The Eternal Son

@Red Baker see the Reformered Theologians/Scholars affirm the Eternal Son below

www.thegospelcoalition.org

Theological Primer: Eternal Sonship

From time to time I make new entries into this continuing series called “Theological Primer.” The idea is to present big theological concepts in under 500 words (or pretty close–what’s a couple hundred words among friends?). Today we look at the eternality of the Son of God. ******* There never...
www.thegospelcoalition.org www.thegospelcoalition.org

www.reformation21.org

Another Thirteen Evangelical Theologians Who Affirm the Eternal Submission of the Son to the Father

www.reformation21.org www.reformation21.org
 
DavidTree said:
The scriptures declaring Elohim as Father/Son/Holy Spirit are for mankind and for the angels to SEE/Learn

This is the only way in which Elohim can communicate at our level hear on earth, as part of His Creation.

A.) The Scripture only begins with the Creation
B.) The scripture does not begin with Eternity
C.) The Scripture declares a Eternal Elohim who is the Creator at the point of Elohim creating.
D.) Pre-Creation = No scriptures exist or inform us of Who Elohim actually is apart from Spirit/Eternal/Creator/Plural of 3


Please expedite this for me: please list the post #s so that i can quickly review = ty Brother
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I wholeheartedly disagree. Before creation the Son declares in John 17:5 that He shared the same glory together with the Father. Also Genesis 1 and John 1 declare the same that the Son was with the Father before there was a creation. In the beginning God. Before time/creation came into being there was God. And this God is identified as Father, Son, Holy Spirit.

hope this helps !!!
 
civic said:
I wholeheartedly disagree. Before creation the Son declares in John 17:5 that He shared the same glory together with the Father. Also Genesis 1 and John 1 declare the same that the Son was with the Father before there was a creation. In the beginning God. Before time/creation came into being there was God. And this God is identified as Father, Son, Holy Spirit.

hope this helps !!!
Click to expand...
JESUS, now Elohim Incarnate, declares that HE shared in the Glory before the world existed to:
present tense language that ties together to His Father/present tense to an Eternal sharing of Glory.
Because of the Incarnation, JESUS cannot reference any other relationship then that which HE submitted too = kapish?
Not my will be done but thine!!!

Keep this in the forefront and foundation = Immediately upon Elohim Word coming to earth via Elohim Holy Spirit, is when a Miraculous change takes Place for the FIRST Time = "Firstborn over all of creation"

Hebrews 10:5 - "a Body You have prepared for ME"

In everyplace in OT Scripture the Prophetic reference to MESSIAH is in reference to a Divine Being coming to earth as a man,
AND that their will be a relationship as Father to Son

Question for you my Brother and @praise_yeshua
When did the Counsel of Elohim designate amongst Themselves the Plan of Creation whereby mankind is the Purpose

Now i say "Purpose" for a specific Reason which the Scriptures do tell us Why but not When!!!
 
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DavidTree said:
JESUS, now Elohim Incarnate, declares that HE shared in the Glory before the world existed to:
present tense language that ties together to His Father/present tense to an Eternal sharing of Glory.

Keep this in the forefront and foundation = Immediately upon Elohim Word coming to earth via Elohim Holy Spirit, is when a Miraculous change takes Place for the FIRST Time = "Firstborn over all of creation"

Hebrews 10:5 - "a Body You have prepared for ME"

In everyplace in OT Scripture the Prophetic reference to MESSIAH is in reference to a Divine Being coming to earth as a man.

Question for you my Brother and @praise_yeshua
When did the Counsel of Elohim designate amongst Themselves the Plan of Creation whereby mankind is the Purpose

Now i say "Purpose" for a specific Reason which the Scriptures do tell us Why.
Click to expand...
I'm not disputing His becoing a son via the Incarnation as I affirm those passages. But you are making a false dichotomy fallacy since its not an either or regarding the Son. He is both the Eternal Son with no beginning and the begotten Son in time.

And please don't take this wrong but I have been debating and defending the Trinity for well over 40 years. I'm very capable of defending it with any pastor, teacher, theologian, scholar etc...... I have had pastors and scholars that I know personally affirm this with me. Its the topic/doctrine I'm most familiar with in Scripture and Church history, followed closely by the Hypostatic Union and then the gospel at its core the bodily Resurrection,Ascension, 2nd Coming of Christ. Those are my passionate doctrines I enjoy discussing the most and the ones I have studied the most in depth.

hope this helps !!!
 
civic said:
I'm not disputing His becoing a son via the Incarnation as I affirm those passages. But you are making a false dichotomy fallacy since its not an either or regarding the Son. He is both the Eternal Son with no beginning and the begotten Son in time.

And please don't take this wrong but I have been debating and defending the Trinity for well over 40 years. I'm very capable of defending it with any pastor, teacher, theologian, scholar etc...... I have had pastors and scholars that I know personally affirm this with me. Its the topic/doctrine I'm most familiar with in Scripture and Church history, followed closely by the Hypostatic Union and then the gospel at its core the bodily Resurrection,Ascension, 2nd Coming of Christ. Those are my passionate doctrines I enjoy discussing the most and the ones I have studied the most in depth.

hope this helps !!!
Click to expand...
OK - went thru the scriptures in the OP = TY
These scriptures ONLY pertain to the Incarnation = exactly as i describe in Post 204

false dichotomy fallacy since its not an either or regarding the Son. He is both the Eternal Son with no beginning and the begotten Son in time.
Click to expand...
FACT = the WORD is not the Son in Eternity = no scripture provides that Insight to Eternity past

He is both the Eternal Son with no beginning and the begotten Son in time.
Click to expand...
Statement above is the fallacy

for there does not exist "Eternal Son" but only the Time of the Word becoming flesh = only Son / firstborn over creation

Carefully examine Post 204 and see if you can answer the question that it concludes with
 
DavidTree said:
JESUS, now Elohim Incarnate, declares that HE shared in the Glory before the world existed to:
present tense language that ties together to His Father/present tense to an Eternal sharing of Glory.
Because of the Incarnation, JESUS cannot reference any other relationship then that which HE submitted too = kapish?
Not my will be done but thine!!!

Keep this in the forefront and foundation = Immediately upon Elohim Word coming to earth via Elohim Holy Spirit, is when a Miraculous change takes Place for the FIRST Time = "Firstborn over all of creation"

Hebrews 10:5 - "a Body You have prepared for ME"

In everyplace in OT Scripture the Prophetic reference to MESSIAH is in reference to a Divine Being coming to earth as a man,
AND that their will be a relationship as Father to Son

Question for you my Brother and @praise_yeshua
When did the Counsel of Elohim designate amongst Themselves the Plan of Creation whereby mankind is the Purpose

Now i say "Purpose" for a specific Reason which the Scriptures do tell us Why but now When!!!
Click to expand...
there is no time in eternity prior to creation,

fallacious question

next fallacy
 
just an FYI- there is no "gothca" question that will stump me with the Trinity/ HU. I've heard them all from every religious sect over the years debating them.

but try as you may it will be an exercise in futility as I have the scriptures on my side regarding the Trinity as Father, Son and Holy Spirit. I also have church history secondly, the ECF's and the Creeds.
 
civic said:
there is no time in eternity prior to creation,

fallacious question

next fallacy
Click to expand...
For us there is Time in Eternity otherwise there would be no Eternity for Eternity Itself establishes Time by which finite beings are encapsulated in.

the Scriptures even speak and testify to this by referencing "Time"

Even from the beginning I have declared it to you; Before it came to pass I proclaimed it to you, Lest you should say, ‘My idol has done them, And my carved image and my molded image Have commanded them.’

“Remember this, and show yourselves men;
Recall to mind, O you transgressors.
Remember the former things of old,
For I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is none like Me,
Declaring the end from the beginning,
And from ancient times things that are not yet done,
Saying, ‘My counsel shall stand,
 
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civic said:
just an FYI- there is no "gothca" question that will stump me with the Trinity/ HU. I've heard them all from every religious sect over the years debating them.

but try as you may it will be an exercise in futility as I have the scriptures on my side regarding the Trinity as Father, Son and Holy Spirit. I also have church history secondly, the ECF's and the Creeds.
Click to expand...
ditto

Trinity is not in question
 
DavidTree said:
OK - went thru the scriptures in the OP = TY
These scriptures ONLY pertain to the Incarnation = exactly as i describe in Post 204
Click to expand...
Daniel 3:25/91/92 is about the Incarnation?

I believe it represents a point in time wherein the "Son" is referenced in bodily form before the Incarnation.

No matter what our theology teaches, these facts are true to the manuscript evidence.
 
DavidTree said:
For us there is Time in Eternity otherwise there would be no Eternity for Eternity Itself establishes Time by which finite beings are encapsulated in.

the Scriptures even speak and testify to this by referencing "Time"

Even from the beginning I have declared it to you; Before it came to pass I proclaimed it to you, Lest you should say, ‘My idol has done them, And my carved image and my molded image Have commanded them.’

“Remember this, and show yourselves men;
Recall to mind, O you transgressors.
Remember the former things of old,
For I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is none like Me,
Declaring the end from the beginning,
And from ancient times things that are not yet done,
Saying, ‘My counsel shall stand,
Click to expand...

Character. These are statements relative to the Immutability of God's Character. I AM that I AM.

In context of Eternity, they are immutable irrespective of time. They change not.
 
DavidTree said:
JESUS, now Elohim Incarnate, declares that HE shared in the Glory before the world existed to:
present tense language that ties together to His Father/present tense to an Eternal sharing of Glory.
Because of the Incarnation, JESUS cannot reference any other relationship then that which HE submitted too = kapish?
Not my will be done but thine!!!

Keep this in the forefront and foundation = Immediately upon Elohim Word coming to earth via Elohim Holy Spirit, is when a Miraculous change takes Place for the FIRST Time = "Firstborn over all of creation"

Hebrews 10:5 - "a Body You have prepared for ME"

In everyplace in OT Scripture the Prophetic reference to MESSIAH is in reference to a Divine Being coming to earth as a man,
AND that their will be a relationship as Father to Son

Question for you my Brother and @praise_yeshua
When did the Counsel of Elohim designate amongst Themselves the Plan of Creation whereby mankind is the Purpose

Now i say "Purpose" for a specific Reason which the Scriptures do tell us Why but not When!!!
Click to expand...
There is some context of when relative to the "last days" in the Incarnation. It is relative to the "process" (change) of the faithful into a cohesive group gather together in perfection wherein the body of Christ is not complete without one another....

Heb 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

It is the hope of humanity in the growth of faith among successive generations among man. Many that are first shall be last and many that are last shall be first.

The "perfecting" of the saints.
 
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praise_yeshua said:
Character. These are statements relative to the Immutability of God's Character. I AM that I AM.
Click to expand...
Yourself @civic and i are on the SAME pages of scripture and mind/heart when we acknowledge the Eternal Being of the Son as the Word that was Elohim BEFORE the Incarnation.

In context of Eternity, they are immutable irrespective of time. They change not.
Click to expand...
and this is exactly the Point of emphasis of scripture = from Eternity

However, Elohim made a "change" in respect to Time and to Relationship

for Elohim created a New Relationship that did not exist in Eternity until the Counsel of Elohim
“Remember this, and show yourselves men;
Recall to mind, O you transgressors.
Remember the former things of old,
For I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is none like Me,
Declaring the end from the beginning,
And from ancient times things that are not yet done,
Saying, ‘My counsel shall stand,
 
DavidTree said:
Yourself @civic and i are on the SAME pages of scripture and mind/heart when we acknowledge the Eternal Being of the Son as the Word that was Elohim BEFORE the Incarnation.


and this is exactly the Point of emphasis of scripture = from Eternity

However, Elohim made a "change" in respect to Time and to Relationship

for Elohim created a New Relationship that did not exist in Eternity until the Counsel of Elohim
“Remember this, and show yourselves men;
Recall to mind, O you transgressors.
Remember the former things of old,
For I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is none like Me,
Declaring the end from the beginning,
And from ancient times things that are not yet done,
Saying, ‘My counsel shall stand,
Click to expand...

We often say the same/similar things....just differently.

To be clear, I see time relative to sequence. Even with God, one thought is predicated upon another thought. As such, God isn't "timeless". Such is a misnomer.

Many people treat me as a open theist but I'm not. I believe differently. I don't believe all things are "open" nor do I believe all things are "closed" relative to the future. I don't believe the future exists except in the "mind/plan of God". Even then, I believe those can and do change. Relative to "Character" and Immutability there is no change that can ever exist. Thusly, they can be said to be "timeless" but that really isn't accurate to me personally. They are ALWAYS true regardless of time.

Thusly, we have a condition/circumstances among mankind where God can be seen as changing but actually never does. It is within the very character of God to be the Incarnate Son. Thusly it is Immutable in the Character of God. God is reflective of what He creates. We are no different in this.

It is all about perspective. How do we see things as God sees them. Ultimately, relative to origins, it is paradoxical. I don't believe we are (mankind) the "center" of God's Universe but is there really a "center"? Relative to God?

Relative to relationships, There is no higher Rank than the Holy Trinity.
 
praise_yeshua said:
Relative to relationships, There is no higher Rank than the Holy Trinity.
Click to expand...
AGREE

We often say the same/similar things....just differently.
Click to expand...
AGREE

I don't believe the future exists except in the "mind/plan of God". Even then, I believe those can and do change. Relative to "Character" and Immutability there is no change that can ever exist.
Click to expand...
AGREE
 

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