is another way of saying Jews and ethnos, Jews and all others who are not Jews. It doesn’t make your case, but rather destroys it completely.

I have been unable to find any scholarly sources that agree with you. I’m beginning to think that you’re arguing for the sake of argument because you have yet to support your argument with something outside of your own opinion.

Doug

My positions are the result of studying under the anointing using the KJV and Strong's.
Your problem is you've fallen for the false Constantinian Gentile theology that steals Israel's inheritance and replaces the Jews as God's people. Jesus didn't add Gentiles to His sacrifice on the cross. Gentiles were not even under God's Law and that is why Jesus was sent. To save the seed of Abraham and to one day give the Hebrew people their own land minus Gentiles.

God's attitude of the Gentile nations is clear:

17 All nations before him are as nothing;
And they are counted to him less than nothing, and vanity.
Isaiah 40:17.

God made no covenant to save Gentiles. The nations of the Gentiles got nothing coming to them of God. They are "nothing" and "vanity." Now, why is that? Because they are His enemy and Israel's enemy. The world is against God.

15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. 1 John 2:15–16.

If you read John 17, the Lord prays for Himself, for His twelve disciples, and those who would be saved because of their testimony. Notice the distinct difference between "them" and the "world." There are two groups being addressed.

Martin Luther calls John 17 the "Holy of Holies Prayer" and for good reason. As High Priest Christ sanctifies Himself, the twelve, and those "afar off" who are Jews that will be delivered by Christ.

6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.
8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.
9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. John 17:6–9.

Under the Law the high priest does two things: he prays for the Hebrew people of God and offers sacrifices for the Hebrew people of God. Jesus as High Priest prays for the people of God and then offers Himself as sacrifice for the Hebrew people of God. When Jesus says from the cross: "Father, forgive THEM for they know not what they do" He was praying for the Hebrew people of God - NOT the Romans, and NOT those that crucified Him. He is speaking about the children of Israel under the Law and under God. Saul says:

4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. Galatians 4:4–5.

4 Who are Israelites;
to whom pertaineth the adoption,
and the glory,
and the covenants,
and the giving of the law,
and the service of God,
and the promises;
5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen. Romans 9:4–5.

The salvation of the Jews in a nutshell.
Not Gentiles, JEWS!